Progression between KIngdoms

[bytor2112]

I have read that their will not be progression between kingdoms. No moving from Telestial to Terrestrial or Terrestrial to Celestial. My friend believes that everyone will Eternally Progress.Progression within a Kingdom-yes, but to other Kingdoms? Is repentance available to a non-repentant member in the Spirit world? Any thoughts?

Hugh Hefner meets some missionaries and accepts the Gospel, sells Playboy and denounces his life's work and is faithful and is sealed in the Temple and then passes away. On to Exaltation?

Brother So and So is faithful all of his life, but falls in to a serious transgression after 45 years of faithful activity. He passes away before repentance. He loses his exaltation? Or does he have the opportunity to repent and still be with his family forever in the Celestial Kingdom?

[Misshalfway]

Justice and mercy.

God won't stop being either after we die.

[skalenfehl]

Justice cannot be denied, but mercy is extended to those who take advantage of the Atonement and accept the testimony of Jesus Christ before they are judged. For this reason Joseph Smith was able to prophesy by revelation, after seeing Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom, that those who would have accepted the gospel who did not have the chance in this life will inherit that kingdom. But to advance from one kingdom to the next after the judgment does not seem right or correct doctrine to me.

[Vanhin]

I have read that their will not be progression between kingdoms. No moving from Telestial to Terrestrial or Terrestrial to Celestial. My friend believes that everyone will Eternally Progress.Progression within a Kingdom-yes, but to other Kingdoms? Is repentance available to a non-repentant member in the Spirit world? Any thoughts?

Based on the scriptures that we have, now is the time to prepare to meet God. The saving ordinances that we know about, at this time, are all necessary to be performed in mortality; baptism through sealing. We must repent before the resurrection, at which time we are brought before the judgement bar of Christ, and will receive the glory that we can abide.

Hugh Hefner meets some missionaries and accepts the Gospel, sells Playboy and denounces his life's work and is faithful and is sealed in the Temple and then passes away. On to Exaltation?

If he has faith in Jesus Christ and in his atonement, fully repents of his sins, receives baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by proper authority, his sins will be remitted and he will be as clean as when my 8 year old daughter was baptized. If he then received all the saving ordinances, and remains true and faithful to his covenants till the end, he will be exalted with his faithful family members. However, only God can truly judge in both justice and mercy, and knows our thoughts and our hearts. But in principle, this is exactly what the gospel of Jesus Christ is about.

God cannot look upon sin with any degree of allowance, and we have all fallen short of the glory of God, and we all need Jesus Christ and the atonement in order to become cliean in preparation to return back into the presence of God.

Brother So and So is faithful all of his life, but falls in to a serious transgression after 45 years of faithful activity. He passes away before repentance. He loses his exaltation? Or does he have the opportunity to repent and still be with his family forever in the Celestial Kingdom?

God knows his circumstances, and ultimately will judge him righteously. But yes repentance is available until the resurrection. But I don't recommend that course of action. It is a much more difficult thing to fully forsake our sins without our bodies. As a general rule, now is the day of our repentance. :)

Those are some of my thoughts on the matter.

Regards,

Vanhin

[bytor2112]

I agree and have read comments by GA's, most notably Bruce R McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith say that their is not progression between kingdoms. But what about the scenario of the faithful brother who screws up at the end of his life and dies before he repents? He can still repent before the judgment, right?

[Vanhin]

I agree and have read comments by GA's, most notably Bruce R McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith say that their is not progression between kingdoms. But what about the scenario of the faithful brother who screws up at the end of his life and dies before he repents? He can still repent before the judgment, right?

Yep, that is right. Even if I knew I was destined to the lowest kingdom of glory, I would repent and try with all my might to have a change of heart in the spirit world. I certainly wouldn't give up. I would cry unto God for mercy.

Vanhin

[bytor2112]

I often wonder how someone would not want to repent or accept the Gospel when they have died. Surely they must know they have died?

[Vanhin]

I often wonder how someone would not want to repent or accept the Gospel when they have died. Surely they must know they have died?

Well, my understanding is that the veil will still not have been lifted at that point, and we will simply pass on from this life to the spirit world and retain the understanding that we have now. There will be others there, and it will be a lot like now.

I imagine those who were familiar with our theology will recognize that what we teach about the life after is reality. :) But I wouldn't doubt if there were preachers of other faiths in prison still going on with their own teachings.

We do know that Christ established a missionary effort in the spirit world and missionary work continues up there, trying to bring souls unto Christ through faith, repentance, and proxy baptism. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

[HiJolly]

I often wonder how someone would not want to repent or accept the Gospel when they have died. Surely they must know they have died?

I could write a book...

Things will not be all that clear on the other side, for many, many people. The veil is not lifted in its entirety until the final judgement. Some people will take a lengthy time to get to the point of realizing that they are dead. Most psycho-addictive behaviors will persist.

You think the New Age movement has got people confused in this life? Wait 'til you see it's effects in the next life. Oh, man.

HiJolly

[bytor2112]

Surely they must know that they don't have a body. That must send a pretty big clue that something isn't quite right.

[skalenfehl]

Surely they must know that they don't have a body. That must send a pretty big clue that something isn't quite right.

I believe he means this in the context of those who never mastered the flesh. Those who are addicted to, say, cigarettes, will still have that addiction but will suffer the pains of addiction and withdrawals without a body to satisfy or rehabilitate.

[bytor2112]

Right, but those who don't accept the gospel or wish to repent. They must know something is different. They won't see their spouse, kids, dog, home, whatever. No job to go to, no car, no tv, no golf, no college football.......I mean they know they have died. Or do they lose all memory of their earthly life and are just tormented by having desires that can only be fulfilled by having bodies?

[Guest User-Removed]

What happened to Playboy??????

bwahahahahaha

[skalenfehl]

Right, but those who don't accept the gospel or wish to repent. They must know something is different. They won't see their spouse, kids, dog, home, whatever. No job to go to, no car, no tv, no golf, no college football.......I mean they know they have died. Or do they lose all memory of their earthly life and are just tormented by having desires that can only be fulfilled by having bodies?

There are plenty of people who don't want any of 'that'. In this life people have a certain lifestyle and that is what they want. Even Lucifer and his third of followers rejected God's plan and they were there. There are people in today's world that don't feel comfortable going to the church, wouldn't feel comfortable going to the temple or even wish to give up their way of life. Many simply don't want to be encumbered by these things. That will not change in the next life, for we will all continue on the same path that we blazed in this life.

[HiJolly]

Right, but those who don't accept the gospel or wish to repent. They must know something is different.

It will take some time for the many who are not prepared for the change.

They won't see their spouse, kids, dog, home, whatever. No job to go to, no car, no tv, no golf, no college football.......I mean they know they have died. Or do they lose all memory of their earthly life and are just tormented by having desires that can only be fulfilled by having bodies?

They do not lose memory of this life - indeed, they will drag elements of this life with them, and re-create them as much as is possible, there. This will confuse them, as they will not be used to having the capability of changing their environment by the focus of thought. Much self-deception will be possible, if not probable. Particularly for those who in this life have worked actively with the Principle of Attraction, or who have consciously worked in the realm of Yesod.

This earth life has built into it the principle of limitation that makes possible the training that we receive. Its effects will be greatly reduced in the next life.

Have you read C.S. Lewis' book "The Great Divorce"? How about Carolyn Larsen's "My Travels in the Spirit World"? Good reads, both of them. Not doctrinal, no, but those who have ears to hear, will hear.

HiJolly

[bytor2112]

Um, Principle of Attraction.....Realm of Yesod??

[HiJolly]

Um, Principle of Attraction.....Realm of Yesod??

I seek for truth in all sorts of fun places. If it 'tastes' good, I incorporate it; if not, I leave it be. Otherwise, I doubt I'd come off a true Mormon, in the end....

Joseph Smith once said:

Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true “Mormons.”

--Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 316.

HiJolly

[bytor2112]

Just curious, what is The Principle of Attraction and Realm of Yesod?

[HiJolly]

Just curious, what is The Principle of Attraction and Realm of Yesod?

(sigh) If you are truly curious, you'll find out.

The PoA is a method for "changing their environment by the focus of thought"; the RoY is a place where one can "chang(e) their environment by the focus of thought" Both are dangerous, approach with caution (and the Holy Ghost).

HiJolly

[bytor2112]

Thanks- I should have said definition of terms, rather than curious. But will check it out anyways...... Edited June 26, 2008 by bytor2112
grammer

[Hemidakota]

I agree and have read comments by GA's, most notably Bruce R McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith say that their is not progression between kingdoms. But what about the scenario of the faithful brother who screws up at the end of his life and dies before he repents? He can still repent before the judgment, right?

It depends if his election was called and made sure or not.

If it was there is a price to pay by his own admissions. The atonement will not work for him during this process since he openly sinned and have not repented. We need to remember, all who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will come forth in the First Resurrection, many in the "morning" or early part. There is, however a circumstance referred to in the revelations, wherein certain individuals, because of disobedience, even though and because they have been sealed to it, will have to wait until the second resurrection to receive their glory, powers, and dominions. Such individuals who have been sealed unto exaltations, but have been disobedient, and yet have not committed MURDER to shed innocent blood, and have not DENIED GOD, His Son, and the Holy Ghost, after having received of a perfect knowledge and testimony of them, after a period of purging in the spirit world, having suffered the "buffetings of Satan" will be redeemed and come forth in the "First Resurrection," after having fully repented and after having made restitution. See Reference: D&C 132:19, 26

If not, then he will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom.

[Hemidakota]

There is another current thread where we delved into this subject.

I agree and have read comments by GA's, most notably Bruce R McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith say that their is not progression between kingdoms. But what about the scenario of the faithful brother who screws up at the end of his life and dies before he repents? He can still repent before the judgment, right?

It depends if his election was called and made sure or not.

If there is a price to pay by his own admissions, the atonement will not work for him during this process since he openly sinned and have not repented prior to death. We need to remember, all who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will come forth in the First Resurrection, many in the "morning" or early part. There is, however a circumstance referred to in the revelations, wherein certain individuals, because of disobedience, even though and because they have been sealed to it, will have to wait until the second resurrection to receive their glory, powers, and dominions. Such individuals who have been sealed unto exaltations, but have been disobedient, and yet have not committed MURDER to shed innocent blood, and have not DENIED GOD, His Son, and the Holy Ghost, after having received of a perfect knowledge and testimony of them, after a period of purging in the spirit world, having suffered the "buffetings of Satan" will be redeemed and come forth in the "First Resurrection," after having fully repented and after having made restitution. See Reference: D&C 132:19, 26

If not, then he will at least inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom.

[MrNirom]

I recently was involved in a Missionary lesson by the full time missionaries about this very thing. As they stated.. you are who you are when you die. All of your experiences that make you .. you.. you remain so. It is much harder for someone to accept the gospel.. though possible.. in the spirit world. From my understanding.. Spirit Prison is were you go for being a bad person.. not that you don't have a testimony of the gospel. There are many good people who die.. who go to paradise and are taught the gospel. So the Gospel is being taught in both places.. Paradise and Spirit prison. Just not sure if there is a library there that you can go get a copy of the bible to prove the teachers wrong.

[UintahJack]

bytor2112,

Thanks for posing the interesting question on progression between kingdoms. I don’t have the answer, but I’ve wondered about that too. In mormon.org under Plan of Salvation it says:

“Death will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil. If you choose to follow Jesus Christ during your life on Earth, you will be at peace in the spirit world. Those who choose not to follow Christ and do not repent will be unhappy.”

Of course we know that repentance is possible after death. If the dead couldn’t repent why would we do vicarious work like baptisms for the dead?

D&C 138:58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

I believe there can be progression within the kingdoms, but I’m not so sure there is progression between kingdoms. In D&C 98:18 Let not your hearts be troubled; for in my Father's house are many mansions, and I have prepared a place for you; and where my Father and I am, there ye shall be also. (See also John 14:2)

[UintahJack]

We will eventually find out the answer to your question, but I think it is best to repent in this life. If someone else has a reliable source on progression between kingdoms I would love to hear it. I just know now is the time to be prepared for your judgement. I don’t know who said it, but I wrote down the quote: “Our Heavenly Father could call me home at any time—and I want to be ready to leave this earth with the peace of a repentant and clean soul.”

Remember the scripture verses that say:

Alma: 34:33 …I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. 34. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

Mormon 9:14 “And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.”

:)