mickydo

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  1. Hello Just a guy, Ill just change it to my liking... God created all people on the earth. Those people fall into two categories: The elect, and the non-elect; who each fall into their respective categories solely because that's the way God made them. Neither faith nor works have anything to do with this initial "sorting"; and at the Final Judgment the elect will be saved in heaven whereas the non-elect will suffer damnation and the eternal wrath of God. However, those people who are in the subset of the "elect" may, if they heed Jesus' call and exercise faith in Him, receive divine power to live Christian lives in a way they never could have done without Him; and at the Final Judgment they will attain a state of holiness or "sanctification". This is why we evangelize. God created all people on the earth. Those people fall into two categories: The elect, and the non-elect; who each fall into their respective categories solely according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved..(Eph 1:5) God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls(Rom 9:11; and at the Final Judgment the elect will be saved in heaven whereas the non-elect will suffer damnation and the eternal wrath of God. However, those people who are in the subset of the "elect" may, if they heed Jesus' call and exercise faith in Him, receive divine power to live Christian lives in a way they never could have done without Him; and at the Final Judgment they will attain a state of holiness or "sanctification". This is why we evangelize. Sorry bout all the strike through... ugh,, End times is way different than that.. we have not talked about at all yet. Getting back to how a person is saved... soteriology. One of the pieces I most want to get right is Mormon soteriology or doctrine of salvation. we've already been doing that.. Ill read this Ben Spackman take on it... thank you very much I'm interested in that...Question... why do you say "it's certainly not official LDS"? Why certainly not? ... it's close right?.. i'd like to get as close to official as i can. To answer your question... That last paragraph... If I choose to warn someone that they may face damnation.. (which would be rare and I would have to have a relationship with the person)... think of it as bringing light to a dark place. It may help them be spared judgement if that is their end. If they are elect then at least it defines an acceptable limit to what I will tolerate in the relationship and provides a deterrent. God knows how we are wired up as he does the wiring. Deterrents work for us... so God provides them in His word... For instance strong belief in doctrine of hell deters bad behavior for some at least. Christians are salt and light.. or at least supposed to be... Just the presence of the church in the world restrains evil. The expansion of evil just in our lifetime is directly proportional to the failure of the Christiandom to live up to its calling both institutionally and individually. back to your question.. and I think you will agree with this... In living out the walk of a Christian we have far more to think about with regard to walking in the spirit, walking in obedience and honoring God with our life choices... whether an individual is elect or not... only comes up in forums with other doctrine geeks... Thanks for the links.. im gonna go read. Mickydo
  2. Hi Jane doe.., I thank you Mike for the effort you put into this long answer. Unfortunately it seems to get lost in the length and doesn't actually address my question-- which is why I specifically asked for a direct short answer. Why you mind answering my question directly in a single sentence? Long answer .. because I'm tryin to be accurate... Heres shorter answer. I dont see God forcing faith on anybody in the bible or in our world. As far as heaven question goes.. I think one of my strengths is eschatology. Christendom has three basic systems of belief for end times scenario...Each would deal with your question about heaven pretty differently. I hold to dispensational pre-millennialism.. thats the term given to it. It holds to a more literal view of biblical texts. Heaven is actually a bit down the road.. Next major step in God's plan for humanity is the rapture, followed by a tribulation period, and then Christ's 1000 year reign on earth, and then great white throne judgement..... and finally heaven... Hard for me to answer about heaven because of the intervening steps till we get to that point. you see? Hey.. I discovered "fair Mormon podcast the other night.. I listened to several hours... I had to shut it down cuz I hit the brain overload point... I cannot believe how much there is to Mormonism... its really vast. The bible alone is a lifetimes worth of work... You all have the bible plus the other three books plus the additional historical information plus the statements of the prophets... Im sure theres more. Its a pretty big enchilada... but Ill tell you I still think the Catholic enchilada is bigger. I ask you if you have a Mormon expertise for couple reasons.. Folks that have an expertise explain the area of expertise better, tend to have a bigger picture of all the moving parts of it and the natural interest helps them want to communicate it. Not everyone does have a particular thing they get into deep.. jus askin. peace Mickydo
  3. In your view, does God A) force faith and heaven on a person regardless on their consent, or B) is that decision to embrace God's gift a choice on the person's part (choice=an action)? We may have different working definitions of faith.. Most Christians use Hebrews 11:1. Is that how you all define it??? Faith is a gift and is exercised in couple ways… I do not believe God can or would cause an individual to give a false statement of faith… but I think people can and do give false statements of faith to get by, to not rock the boat, to make others happy, to just get along and to give way to peer pressure. None of that honors God whatsoever. Its just a lie.. To contrast how God does use bonefide true faith lemme say… Demonstrating our faith makes visible to others something that they could never see otherwise. God uses your faith as a witness to the world around you. For instance,… If someone close to you dies and you mourn to a lesser degree than say other members of your family who have no belief in afterlife. They see your faith in something unseen as something real. You are testifying to something unseen (afterlife in this case) by making it visible to them.. God can use that… thats the proper use of faith. I don’t think is serves God to ever force one’s exercising of faith in prophecy. Many of us believe in God’s prophecies. The prophecies will come to pass regardless of an individuals exercising faith in them or not. I cant recall any bible stories about forcing faith.. Moving on… Heaven.. Does God force heaven on a person regardless of consent? This is a difficult question because… heaven is a generic term… lemme define heaven as the Millennial reign or the messianic kingdom it’s the same thing.. Not sure if you have these… this is the 1000 year period after tribulation when Christ sets up His earthly kingdom. Christ is returning for a bride and does so in the rapture event prior to tribulation. The current church is that bride… also described as “the body of Christ”. The bride is the fathers gift to the son. I do not believe it would be made up of individuals who do not love Christ or know Christ. It cannot be made up of perfect people .. for none exist. It is made up of redeemed individuals who were bought with a price (like brides were) and have received gifts (spiritual gifts) as a down payment (like a bride receives a ring). The groom goes off to prepare a place and returns for the bride once its ready at the fathers behest. Sorry didn’t get to part b… I hope this gives you some insight into what some Christians think.. Thanks Mike
  4. yeah Jane.. Im aware... oh whoa is me The first bible study my wife and I went to... starting about 12 years ago... did the book of Romans. The bible study was led by the Asst Pastor of the church. When we got to Romans 9.. we skipped it the whole chapter... along with chapters 10, and 11. So yeah.. my introduction to Chapter 9 was do not read it, study it, pretend its not there. I asked the pastor in the moment.. Why are we skipping this? He said because it talks about nations and it's a very complicated section..." The real question is... Do we get to pick a choose truth out of the bible? If God has inspired these texts, preserved them for us, and declares these are eternal truths... is'nt a bit dangerous to start yanking out bits we dont like? I think God has not given us enough information to understand this. Were not in place to answer back to God.. "this part sucks I dont accept it". That is what most do... If you leave this out, God's meaning of the words "elect" and "chosen" become seriously diminished. That has consequences because you begin down the road of turning the God of the bible into something He is not. I personally like John 10 on this difficult material.. sheep hear their masters voice and follow him. They recognize the masters voice, he leads them and they enter by Him, sheep follow Him, are known by Him and the sheep know Him. Such are the qualifications of the sheep Those who are not true sheep will surround themselves with preaching they want to hear. Pastors preaching straight outta the bible never need worry about offending the sheep. The sheep have no other shepherd. This from Apostle Paul.. some of his final words.. 2 Tim 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things,endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. Ill get to your other questions tonight after work... jane... have a good day! Mickydo
  5. Hello Again, 1. There is the population of the earth, as a whole. God foreknows individuals Eph 1:4 "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him." God prior to creation could have created a world in which ALL are saved.. NONE are saved or SOME are saved. We have to give God the freedom to define what kind of creation he plans on creating. Some people will not accept this fact and must have a God of there own choosing. 2. There is some subset of that population whom God has chosen to be saved--a.k.a. "justified". That subset is called the "elect". The rest of the earth's population are the "non-elect". One's classification in one of these two groups, is wholly unrelated to both a) one's actions, and b) one's decision to believe/exercise faith. Yes... We are helpless in our sinful nature to course correct... Eph 2:1 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins." Eph 2:4-5 " But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" So... Who has made us alive.. God has.. 3. One can be a member of the "elect"--a.k.a. "saved", a.k.a. "justified", but still not be sanctified. Sanctification is a process that never completes in this world, God's call on our life is effectual (no doubt) but it does not have to be immediate. “Like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow” (1 Peter 2:2). Peter encourages us to do the right thing but each of us have differing levels of cooperation and conviction. last thought.. If sin being present in the individual can cancel out being justified how is anyone saved? Sanctification is aspiring to genuine holiness but never realizing its culmination. (in this world).. 4. We evangelize, not because we expect to accomplish anything of ourselves; but because Jesus commanded us to. Its obedience and heavenly reward are two big motivations.. there are other benefits too. Jesus commanded us to evangelize, because He hopes that the "elect"/"justified"/"saved" will also be sanctified; and sanctification comes through (at minimum) making a conscious decision to accept God's word/true doctrine as it is preached through servants like Paul, Apollos, etc. God allows us to play a role in the construction of His church.. that is preaching the gospel and making disciples of those who respond. But how does God envision this process? Romans 10:13 " WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? God is using us to call out to the elect who respond. It's helpful to lead them in prayer to acknowledge the new beginning point of their life. In reality God chose this person long before "the foundations of the world". 5. The non-elect will always be the non-elect without regard to what they do, what they believe, whether they exercise faith, and whether they are ever evangelized. They were basically instruments of damnation from the moment of their creation. Insert Romans 9.. whole chapter... I cannot support how you phrased that.. let God say it... The most offensive text in the bible... most people cant even read it... Romans 9 "Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. "... God said it... Most people reject it out of hand... I think it's a test of trust.... Isaiah 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Genesis 18:25 "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” I support Gods clear text even though it offends my fleshly wisdom.. I trust that He can resolve what I cannot. Good nite! Mickydo I'll have some follow-up questions on this paradigm, but could you first let me know whether the above is an accurate restatement of your position?
  6. Hi Jane doe, John 3:16 in context is about "believers".. Do a word study on Johns use of the word "world" and you will see. Are you interpreting "world " as "humanity"... put "humanity" in place of the word "world" each time it comes up include verse 17 in this as well... it uses "world " three times...and see if the sentence makes sense. To most peoples sense it doesn't.. therefore the word "world" has different meanings. Everyone is a sinner... by that standard you shouldn't learn from anyone here in the forum... do you? By the same standard none of us can learn from you. Gal 1:12 is describing His personal experience. First century Apostles were a unique class of believer. This is not a prescription for the entire church.. It was his alone .. none of the other Apostles speak of such an experience or promise one to all believers for all time everywhere. lemme make two points outta the bible... one from jesus, one from paul Jesus the night before his death prayed this "Sanctify them by Your truth; Your word is truth" John 17:17. "Them" in this passage are His followers. Paul spent several years in Ephesus.. In his farewell speech in Acts 20 Paul tells his beloved Ephesians this... "Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. My point is.... both these texts refer us to the "The Word". What will keep us on the straight and narrow..? "the Word". Not subjective voices, promptings, leadings or however they are transmitted.. Both men refer us to God's Word.. which has the additional benefit of blessing us when we hear it, being eternal in nature and being God-breathed truth to which we outta test those "voices'. My first experience with Christianity was through Pentecostalism... Im embarrassed at what I did,, and what they taught me. I trusted them... it ended up really hurting me and my family for many years. We see the Word in a much different light these days.. Thanks Mickydo
  7. @ Jane Doe This passage that tripped you up... you said was blasphemy... is a difficult passage of scripture. I applaud your zeal for God. Its at two places Romans 9:18 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. and Exodus passages that talk about "hardening" Pharaoh's heart. As far the Exodus sections go...The word "harden" in the Hebrew is actually 3 different verbs and 5 different verb forms... the word appears over 20 times in Exodus. Having God harden someone's heart and then holding them accountable for a hardened heart strikes us all as a little unfair... That is not what is actually happening here.. God does not do that. I used teaching from Dr. Michael Brown.. he has a PHD in semetic languages... its a tough study but an interesting one. If you can find a good hebrew scholar in the LDS tradition with stuff online I'd like to know their name. The Romans passage is indicating God has complete sovereignty over humanity.. It does not mean God does not love humanity. thanks Mike
  8. @Just_A_Guy There's more to this, but I want to try to digest your other post first. What I'm getting from it so far, is that works have nothing to do with our being justified(a.k.a. "saved"); Yes God is the one who justifies... Rom 8:33 but they Believers may have a great deal to do with whether--or to what degree--we are sanctified Yes. One evangelizes, not to identify those souls that are justified--God has already chosen them--(but to invite the justified souls to also become sanctified.)..No We evangelize because Christ commands us to.. Great Commision Matt 28:19. Matthew Chapter 13... whole thing... are "Kingdom Parables". This is information not revealed in the old testament but applicable to the Kingdom Christ is already underway setting up... Not sure if you are aware but the symbols used in the parables once identified retain that association throughout the bible. Matt 13:3-9 Parable of the Soils .. very important concept for Protestantism... not sure if Mormonism highlights it as much. Seed = the word Soil = humanity both elect and non-elect birds = false teachers or errant doctrine thorns = worldly distractions The Word is the seed and is proclaimed throughout the earth...As Isaiah 55:11 says So will My word which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." ...We preach the gospel... as you can see from the parable several outcomes are possible... I think you get the parable... look at this statement from Paul in light of Parable of the soils... 1Cor 3 " What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted,Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. " Do you see the parallel to my previous post...? Am I reading you right? Because if so, then we may have a lot more in common than you think. Cool.. How is this taught in Mormonism? Thanks Mike
  9. Carboreendom, Your rude, I worked hard on that post.. You dont have to agree, but responding with mockery hurts your witness. I would ask you to reconsider why your here. Why are you even here in a religious forum were all we can do is share words, and you share that? Perhaps you need a break? These topics we discuss here in religious forums are the most important things to get right in life... These things carry eternal weight. On another note.. Just-a-guy gave me some links to priesthood and Godhood... gonna read those and start a different post. Also something I thought of last night... I think its true to say "Mormons can only be saved through knowledge of Joseph Smith". I'm not sure if you would agree with that. Is that a statement that I can run with? How can I change the statement so that all Mormons can agree on it? Appreciate opinions on that. Thanks mike
  10. hey all, Just a guy.. I read what you write but yeah i respond to others cuz there's just that many choices for me you see... sorry You ask a tough question... I want to use the bible as much as I can in answering it. So you can see where I get my opinion from.. Your question... "The million-dollar question, though, is whether a Christian can be truly "regenerate" without doing those works at all." We've all heard of people who feel called to Christ at an earlier point in life but ignore it... Im one. As Rom 1 points out we humans "suppress the truth in unrighteousness". We have that ability and exercise it.. sometimes for weeks.. sometimes for a lifetime. I think the experiences one has while resisting God's call on our lives can be beneficial to the church. Experience gained in overcoming addiction and worldliness is useful to God. Having an experienced life from the gutter gives God glory for his ability to redeem us from it. God chooses the weak things to shame the wise... 1 cor 2 Gods initial call on our life is irrevocable. Jesus says in John 6... "37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." What about the carnal Christian or carnal Mormon... who wants nothing to do with God, hates church and resists God for all his years? Surely they cannot be saved... right? Paul answers that in ... 1 Cor 3... "10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. I use color to marry up the building materials with the reward.. or lack of reward.. notice that though the carnal Christian works are burnt up.. nothing done for Christ in his life.. he himself is still saved though he has incalculable loss of reward and will be lesser in the Kingdom as a result. Believers whom god calls have a judgement before God. Did they exercise their gifts? Were they a pleasing servant, were they faithful with much or little (sound like some parables)? Each will be rewarded or not accordingly. Last point... Rom 8... 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. Each individual finding him/herself in the first group (foreknown) also finds themselves in each seceding group all the way to the last group (glorified). Who in this text is the actor... moving each along the way to the final state...? That is God the Father doing so. Notice that sanctification is not in the list... perusing holiness, striving for righteousness, combating sin in ones life.. thats sanctification. Its not in the list though because thats were you come in. Thats (in part) you cooperating with God's call on your life! Thats you determining what your reward will be. your sancification will be made complete... God has promised that. will God have to make up a little or allot... regardless... he himself will be saved... To answer the question... is a person regenerate though he has no works to show.. Yes.. Gods call is irrevocable. As Christ says again in John 6... "39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." Its a tough teaching.. I know. If you disagree, what is the correct interpretation of the texts cited... I want to know, I NEED to know. prayin for ya Mike
  11. Hi People, Hmm.. Somehow Im missing your answer. Im certainly not seeing specific answers dealing with the bible versus i cite, that would be "on point". instead I see contradiction... Not picking on you Jane doe.. just wanna scrutinize what you say. Tryin figure why am I not crediting your answer to my questions as an answer. You say "No one is advocating a works based salvation." ok i got that but to me the next statement contradicts.. you say " All of the verses I've quoted: they all have action words, do they not? "Repent" -- this is an action. "Have faith" -- this is an action. "Be born again" -- this is an action. These are all actions." Ive illustrated that God saves utterly.. its His action. Man only responds after God acts. Or at least ive tried to citing passages... For me these two statements of yours completely contradict. To summarize your statement.. we are saved by faith and actions... just not by works. Im hearing that. Im not willin to throw in the towel... gotta be away to communicate.. i think we may have different definitions to some of these terms. Repent = turn from sin= a response to gods act of regeneration, have faith= faith is a gift= it is exercised and does not constitute a work.. same with belief be born again= act of sovereign God= man plays no part, God mercies whom he mercies and harden whom he hardens jane doe you ask me this in the above post... " No obligation? Are you saying that you can just blow God off and ignore Him? Where does it say that in the Bible?" No Im not saying anything in the same universe as that.. Paul says it this way in Rom 4. " 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," Regenerate Christians often do the same things as unregenerate Christians. But.. The regenerate does so out a changed nature...in gratitude to God, not adding a thing to Christs completed work. The unregenerate out of obligation so as to demonstrate to God they are righteous through their obedience. Our works or action based righteousness is filthy rags.. as Isaiah says. God will accept His sons righteousness on our behalf.. substitutionary atonement? Rom 3..."This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.' ... believe..."hard stop" Thanks Mike
  12. Hey People, again good responses thanks, jane doe I love your "sack of potatoes" statement.. ha ha ha You made your point well... read on if you would... I have cited Jesus, Paul and John so far.. and Id like to get the mormon response to the biblical citations. In John 3 quote Jesus is explaining to his friend how to "see" and "enter" the kingdom of heaven(its in the context). In response to Jesus' "born again" statement Nicodemus asks "how?" Here is what Jesus our Lord says... You must be born again.’8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Jesus is describing the Fathers election. Jesus has purposely chosen the analogy to Gods electing purpose as being very much like wind. It is not an accident that Jesus has chosen an analogy that nobody except God controls ..the wind. We see the effect of it in spiritual regeneration, changed lives or being born again. Im sure your familiar with this passage Eph 2.... " 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast". Notice that pauls statement is past tense... It's past tense! You have been saved!... Jesus accomplishes something you and I could never do. The works for salvation you did today out of obligation are not necessary. This is the good news! Our response to this gracious gift is to please God.... to do more of what God finds acceptable. Not from a heart of obligation, but from a heart of gratitude. How does Mormon theology deal with these specific passages? How do you explain them differently than I do? I am doing my dead-level-best here... frankly I cannot see a works based salvation from these texts. thanks mike
  13. estradling75, Jesus in discussing being born again with Nicodemus. Jesus says " You must be born again.’8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Salvation is Gods action not ours.a profession of faith may be evidence of being born again only. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. No works invovled... thanks Mike