Role of the Bible in Mormonism


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Hey People,

again good responses thanks, 

jane doe I love your "sack of potatoes" statement..  ha ha ha  You made your point well... read on if you would...

I have cited Jesus, Paul and John so far..  and Id like to get the mormon response to the biblical citations.  

In John 3 quote  Jesus is explaining to his friend how to "see" and "enter" the kingdom of heaven(its in the context).  In response to Jesus' "born again" statement Nicodemus asks "how?"

Here is what Jesus our Lord says...   You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jesus is describing the Fathers election.

Jesus has purposely chosen the analogy to Gods electing purpose as being very much like wind.  

It is not an accident that Jesus has chosen an analogy that nobody except God controls ..the wind.  We see the effect of it in spiritual regeneration, changed lives or being born again.  

Im sure your familiar with this passage Eph 2....  " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast".  

Notice that pauls statement is past tense...  It's past tense!  You have been saved!... Jesus accomplishes something you and I could never do.  The works for salvation you did today out of obligation are not necessary.  This is the good news!

Our response to this gracious gift is to please God.... to do more of what God finds acceptable.  Not from a heart of obligation, but from a heart of gratitude.

How does Mormon theology deal with these specific passages?  How do you explain them differently than I do?  I am doing my dead-level-best here...  frankly I cannot see a works based salvation from these texts.

thanks

mike     

 

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3 hours ago, mickydo said:

Notice that pauls statement is past tense...  It's past tense!  You have been saved!... Jesus accomplishes something you and I could never do.  The works for salvation you did today out of obligation are not necessary.  This is the good news!

Some wisdom from Paul on the subject (Galatians 3:1-14)

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.  Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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@mickydo,

I think we've been very patient and polite so far.  And you have maintained a level of civility in your post, but your continued repetition of idea without the refutation of ours gives the impression that you are not interested in an answer.  You seem to be more interested in showing off how much you know.

You have not acknowledged our knowledge of the same verses you know.  (Most protestants tend to think that Mormons are just plain ignorant of the Bible.  We're not ignorant.  We have different interpretations than you do.  And they are perfectly valid ones.  But without that acknowledgement, you might as well talk to a stone wall.)
You have not answered any questions, while we have answered yours. 
You've even said we didn't answer your questions, when we did.
You continue to repeat yourself when we've already acknowledged what you've said.
You unwittingly continue to make our point, yet believe you're refuting it.
And you've gone out of your way to find disagreement when there is none to begin with.

I'd ask for more consideration on your part.  As I've told Larry, if you wish to truly learn anything, put some effort forth in trying to understand rather than refute.  Without that effort, this is really pointless.

Edited by Guest
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@mickydo at this point I find that you are repeating the same question over and over without making any attempt to acknowledge our answer or respond to our questions of you.

Since the only answer I can give you is the ones already given, and I see no reason for that to change anything until and less you are willing to discuss.  So I am stepping out because there are more productive things for me to do then go in circles with you.

 

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9 hours ago, mickydo said:

Our response to this gracious gift is to please God.... to do more of what God finds acceptable.  Not from a heart of obligation, but from a heart of gratitude.

No obligation?  Are you saying that you can just blow God off and ignore Him?  Where does it say that in the Bible?

What I read is "If ye love me, keep my commandments", "ye have been bought with a price" and "be ye therefore perfect, as your Father in Heaven is".  

How does Mormon theology deal with these specific passages?  How do you explain them differently than I do?  I am doing my dead-level-best here...  frankly I cannot see a works based salvation from these texts.

No one is advocating a works based salvation.  What we are arguing against is the false idea that Christ saves an inert sack of potatoes.  All of the verses you quoted: they all have action words, do they not?  "Repent" -- this is an action.  "Have faith" -- this is an action.  "Be born again" -- this is an action.  These are all actions.  

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Hi People,

 

Hmm.. Somehow Im missing your answer.  Im certainly not seeing specific answers dealing with the bible versus i cite, that would be  "on point".

instead I see contradiction...  Not picking on you Jane doe..  just wanna scrutinize what you say. Tryin figure why am I not crediting your answer to my questions as an answer.

You say "No one is advocating a works based salvation." ok i got that but to me the next statement contradicts..

you say " All of the verses I've quoted: they all have action words, do they not?  "Repent" -- this is an action.  "Have faith" -- this is an action.  "Be born again" -- this is an action.  These are all actions."

Ive illustrated that God saves utterly.. its His action.  Man only responds after God acts.  Or at least ive tried to citing passages... 

For me these two statements of yours completely contradict.  To summarize your statement.. we are saved by faith and actions... just not by works.  Im hearing that.

Im not willin to throw in the towel... gotta be away to communicate.. i think we may have different definitions to some of these terms.

Repent = turn from sin= a response to gods act of regeneration, 

have faith= faith is a gift= it is exercised and does not constitute a work.. same with belief

be born again= act of sovereign God= man plays no part, God mercies whom he mercies and harden whom he hardens

jane doe you ask me this in the above post... " No obligation?  Are you saying that you can just blow God off and ignore Him?  Where does it say that in the Bible?"

No Im not saying anything in the same universe as that..  Paul says it this way in Rom 4.

" For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"

Regenerate Christians often do the same things as unregenerate Christians.  But.. The regenerate does so out a changed nature...in gratitude to God, not adding a thing to Christs completed work.  The unregenerate out of obligation so as to demonstrate to God they are righteous through their obedience. Our works or action based righteousness is filthy rags.. as Isaiah says. God will accept His sons righteousness on our behalf.. substitutionary atonement?

Rom 3..."This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.' ... believe..."hard stop"

Thanks

Mike

 

 

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10 minutes ago, mickydo said:

You say "No one is advocating a works based salvation." ok i got that but to me the next statement contradicts..

How's this:  You seem (to me) to believe that the scripture indicates that salvation is based on the whims of God.

We say that salvation comes by the grace of God.  And that God has offered that grace to those who exercise faith unto repentance and obedience (hence those locations in scripture where Christ has instructed us to repent and obey, and thus explaining this scripture).  (This could be rephrased by saying we believe that faith unto repentance and obedience indicate our acceptance of God's grace; and that "wickedness" and "willful rebellion" are evidence of rejecting God's grace.)

Does that make any sense?

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34 minutes ago, mickydo said:

You say "No one is advocating a works based salvation." ok i got that but to me the next statement contradicts..

you say " All of the verses I've quoted: they all have action words, do they not?  "Repent" -- this is an action.  "Have faith" -- this is an action.  "Be born again" -- this is an action.  These are all actions."

Ive illustrated that God saves utterly.. its His action.  Man only responds after God acts.  Or at least ive tried to citing passages... 

For me these two statements of yours completely contradict.  To summarize your statement.. we are saved by faith and actions... just not by works.  Im hearing that.

I'm going to take this piece by piece, so hopefully I make sense.  I appreciate your sticking with this.  I'm going to talk about three ideas of how salvation is accomplished:

1) Works-based salvation: This is the idea that a person can work and earn their way to salvation based on their efforts.  This is clearly unBiblical and no one here has been advocating for it.

2) Sack-of-potatoes salvation: the idea that Christ saves a person with 0% action on their part-- it just happens.  This idea does not require a person to even accept Christ!  Instead a person who does not accept Christ and refuses repentance can be dragged into Heaven like a sack of potatoes.   This is also clearly unBiblical and the LDS people on here have been arguing against it. 

3) Faith in Christ saves but a person must accept Him: the title says it all.  We must accept Christ and His gift.  We are not sacks of potatoes, but His disciples. This is what LDS believe and have been advocating.  

34 minutes ago, mickydo said:

No Im not saying anything in the same universe as that..  Paul says it this way in Rom 4.

" For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

 

The big picture of Romans 4 is teaching people that idea #1 is false.  This does not mean that idea #2 is true as there are many verses which clearly contradict it.  

 

There are many other important things in your post, but I want to make sure this one comes across first.

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(Addressing another uber important topic.  Warning, I'm going to be super blunt here).

1 hour ago, mickydo said:

be born again= act of sovereign God= man plays no part, God mercies whom he mercies and harden whom he hardens

Your statement here is simply blasphemy. 

God is Love.  He desires EVERY person to spend the eternities with Him-- desires it with a passion and love beyond our comprehension.  It is simple blasphemy to suggest that He would force any person away from Him, or that He is responsible for anyone's eternal separation from Him.

The only way someone is not saved is that when Christ offers that person His amazing underserved Gift, is that person spits in His face, rejects the Gift, and walks away.  That person is then culpable for their own damnation.  

 

(Note: this is one of the reasons sack-potato-salvation is false: it dismisses the Love of God, dismisses human agency, dismisses much of scripture, and makes God responsible for everyone's damnation). 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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I feel that there is often confusion between LDS people and "traditional Christians" because the same words, such as heaven and hell, mean different things to different people.

This is where what @mickydo saying differs from @Jane_Doe, just for clarification.

“…for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” —2 Nephi 25:23

Elder Boyd K. Packer explained it this way. "Let me tell you a story.… There once was a man who.…incurred a great debt.…the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.… The debtor had a friend. He came to help.…He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer. ‘I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.’…And so the creditor agreed. The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’ ‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.’ ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible.” —Gospel Principles, 1992ed, pp. 75, 77

John 3:16 is quoted so often in Christian circles that it has almost become cliché but, it is the truth of the gospel of Christ.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Edited by Larry Cotrell
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6 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I feel that there is often confusion between LDS people and "traditional Christians" because the same words, such as heaven and hell, mean different things to different people.

This is where what @mickydo saying differs from @Jane_Doe, just for clarification.

“…for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” —2 Nephi 25:23

Elder Boyd K. Packer explained it this way. "Let me tell you a story.… There once was a man who.…incurred a great debt.…the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.… The debtor had a friend. He came to help.…He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer. ‘I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.’…And so the creditor agreed. The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’ ‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.’ ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible.” —Gospel Principles, 1992ed, pp. 75, 77

John 3:16 is quoted so much in Christian circles that it has almost become cliché but it is the truth of the gospel of Christ.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Note: "what we can do" = "believing".  

Anyone who believes John 3:16 believes that our action (believing) is required for salvation.  Sack-potato-salvation contradicts John 3:16.

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6 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

 

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Indeed...  It seems that Christain quote that alot...  The problem is that when LDS point out that "believeth in him" is an action, it is something that a person has to do...  Thus it is a Work that is required by the very scripture they quote...then they go all nuts and into denial and twist scriptures to deny the simple truth they just quoted

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1 hour ago, mickydo said:

Regenerate Christians often do the same things as unregenerate Christians.  But.. The regenerate does so out a changed nature...in gratitude to God, not adding a thing to Christs completed work.  The unregenerate out of obligation so as to demonstrate to God they are righteous through their obedience. 

Mike, you've ignored my last 2-3 posts here; but I will try again:

As a practicing Mormon, I don't seriously disagree with any of the above.

The million-dollar question, though, is whether a Christian can be truly "regenerate" without doing those works at all (or retain a "regenerate" state while deliberately perpetrating sins of increasing magnitude). If Jim Bakker was a regenerate Christian at some point in time, then why does his subsequent fraud and philandering matter to Evangelical Christians?

Or does it?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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29 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Elder Boyd K. Packer explained it this way. "Let me tell you a story.… There once was a man who.…incurred a great debt.…the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.… The debtor had a friend. He came to help.…He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer. ‘I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.’…And so the creditor agreed. The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’ ‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.’ ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible.” —Gospel Principles, 1992ed, pp. 75, 77

But note that in the parable, salvation from prison came first; and the debtor repays the Friend out of love and gratitude rather than obligation.  There's (arguably, in the parable; but I think it's quite clear in LDS teaching) an awareness by the debtor that it is utterly beyond his power to truly make the Friend "whole".  The debtor thenceforward lives in a state of grace, awaiting only a final salvation from the drudgery of mortality; and the real question is what (if anything) might happen to signal a fall from grace.

Re 2 Nephi 25:23, I think even Mormons tend to misread this.  The context is Nephi explaining why he and his people are so devoted to writing, preaching, rejoicing, etc. in Christ--because it is by Him that they were saved, after (or in other words, notwithstanding) all they could do themselves.  It's like a football coach at a postgame where his team won in spite of an abysmal defensive line; and he tells the press "we know that after all the efforts of our defense, it was our offense that won this game".  That might trigger a semantical debate among sports fans as to whether the defense really had anything to do with the victory; but outside of a narrow band of fanatics most folks will just shrug and say "Who cares?  Clearly the defense stunk and the offense carried the team."

 

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18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Note: "what we can do" = "believing".  

Anyone who believes John 3:16 believes that our action (believing) is required for salvation.  Sack-potato-salvation contradicts John 3:16.

I am not arguing for "sack-potato-salvation" as you define it, and I don't think @mickydo is either.

50 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

2) Sack-of-potatoes salvation: the idea that Christ saves a person with 0% action on their part-- it just happens.  This idea does not require a person to even accept Christ!  Instead a person who does not accept Christ and refuses repentance can be dragged into Heaven like a sack of potatoes.   This is also clearly unBiblical and the LDS people on here have been arguing against it. 

I agree that this is not biblical. But what Boyd K Packer said is that the man had paid his debt in part but not in full. I do not believe that we can earn even part of our salvation. It is purely by the blood of Christ for all who believe. 

But let me ask you all this, how do you all believe you will get into the Celestial kingdom?

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4 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I am not arguing for "sack-potato-salvation" as you define it, and I don't think @mickydo is either.

I agree that this is not biblical. But what Boyd K Packer said is that the man had paid his debt in part but not in full. I do not believe that we can earn even part of our salvation. It is purely by the blood of Christ for all who believe. 

But let me ask you all this, how do you all believe you will get into the Celestial kingdom?

A couple of thoughts here--

1) The Packer metaphor is limited.  I'm not a fan of it myself. 

2) You say "I do not believe that we can earn even part of our salvation."   I disagree with word "earn" here-- no we don't earn our salvation.  But we do hold responsibility for part of it (like believing).

3) "But let me ask you all this, how do you all believe you will get into the Celestial kingdom?"  I feel this would best be addresses on a different thread, as this is @mickydo's thread and we're still trying to dispel sack-potato-salvation here.

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21 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

But let me ask you all this, how do you all believe you will get into the Celestial kingdom?

By receiving the testimony of Jesus, which ultimately gives power to overcome by faith.  D&C 76:51-53.  Contrast with D&C 76:74-75 (terrestrial receive testimony of Jesus only in part or after death) and D&C 76:82 (Telestial would not receive the testimony of Jesus at all).

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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hey all,

Just a guy..  I read what you write but yeah i respond to others cuz there's just that many choices for me you see... :) sorry

You ask a tough question... I want to use the bible as much as I can in answering it.  So you can see where I get my opinion from..

Your question...  "The million-dollar question, though, is whether a Christian can be truly "regenerate" without doing those works at all." 

We've all heard of people who feel called to Christ at an earlier point in life but ignore it... Im one.   As Rom 1 points out we humans "suppress the truth in unrighteousness". We have that ability and exercise it..  sometimes for weeks.. sometimes for a lifetime.  I think the experiences one has while resisting God's call on our lives can be beneficial to the church.  Experience gained in overcoming addiction and worldliness is useful to God.  Having an experienced life from the gutter gives God glory for his ability to redeem us from it.  God chooses the weak things to shame the wise... 1 cor 2

Gods initial call on our life is irrevocable. Jesus says in John 6... "37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." 

What about the carnal Christian or carnal Mormon... who wants nothing to do with God, hates church and resists God for all his years? Surely they cannot be saved... right?

Paul answers that in ... 1 Cor 3...  "10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I use color to marry up the building materials with the reward.. or lack of reward..  notice that though the carnal Christian works are burnt up.. nothing done for Christ in his life.. he himself is still saved though he has incalculable loss of reward and will be lesser in the Kingdom as a result.  

Believers whom god calls have a judgement before God.  Did they exercise their gifts? Were they a pleasing servant, were they faithful with much or little (sound like some parables)?  Each will be rewarded or not accordingly. 

Last point... Rom 8... 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Each individual finding him/herself in the first group (foreknown) also finds themselves in each seceding group all the way to the last group (glorified).  Who in this text is the actor... moving each along the way to the final state...?  That is God the Father doing so.

Notice that sanctification is not in the list... perusing holiness, striving for righteousness, combating sin in ones life..  thats sanctification.  Its not in the list though because thats were you come in.  Thats (in part) you cooperating with God's call on your life!  Thats you determining what your reward will be.  your sancification will be made complete... God has promised that.  will God have to make up a little or allot... regardless... he himself will be saved...  

To answer the question... is a person regenerate though he has no works to show..  Yes.. Gods call is irrevocable.  As Christ says again in John 6... "39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." 

Its a tough teaching.. I know.   If you disagree, what is the correct interpretation of the texts cited... I want to know, I NEED to know.

prayin for ya 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited by mickydo
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On 9/24/2016 at 11:35 PM, mickydo said:

To answer the question... is a person regenerate though he has no works to show..  Yes.. Gods call is irrevocable.  As Christ says again in John 6... "39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." 

Its a tough teaching.. I know.   If you disagree, what is the correct interpretation of the texts cited... I want to know, I NEED to know.

You're right.  I just never realized that this was in the Bible.  That takes a load of my mind.  Oh the peace that comes from learning the truth about the gospel.  I had been working so hard worrying about whether I was "going to make it."  Now I realize I don't have to worry so much.  And it's all because of the words you've shared here.  You must have been sent like an angel. 

My life will never be the same now.  I can have such peace of mind knowing that nothing I do will ever change my eternal destiny.  I can be at peace knowing that any choices are all an illusion because everything is already set in motion -- irrevocable.

I can now reject all false gospels that say we need to be a light to the world.  How can I?  I'm just a worm.  Only God can be the light.  I can't radiate light.  It all seems so ridiculous now.  

What power did I think I had from God?  Priesthood?  How prideful to think that man can be called of God to do something for Him.  As if He needed man to do anything at all.  Preachers and ministers are obviously no better.  We just need to find our own individual path.  I don't need a church when I have the Bible.  What do I even need the world for?  I need to dedicate my life to studying the Bible in a secluded location where I have no worldly cares.

Now that I've accepted the TRUE gospel, I will go ahead and do all those things I refused to do simply because I feared hellfire and damnation.  I've accepted it.  I know I am saved.  Nothing can change that now.  Such freedom.  Such power.  Such peace!

Edited by Guest
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Carboreendom,

Your rude,  I worked hard on that post.. You dont have to agree, but responding with mockery hurts your witness.  

I would ask you to reconsider why your here.  Why are you even here in a religious forum were all we can do is share words, and you share that?  Perhaps you need a break?

These topics we discuss here in religious forums are the most important things to get right in life... These things carry eternal weight.

 

On another note.. Just-a-guy gave me some links to priesthood and Godhood...  gonna read those and start a different post.

Also something I thought of last night... I think its true to say "Mormons can only be saved through knowledge of Joseph Smith".   I'm not sure if you would agree with that.

Is that a statement that I can run with?  How can I change the statement so that all Mormons can agree  on it?  Appreciate opinions on that.

Thanks

mike

 

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16 minutes ago, mickydo said:

"Mormons can only be saved through knowledge of Joseph Smith".   I'm not sure if you would agree with that.

Please note that that statement is not true in any way, regardless who who thinks it or not.

All humans, regardless of their belief, can only be saved through Jesus Christ.  The end.  Full stop.  Christ is the only way.  Even if you don't believe in him, he is the only way.  If, eventually, a person is saved, it will be through Jesus Christ.

I'm not even sure what "knowledge of Joseph Smith" means, but whatever it means, it has no power to save a person.  And I learned that as a life-long member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who has an overwhelming testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God as much as Moses, or Isaiah, or Peter were prophets of God.

(In Carb's defense, I'll say you aren't exactly picking up on what's been said earlier in the thread.  Even his snarky reply repeats what has already been said - in reverse / sarcastically.  I think maybe he's saying he's giving up because you don't appear to be understanding / interested in the answers you're getting.)

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23 minutes ago, mickydo said:

Also something I thought of last night... I think its true to say "Mormons can only be saved through knowledge of Joseph Smith".   I'm not sure if you would agree with that.

Is that a statement that I can run with?  How can I change the statement so that all Mormons can agree  on it?

"Mormons can only be saved in and through Jesus Christ." 

You can run with that one. 

Here is a good talk that I think clarifies how LDS feel.

Have You Been Saved? by Dallin H. Oaks

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1 hour ago, mickydo said:

I would ask you to reconsider why your here.  Why are you even here in a religious forum were all we can do is share words, and you share that?

At least you were aware enough to appreciate good satire.  Oh yes, it was pretty good.

I've been here about a year.  I know what this site is about.  You've been here a week.  Do you know what this forum is about? 

Open discussion and sharing understanding is one thing.  Debate is another.  If you want debate, then openly and honestly state it.  But don't claim the high ground of "merely wanting to share" and then refuse to accept our own declaration of our own beliefs.  If you consider my post rude, consider what you've sounded like to me.

Where's the list of incorrect translations?

There is no list.

I'm just asking for the list.  Where is it.

We just told you.  There is no list.

Why would there not be a list?  If that's what you claim then you should have a list.

We don't need a list.  That's not what we do.

Then you can't back it up.  Ok.

This may not be your actual words.  But that is what you sound like.  The primary characteristic of your posts that says this is a debate rather than an open discussion is that you seem to completely exclude the concept of "personal interpretation".  Any scripture, any verse, any word can be interpreted.  You've got your interpretation and we've got ours.  But you don't allow for anyone's interpretation but your own to be reasonable.  

We recognize that by reading a verse, you could logically come up with your interpretation.  We've got a different one  and believe ours to be correct. You on the other hand, believe yours to be correct (which is fine) and believe we just don't have any idea what we're talking about (which is not fine).  That is not open discussion.  That is you puffing yourself up as a prophet and teacher over us when, at the same time, you confess there are no more prophets.

I'd ask YOU a question (or series of questions):  If I tell you that I've accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior, and NO physical works or signs are required as an indication of that, then why do you feel like you can say that just because we do some works that we DON'T accept Jesus?  Is there something wrong with it?  If not, then why the issue with it?

I'd really ask YOU to consider what you hope to accomplish here.  If you're really trying to learn about our faith, then try to understand what it is we're saying before you try to refute it.  And above all, don't tell us that we don't believe what we say we believe.

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