The Refugee Thing


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Can someone help me with what the Church wants us to do with refugees?

I almost turned of the Women's Conference tonight because it started with 'the refugee thing,' and I had a hard time deciding to open my heart to whatever else was going to follow.

Here are my thoughts. We can look around the world, and right here in the US, to see what some refugees have done - even those who have been in their new country for some years. It doesn't have to be a terrorist event; the behavior of refugee men with European women ought to be enough to make us think twice about admitting thousands of unvetted refugees. For many reasons, I don't find a need to embrace the refugee when there are Americans and veterans who need our help. 

We had a presentation in RS about 'others' living in our town. I almost got up and left because I found it so racist. Newsflash, white people - saying how 'wonderful' and 'sweet' these 'others' are as if you are talking about children doesn't make you look open-minded, it makes you look patronizing. You might as well be patting the 'other' on the head. Maybe because I've lived in big east coast cities around all kinds of people - and know that they are not all wonderful - I find this blindness to reality to be off-putting. By way of background, I'm in a college town ward full of young people <35, mostly from BYU, Utah, and Idaho; people who apparently haven't seen much of the world. They want to be open to everything and it bothers the heck out of me that they don't seem to know what's going on in the world. Actually, I know they don't as many will come right out and say that they don't follow the news. 

I'm sure some will think I am a terrible person, but I'd rather be a terrible person with my own culture and legal system (and not some kind of bifurcated Sharia/Constitutional system) and not look up in 5-10 years and find it changed beyond recognition. 

So, this terrible person wants to know what does the Church want us, as LDS and as women in RS, to do about refugees? How blind are we to be to what is going on with unvetted refugee populations in other parts of the world? They ain't building that wall in Calais for nothing...

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Where did you hear that we don't vet refugees?

Anyways I think the Church wants us to do good unto our enemies, love those that hate us. I think they want us to exhibit christlike charity to our brothers and sisters fleeing the turmoil of ISIS and other terrorists.

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2 hours ago, dahlia said:

They ain't building that wall in Calais for nothing...

I actually served in Calais on my mission! (and Roubaix, France and Brussels, Belgium, two other cities with large Muslim populations.  I have knocked numerous doors in Brussels' now infamous district of Molenbeek, and attended church at the chapel there).

Having had daily contact with the Muslim population of Northern France, having made a number of close friends that are Muslim, and having later studied Islam in considerable depth, I can say that discussions about refugees and their effects on society do not lend themselves to easy answers because the underlying issues are super complex and result from an interaction of religion, non-religious cultural practices, poverty, and serious European social issues that may or may not apply in an American setting.  However, I have come away from these experiences with basically a pro-Muslim view, while acknowledging the challenges the West faces regarding Islamic immigration.

I have also come to appreciate the fact that not all Islam is the same, just as not all Christianity is the same.  There are many "denominations" within Islam, which have sharply varying views regarding sharia law (including what exactly "sharia" is), the Qu'ran, historical facts about Muhammad, and the like.  Some of these "denominations" are exceptionally similar to Mormonism in many ways (Ahmadiyya). 

A very good book to explore these issues in more depth is The Islamist, by Ed Husain.

Anyhow, from the above, I do support refugees, but I support doing this the right way - vetting them beforehand (to root out the ones who are going to cause trouble), not shoving them into refugee camps, and prosecuting those who break the law to the fullest extent, including those who support terrorist groups and preach hatred.  From what I can tell, Europe has not done these three things.

I could go on for pages discussing how Europe treats its Muslim population, the ghettoization of immigrants in Europe, the effects of the welfare state on radicalization, and how lack of education regarding Islam is leading to increased radicalization of marginalized youth.  However, for the purposes of this post, the above is sort of an approximation of the direction I am leaning based on my observations of Islam, the Middle East, and Europe.

For the record, I believe that nuclear North Korea is a far more grave and immediate threat to the future of America than massive Muslim migration or creeping sharia.

 

Edited by DoctorLemon
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You are free to have your own reaction of course.

I personally have been very saddened that some members have put their politics, and the words of political demagogues, ahead of our church leaders, who are encouraging us members to do one of the most Christlike actions possible:

Quote

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Matt. 25:35

 

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10 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

The only thing that I can think of is to go the 'I was a stranger' website and print out suggestions for helping refugees

Hmm looked at 'I was a stranger' website. Not much there. Looked at my towns refugee website. Request for canned goods and request for furniture. I guess the lesson might be to provide the information and ask the sisters what they think we should do.

My take on things is the church has asked us to do something to help so we should do something to help. There are low involvement options:

donate to humanitarian aid fund. We could miss another two meals for one month and donate the cost of those two meals to humanitarian aid.

my town is asking for a certain list of canned goods so we could have a food drive. One week only. If you miss that week give to missionaries. 

Jesus was a refugee. LDS pioneers were refugees, beloved Bro Utchdorf. The church has asked us to help. How can we say no? 

If you don't want to get help someone personally, pick a low contact option.

 

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33 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Thanks! You don't think the church is saying, please  DO something?

Yes, but a Sunday meeting isn't, IMO, the place to organize a tactical approach to helping refugees.  Sunday meetings are for teaching the doctrine.   We are doing the actual organizing and planning of "get this stuff and take it to these locations" in our RS activity for October.

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14 minutes ago, zil said:

Yes, but a Sunday meeting isn't, IMO, the place to organize a tactical approach to helping refugees.  Sunday meetings are for teaching the doctrine.   We are doing the actual organizing and planning of "get this stuff and take it to these locations" in our RS activity for October.

Thank goodness! Much less stressful. So ...my usual method is to divide the conference talk up into 5 sections, put people in buzz groups, have them read part of the talk in their buzz groups, report on what they read, and set a goal for the next week. I guess I could just skip the goal setting part. By the time Relief society rolls around, the sisters are falling asleep so buzz grous wakes them up. Small groups are easier for the shy and language challenged and the lonely really need the interaction. But initially everyone hates to move. I brought chocolate today as a bribe!

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21 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Thank goodness! Much less stressful. So ...my usual method is to divide the conference talk up into 5 sections, put people in buzz groups, have them read part of the talk in their buzz groups, report on what they read, and set a goal for the next week. I guess I could just skip the goal setting part. By the time Relief society rolls around, the sisters are falling asleep so buzz grous wakes them up. Small groups are easier for the shy and language challenged and the lonely really need the interaction. But initially everyone hates to move. I brought chocolate today as a bribe!

I see no reason to skip the goal-setting part.  Goals can be almost anything, whether it's about the doctrine, or praying for guidance or refugees, or researching places which aid refugees in your area, and what they need...  I think setting a goal to act on the doctrine just taught is a good idea.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

This might seem like an odd response, but I want to share an opinion piece from the Deseret News.  The reason it might seem odd is because it's not about refugees, but about Black Lives Matter...yes I am aware that you are a black woman.  I also understand that blacks, like any other group, don't necessarily all agree about BLM or any other issue.  That's fine.  I'm sharing it though because I think the article makes a great point that applies to the refugees as well as BLM.  I shared it on my Facebook page too, as I hope all my LDS friends will read it and consider it.

 

Quote

My View: Black Lives Matter: Mormon Lives Matter

Editor's note: This op-ed contains graphic language and accounts of violence against early Latter-day Saints that some readers may find disturbing.

I have grown dismayed as I have watched racial violence continue in incident after incident. One response from the black community has been to organize the Black Lives Matter movement. The reply from some Americans is to assert that All Lives Matter. It is a stunning retort that wholly misses the point of the Black Lives Matter movement and demonstrates an inability for some Americans to attempt to stand in someone else’s shoes. Mormons in particular need look no further than the 1830s and their own troubled sojourn in Missouri to find ample reason to take a stand against racial injustice.  

You can read the rest here: 
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865663240/My-view-Black-lives-matter-Mormon-lives-matter.html

 


The point being that our own history of being refugees should help us understand why we need to extend a hand to modern day refugees.  

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Guest LiterateParakeet

Can I just add...I don't think you are a terrible person for feeling this way Dahlia.  I think most "Conservatives" feel the same way you do.  (At the same time, I assure you that I am not some <35 something who has not experienced anything of the world.)  

To me it boils down to this...many members of the church are conservatives (you might have guessed, I'm not).  But before our political affiliations, whatever they may be, we are first and foremost Latter Day Saints.  We profess to believe in a prophet and modern day leaders.  It strikes me as odd that Conservatives are happy to follow our Leaders when they agree with them on issues like gay marriage, but when the Leadership comes down on a more "Liberal" point of view (such as what we are talking about here, supporting the refugees) then they (not just you) cry foul.  

As I see it both sides, Conservative, and Liberal fall short of the mark.  It is confusing sometimes, this I know well, but when in doubt, we need to remember that God's ways are not our ways.  His views transcend politics.  Pros, Benson talked about this...that if the Prophet's view conflicts with your point of view, then you are the one that needs to adjust.  As someone, more Liberally minded, I've had to make some adjustments and accept the Lord's will on things I don't fully understand.  Conservatives need to do the same.   

We are Latter Day Saints, first and foremost.  

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Guest LiterateParakeet
17 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I am teaching Refuge from the storm in one month. Any suggestions gladly received!

Do you know any Social Workers?  There is a sister in my ward who is a social worker at a local school.  She has all kinds of resources.  For example, she let us know about a school that collects used clothes (from infant to adult) and they provide them FREE to community members in need,  There are a lot of refugees in this area (so I am told) that benefit from this.

I think sometimes people have good intentions but don't get around to actually gathering up the clothes, and driving them over.  So my daughter and I talked about doing a "clothing drive".  It would be simple really.  Just announce in the ward that we are collecting clothes (and why)  specify a date that we will drive around and pick them up if people will leave them on the porch.  

Then on the planned date, pick up the donations and deliver them.  

"I was naked, and ye clothed me."  

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38 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Can I just add...I don't think you are a terrible person for feeling this way Dahlia.  I think most "Conservatives" feel the same way you do.  (At the same time, I assure you that I am not some <35 something who has not experienced anything of the world.)  

To me it boils down to this...many members of the church are conservatives (you might have guessed, I'm not).  But before our political affiliations, whatever they may be, we are first and foremost Latter Day Saints.  We profess to believe in a prophet and modern day leaders.  It strikes me as odd that Conservatives are happy to follow our Leaders when they agree with them on issues like gay marriage, but when the Leadership comes down on a more "Liberal" point of view (such as what we are talking about here, supporting the refugees) then they (not just you) cry foul.  

As I see it both sides, Conservative, and Liberal fall short of the mark.  It is confusing sometimes, this I know well, but when in doubt, we need to remember that God's ways are not our ways.  His views transcend politics.  Pros, Benson talked about this...that if the Prophet's view conflicts with your point of view, then you are the one that needs to adjust.  As someone, more Liberally minded, I've had to make some adjustments and accept the Lord's will on things I don't fully understand.  Conservatives need to do the same.   

We are Latter Day Saints, first and foremost.  

IMO, you are confusing "conservative" with "Republican" - nothing like the same thing.  Of course, the media conflate them as well, so I guess we can't go by the actual meaning of the word...  Still, I resist the use.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
19 minutes ago, zil said:

IMO, you are confusing "conservative" with "Republican" - nothing like the same thing.  Of course, the media conflate them as well, so I guess we can't go by the actual meaning of the word...  Still, I resist the use.

Okay, fair enough I guess. I'm Liberal but not Democrat. Still it seems to me Conservative is more applicable than Republican. 

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16 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Okay, fair enough I guess. I'm Liberal but not Democrat. Still it seems to me Conservative is more applicable than Republican. 

There is nothing in the real meaning of the word "conservative" which is contrary in any way to the gospel, including the mandate to help the poor and be generous and not greedy, to be wise in our use of natural resources and not waste them, etc. etc.  The word has been unfairly commandeered by media and politicians and turned to something it's not.  So has the word "liberal".  I reject the use, that's all.  I'm actually having a hard time figuring out why one could not be both conservative and liberal at the same time - if you got rid of the politicians and media.  The original words do not seem contradictory to me at all.

This has been a test of the dictionary system.  We now return you to our regularly scheduled "modern" use of words.

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52 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Okay, fair enough I guess. I'm Liberal but not Democrat. Still it seems to me Conservative is more applicable than Republican. 

 Lit-I think people like you are more "Moderate" then what I'd call a liberal. You are extremely open minded to all sides, not just the "left". Most modern liberals are extremely close minded to all views that aren't their own.

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Okay... in a macro sense...

Nothing in the gospel nor the words of the LDS prophets - old and current - conflict with the current Republican nor the current Democrat stance on the matter.

The problem I see is the myopic view of members of the Church when they are asked to DO something.  They think all that means is to open your doors (and borders) to refugees to help them.  So that, when the prophets make a statement to help refugees, they believe that the prophets are saying vote Democrat.  This is not the only way to DO something and feed the hungry, etc.

The best example is when you see a homeless person on the street.  Would you say that the only way to DO something to help this person is to bring him to live in your house?  Of course not.  We have tons of programs for these people that doesn't involve them having to live with you.

In the same manner, we have an election cycle that has 2 very different ways to help with the Syrian refugee situation.  The Democrats want to bring them into the US and help them here.  The Republicans want to keep them in Syria and help them there.

Now, I spent 3 years from 1995-1998 helping Bosnian refugees in Florida.  It was a program run by the Baptist Church.  My job was to provide a way for the refugees to assimilate into American life.  It was an easy job - place them into apartments, place them in English classes, help them find jobs or gain marketable skills, organize activities - watching American movies, enjoying an American nightlife, hosting American parties.  It was super easy and very much needed.  The Bosnian refugees I still have contact with today are now living productive American lives.  Like me, a Filipino, these Bosnians respect the American land and American people and culture and laws while at the same time retaining their Bosnian heritage.  This is, of course, a great way to help refugees.  But, the number of Bosnian refugees in the Yugoslavian Civil War was a lot smaller compared to the population drain in Syria and neighboring regions today.  Assimilating that large of a population is very very tough to do.  A culture clash is inevitable.

But, this is not the only way to help refugees.  The IDEAL way is to do what the Americans did with the Filipinos.  Instead of bringing Filipino refugees from the Spanish-Filipino-American wars into the US, the Americans closed their borders and helped the Filipinos in the Philippines to establish a stable government.  We went from an American territory to an American commonwealth and eventually an independent sovereign nation.  When you have a situation like Syria where you have massive population drain, the region will be desolate for generations.  It is a better way for allied nations to commandeer a safe zone in Syria with allied forces for defense.  Then Syrians can migrate into the safe zones which will give Syrians the power to rebuild, organize, and eventually take Syria back for Syrians, rather than have allied nations give Syria to Syrians.  A nation can only exist as a nation if the people are invested in their own nation.  You can't do that when all your able-bodied, good, and honest citizens have fled Syria.

So, as an LDS person, you don't have to feel guilty for not supporting the population drain out of Syria.  We have tons of avenues to provide aid for Syrians in Syria.  To follow the words of the prophets, we can use such avenues to help.  One way is to make sure you got the proper leadership that can build that safe zone and provide the ability for Syrians to take back Syria.

Edited by anatess2
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