Sex boosts your belief in God?

[Latter-Day Marriage]

There are a number of news reports out today about a study done at Duke University in North Carolina that links having sex frequently with a  greater levels of spirituality and belief in God.  The theory is that it has to do with the hormone oxytocin that is released during orgasm opening up a pathway for spiritual feelings. (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/having-sex-believe-in-god-research-religion-duke-university-patty-van-cappallen-a7330076.html)

While this study may result in a bunch of jokes on late night talk shows, I do think there is something to it based on my own experience.  I wouldn't say it makes any difference in terms of testimony or commitment, but an unfulfilling sexual relationship with one's wife does lead to an emotional shutdown (hardening of the heart?) that I think can and will affect one's ability to feel and the spirit.

The study only looked at men.  Ladies, would any of you say there is a similar effect for you? 

[NeedleinA]

52 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

but an unfulfilling sexual relationship with one's wife does lead to an emotional shutdown (hardening of the heart?) that I think can and will affect one's ability to feel and the spirit.

Agreed.

[anatess2]

Well, there is that point in the activity where you feel close to or in heaven with the angels, you are so happy.

[anatess2]

Anyway, this reminds me of that controversial novel by Dan Brown...

[Guest]

Like this:

 

[ldsister]

"Ladies, would any of you say there is a similar effect for you?"
Nope. 

I find these findings troubling because to me, they cast religious belief in the light of a hormone-driven belief rather than something based on reality. 
 

Edited September 29, 2016 by ldsister

[MrShorty]

I decided to click through and read the article.

Is the connection to sex warranted? If I read the article correctly, the study showed a connection between "elevated levels of oxytocin" and "self-reported spirituality". How closely do these "elevated levels of oxytocin" mimic the "spikes" in oxytocin due to sexual activity? Did they give these men a patch that continuously elevated their levels of oxytocin, or did they get occasional doses from other sources? My understanding is that men get a spike of oxytocin around sexual activity/orgasm, so I can the possible connection, but it seems like factors such as dose and persistance would be important in extending the connection between oxytocin and belief in God to sex and belief in God.

Has anyone seen better accounts of the original study that could comment on methodology?

[Latter-Day Marriage]

1 hour ago, ldsister said:

"Ladies, would any of you say there is a similar effect for you?"
Nope. 

I find these findings troubling because to me, they cast religious belief in the light of a hormone-driven belief rather than something based on reality. 
 

I can understand that concern, but there is a very real connection between the physical and the spiritual.  That's why we have the WoW for example, if your body is crying out to have some addiction fed, you are going to have a hard time hearing the still small voice.

[jerome1232]

Isn't oxytocin also released during cuddling, holding, hugging activities as well? Perhaps "men who experience physical affection are more open to spirituality" might be a better more accurate description.

[unixknight]

So THAT'S why atheists often seem so  grumpy... 

[MrShorty]

4 hours ago, jerome1232 said:

Isn't oxytocin also released during cuddling, holding, hugging activities as well? Perhaps "men who experience physical affection are more open to spirituality" might be a better more accurate description.

I do not know all of the endocrinology of oxytocin (God alone may know all of the endocrinology of oxytocin at the moment). From what I have heard (from a few sources, but mostly an LDS marriage coach), men and women are different in this regard (Rumor has it that it is related to how oxytocin interacts with testosterone). Women have a much stronger oxytocin response than men, and, as you note, it is in response to many different activities. I believe that men have an oxytocin response to these activities as well, but it is weaker than in women. I understand that there is evidence that the only time a man's response is even close to a woman's stronger response is in response to sexual activity/orgasm.

So, maybe with this and other data, we could draw the conclusion you draw, and maybe not. This is often the frustration with "pop-science" articles like this is that there really is not a good treatment of the data to help us understand the conclusions being drawn or justify the conclusions being drawn.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

4 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I do not know all of the endocrinology of oxytocin (God alone may know all of the endocrinology of oxytocin at the moment). From what I have heard (from a few sources, but mostly an LDS marriage coach), men and women are different in this regard (Rumor has it that it is related to how oxytocin interacts with testosterone). Women have a much stronger oxytocin response than men, and, as you note, it is in response to many different activities. I believe that men have an oxytocin response to these activities as well, but it is weaker than in women. I understand that there is evidence that the only time a man's response is even close to a woman's stronger response is in response to sexual activity/orgasm.

So, maybe with this and other data, we could draw the conclusion you draw, and maybe not. This is often the frustration with "pop-science" articles like this is that there really is not a good treatment of the data to help us understand the conclusions being drawn or justify the conclusions being drawn.

Also, as I recall men tend to have a much lower oxytocin level compared to women in normal circumstances.  Orgasm is the only thing that gets them into the range of what is normal for a woman which can explain why women tend to be more active in church than men generally.

[Guest]

On 9/30/2016 at 3:20 PM, Latter-Day Marriage said:

Also, as I recall men tend to have a much lower oxytocin level compared to women in normal circumstances.  Orgasm is the only thing that gets them into the range of what is normal for a woman which can explain why women tend to be more active in church than men generally.

I was with you until you started talking this way.  I'm finding @ldsister's comment to be more applicable.

I understand that we can't completely separate the physical and spiritual.  But this goes a step further and says,"Are you not feeling the Spirit enough?  Then, here, have some oxytocin."  I realize that's probably not how you meant it. But it could easily turn into that.

I know from personal experience with depression that there are times when the Spirit can overpower the physical.  I was in a moderate bout of depression (this is a level that most others would be curled up in a ball and crying--but I'm used to it).  In the midst of that, the Lord came and "pulled it all away" and put it on a shelf for a bit.  He then taught me something spiritual to help me over the hurdle.  Then the stuff on the shelf came back to me.  But I was then able to deal with it because of the help I received.

I'm quite aware of the chemicals in my body.  And there was no spike in oxytocin when this happened.

[MrShorty]

One thing to remember Carb, is that the results of these studies are statistical in nature (which is usually glossed over or ignored in the popular literature like this). The referenced article does not reveal any of the statistics, but they would usually look something like, of the 500 men in the control group, 5 more than in the control group expressed stronger religious feelings in response to the oxytocin. Some statistical hand waving, and we have deemed that this represents a statistically significant result, indicating that there is some kind of relationship between oxytocin and these feelings. (I believe that LDM has a stronger background in statistics than I do, and could possibly comment further). These kinds of things are rarely 100% perfectly correlated, so there are always going to be exceptions (even within the study itself), and one study does not even begin to attempt to resolve all of the other factors at play in religiosity (or whatever is being studied at the time). As you note, the results of this study do not seem to relate to your lived experience, but neither does your lived experience invalidate the results of the study. The authors themselves in the linked paper warn against over-generalization.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, MrShorty said:

One thing to remember Carb, is that the results of these studies are statistical in nature ... The authors themselves in the linked paper warn against over-generalization.

I agree with your forensic analysis of this discussion.  My post was more about the spiritual/emotional aspects of trying to make a direct link between a specific hormone/chemical and spirituality.  It is not a matter of statistical variation.  It's just a dangerous road to go down.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I understand that we can't completely separate the physical and spiritual.  But this goes a step further and says,"Are you not feeling the Spirit enough?  Then, here, have some oxytocin."  I realize that's probably not how you meant it. But it could easily turn into that

Yeah, I would say it can be a factor in making somebody more recpetive, but certainly the sole determining factor in somebody's spiritual life.

[Me too]

On 9/29/2016 at 11:49 AM, Latter-Day Marriage said:

I can understand that concern, but there is a very real connection between the physical and the spiritual.  That's why we have the WoW for example, if your body is crying out to have some addiction fed, you are going to have a hard time hearing the still small voice.

I totally believe sex can have a HUGE effect on spirituality.  Maybe not in every situation but generally I'd say yes

[The Folk Prophet]

So...certain injuries to certain areas of the body means lower spirituality?

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So...certain injuries to certain areas of the body means lower spirituality?

Actually, I believe this is so. For example, how can a brain injury fail to impact spirituality? We experience our mortal lives through the filter of our physicality. I assume this applies to many spiritual concerns, as well.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Actually, I believe this is so. For example, how can a brain injury fail to impact spirituality? We experience our mortal lives through the filter of our physicality. I assume this applies to many spiritual concerns, as well.

If I had said "affects" instead of "lowers" then you might have a point.

But I'll be more direct. The implication of the OP is that someone who is impotent, castrated somehow, or otherwise sexually unable to "perform" has less ability to be spiritual, have the Spirit with them, have communion with the Spirit, etc.... I find that idea nonsensical at best.

[Vort]

15 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If I had said "affects" instead of "lowers" then you might have a point.

But I'll be more direct. The implication of the OP is that someone who is impotent, castrated somehow, or otherwise sexually unable to "perform" has less ability to be spiritual, have the Spirit with them, have communion with the Spirit, etc.... I find that idea nonsensical at best.

• Do you agree that chastity directly affects spirituality?
• Do you agree that certain brain injuries can result in a changed perception and personality that leads a formerly chaste person to act in an unchaste manner?

If you agree with the above two points, then the logical conclusion is that we can indeed suffer physical injuries that negatively impact our spirituality, at least indirectly.

[Vort]

@The Folk Prophet, on rereading, I realize that my response doesn't address your example. I guess that's because I was concentrating on the idea of spirituality being affected by physical conditions, including sexual conditions, rather than on the specific example you gave.

I do believe that it's not unreasonable to posit that sexual inactivity could negatively impact a man's spiritual condition. This is not to make an excuse for bad behavior, but merely a recognition that we are acted upon by forces both internal and external. To use a more extreme example, someone beating you up or raping you or otherwise assaulting you doesn't have to impact your spirituality -- I mean, you're still an agent, and you still get to choose -- but few would argue that there are no negative spiritual effects to be expected from such actions.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The implication of the OP is that someone who is impotent, castrated somehow, or otherwise sexually unable to "perform" has less ability to be spiritual, have the Spirit with them, have communion with the Spirit, etc.... I find that idea nonsensical at best.

I said it has an effect on one's spirituality.  That doesn't prevent anybody from those categories from being spiritual.  There are a lot of other things that affect one's spirituality and what a person may lack (or have) in one way can be made up in other ways.  All other things being equal, having a healthy sex life IMHO makes it easier to feel close to God than not having one.

The study notes a statistical correlation, and correlation is not causation.  It may be that being spiritual tends to lead to a more abundant sex life, or some third factor boosts both spirituality and sexuality together.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

@The Folk Prophet, on rereading, I realize that my response doesn't address your example. I guess that's because I was concentrating on the idea of spirituality being affected by physical conditions, including sexual conditions, rather than on the specific example you gave.

I do believe that it's not unreasonable to posit that sexual inactivity could negatively impact a man's spiritual condition. This is not to make an excuse for bad behavior, but merely a recognition that we are acted upon by forces both internal and external. To use a more extreme example, someone beating you up or raping you or otherwise assaulting you doesn't have to impact your spirituality -- I mean, you're still an agent, and you still get to choose -- but few would argue that there are no negative spiritual effects to be expected from such actions.

The premise seems to be that he/she who gets more is more spiritual. What you're talking about may or may not be the case (I'm not sure I take a strong opinion on it one way or another) but the idea that those who are having sex "frequently" have "a greater levels of spirituality" is rubbish. There is, plainly, no connection -- as it seems quite obvious that those having sex the most frequently are likely most typically less spiritual, engaged in their orgies and porno making and whatnot.

*Edit: Apparently I have a stronger opinion than I originally thought, as I thought through my answer below this post.

Edited November 22, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

All other things being equal, having a healthy sex life IMHO makes it easier to feel close to God than not having one.

I do not buy this. I accept that external physical elements can affect us and our efforts to strive for spirituality. I do not accept that it is a universal truth that everyone has an easier time with spirituality when sexually active at all. I do accept that if a young, virile male is married and has a means to righteously satisfy his sexual drive that this may play a small, theoretical part in it in some cases -- maybe even many cases. But I do not accept that as a universal truth either. By my measure, I am more spiritual now that my libido has waned somewhat with age (and frequency of said activity has diminished accordingly), and when I did have the strongest libido but wasn't "gettin' any" pre-marriage, at least at a certain point (my mission) was one of the most spiritual of my life. Could it have been more spiritual if I was married? Maybe. But I feel quite strongly that my dedication, service, prayers, faith, work, and calling were really the factors there and sex or the lack thereof played no part whatsoever in it, except for in the cases where I had inappropriate thoughts which drove the Spirit away (which goes back to the idea of married life providing an outlet for that which may, in some cases, lessen the frequency of inappropriate imaginative episodes). Of course that is anecdotal from my life alone. But logically, I still find the idea silly. Spirituality is a gift from God that stems from faith and obedience. Nowhere am I aware of a teaching from God that gifts of the Spirit are given to he who is able to get it on more often than to he who does not. And the outlet provided by married life which may help to focus otherwise "dirty" thoughts and behavior to the appropriate has nothing, whatsoever, to do with oxytocin.

1 hour ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

The study notes a statistical correlation

...but stems from a flawed premise -- that how one reports "feeling" indicates true spirituality. That is false. Therefore, the entire study is flawed.