A problem with milk before meat


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The problem with the church always teaching milk before meat is that things being taught get repetitive and you never learn anything new or interesting. Milk is what we have already heard every Sunday of our life. Give us some meat, something new and interesting.

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12 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

The problem with the church always teaching milk before meat is that things being taught get repetitive and you never learn anything new or interesting. Milk is what we have already heard every Sunday of our life. Give us some meat, something new and interesting.

Yup, totally agree. You get the same thing again and again which gets boring and when you find out some "controversial" history or teaching, it can seem like "Hey, what else are they hiding?! Oh no!" 

Amen @Zarahemla. Too bad no one will listen to us. 

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4 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

The problem with the church always teaching milk before meat is that things being taught get repetitive and you never learn anything new or interesting. Milk is what we have already heard every Sunday of our life. Give us some meat, something new and interesting.

A few thoughts:

  1. Go look up wherever it is that Paul wrote about itching ears.  Seems applicable.  (Itch can't appear that many times in scripture...)
  2. Go re-read Matthew chapter 5.  Have you mastered everything taught therein?  If not, you're not ready for something new and interesting.  (It is my belief and I suspect prophets and apostles have taught this, but it's too late right now for me to go hunting for it, that until a sufficient percentage of us have mastered a sufficient percentage of what we already have, we will not receive more.  If you want more, master what you already have, then the Lord will give you more.)
  3. President Kimball (I believe) once said he'd never been in a boring Sacrament meeting - presumably because he was there to learn from the Spirit, not from the speaker / teacher.  I suspect he also wasn't self-deceiving and tried hard to extract the pieces which applied to him and which he needed to work on.  Learning requires immense effort.  (In other words, if you need something new and interesting, go to the Lord in humble prayer, with real intent, and be willing to receive whatever he gives you, through the Spirit.)
  4. There are ample resources for you to do personal study on things which will be new and interesting to you.  Church is where we are to "preach nothing but repentance" until such time as the Lord tells us otherwise.  Church is the place to learn doctrine, not be entertained, shocked, or debate some divisive issue.
  5. Until the students in the class spend as much effort preparing for the class as the teacher spends, and until they stop sitting in the class like bumps on logs, and share their own insights, and ask their own questions, and engage in teaching one another, there's not much the teacher can do besides teach the lesson - teaching is a 2-way street.  But if everyone came fully prepared, and participated, the discussion could go much deeper than it usually does (in my experience).

In other words, if you're bored, that's your fault, not the teacher / speaker's fault - because you decide whether you're going to feel the Spirit, and the Spirit is never boring.  If you want to learn something new, all you need is to go do it, using tools and methods already available.  And yes, that is infinitely harder than having some intellectual-type scratch your itchy ears for you.

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1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

The problem with the church always teaching milk before meat is that things being taught get repetitive and you never learn anything new or interesting. Milk is what we have already heard every Sunday of our life. Give us some meat, something new and interesting.

I hear you here, and used to fill the same way.  The solution is to quit being a passive passenger in learning.  Look deeper & apply deeper.  Some concepts (like God loves you) have really simple nursery-level milk lessons, which are actually word-for-word identical for the most advance meat-course.  The difference is not the words of the lesson, but how deeply into your soul you let the lesson penetrate and lift you. 

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I like milk.  But I like whole milk. Not this weak sauce nonfat milk.  I particularly like sweetened condensed milk.

Yes, this was meant as a metaphor.

@Zarahemla,

On the one hand, I understand your desire to stretch your knowledge base and it would be good to have some help in that regard.  Nothing wrong with that.  But the problem I see with most people is that the driving force is pride.  Are you one of those people?

Some warning signs:

1) Have you already mastered the behaviors taught by the milk?  If not, why are you asking for even more responsibility?
2) Are you still appreciating the milk as you go searching for the meat?  Many who go down this road puff themselves up enough to think,"I don't need milk anymore".  Applying the analogy further, that isn't a wise approach.
3) Continue the metaphor:  What do you want the meat for?  Just variety?  Or do you see the nutrients it can provide and find them needful?  Not that variety is wrong.  But if that's the only reason, you may actually do more harm that good.  And what if the meat you have isn't prepared or seasoned properly?  You shouldn't eat raw meat.  That's bad for you.
4) Are you obeying the Word of Wisdom that you should eat meat sparingly or, sometimes, not at all (again metaphorically).

Usually, when the Savior uses a metaphor, there is much more to the metaphor that is usually considered.  And there is much more importance to the meat than we usually give credit.

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15 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

The problem with the church always teaching milk before meat is that things being taught get repetitive and you never learn anything new or interesting. Milk is what we have already heard every Sunday of our life. Give us some meat, something new and interesting.

The Latter-day Saints are choking on the milk,  which is why it's being repeated.   All too many of them are not doing the basics let alone being able to accept anything advanced.   Give them meat and they'll choke to death.   Joseph Smith once said that if he were to reveal everything the Lord told him, many of the Saints would seek his life.  This is because what he learned would be against their traditions.   It is the same today, because many LDS believe more in their secular education than in the truth. Joseph also said that with some members that when something comes along that is against their traditions they "fly apart like glass."  Brigham Young said that with many of the Saints tradition is stronger than the truth.   Asking for more advanced knowledge will simply condemn you if you are not living up to the basics. 

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14 minutes ago, Jojo Bags said:

The Latter-day Saints are choking on the milk,  which is why it's being repeated.   All too many of them are not doing the basics let alone being able to accept anything advanced.   

Maybe it's because they've been treated like babies for so long they begin to expect/act like it.

Is your opinion of the brothers and sisters really that low? 

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The problem is since the church doesn't give the meat and many of you say we are to search for the meat ourselves, that results in people finding information from not the most pro church friendly sources. That's why the church had to release the essays. People were finding out info the church was holding from them and didn't have clarification so many left the church. Searching for meat is how I found out about the 2nd anointing.

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Guest MormonGator

@Zarahemla makes a good point. The first time you hear the same thing in church it's fine. The 55th time you've heard the same thing it's annoying. Yes, you can get something different each time, but sometimes it's also best to move on. I've seen the same video 14 times (LadyGator and I have counted!) from the missionaries. It's the Uchtdorf one about the guy in the boat. We get it now. Eventually we tell the missionaries to find something else. 

 

The other insulting part is that everyone assumes you know nothing about the church if you are a convert. That's somewhat annoying too. 

Edited by MormonGator
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13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Zarahemla makes a good point. The first time you hear the same thing in church it's fine. The 55th time you've heard the same thing it's annoying. Yes, you can get something different each time, but sometimes it's also best to move on. I've seen the same video 14 times (LadyGator and I have counted!) from the missionaries. It's the Uchtdorf one about the guy in the boat. We get it now. Eventually we tell the missionaries to find something else. 

 

The other insulting part is that everyone assumes you know nothing about the church if you are a convert. That's somewhat annoying too. 

Both you and Zarahemla have your cause and effect reversed...  Having Faith in Christ, having a Testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and the Church are all very much milk...  Milk that Zarahemla and other claim to be so bored with that they want the Church to put out more meat...

Yet the Church has to create and put out the Essays to try to help these supposedly "milk saturated" individuals....  Because when they went out hunting for meat on their own they found that their own Faith and Testimonies were not up to the task.  This is not a failure of the church to provide the meat... it is a failure of the individual in being so weak in having actually absorbed the milk that their teeth have no strength to sink in and tear through the meat in all its stubbornly grisliness.

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5 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Both you and Zarahemla have your cause and effect reversed...  Having Faith in Christ, having a Testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and the Church are all very much milk...  Milk that Zarahemla and other claim to be so bored with that they want the Church to put out more meat...

Yet the Church has to create and put out the Essays to try to help these supposedly "milk saturated" individuals....  Because when they went out hunting for meat on their own they found that their own Faith and Testimonies were not up to the task.  This is not a failure of the church to provide the meat... it is a failure of the individual in being so weak in having actually absorbed the milk that their teeth have no strength to sink in and tear through the meat in all its stubbornly grisliness.

I obviously see it differently. Aside from metaphors about milk and meat, etc it shows a troubling area in the church. If you flood people with the basics to the point where it becomes over saturated people will collapse and have their faith shattered when they hear things that are more troubling/controversial, etc. It especially happens with young people. 

Eventually you need to graduate from junior high to high school. You can't stay in seventh grade forever. 

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53 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

The problem is since the church doesn't give the meat and many of you say we are to search for the meat ourselves, that results in people finding information from not the most pro church friendly sources. That's why the church had to release the essays. People were finding out info the church was holding from them and didn't have clarification so many left the church. Searching for meat is how I found out about the 2nd anointing.

Although I understand what you are expressing the notion isn't correct. The Church actually does give meat, it is whether or not we are listening to the right voice to hear. Meat is nothing more than simple truths which are learned line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little through the spirit of truth. We have all we need to learn the meat of doctrines, the question is whether or not we are searching, pondering, and praying for the Lord to open up our minds to them. It has never been the responsibility of the Church to teach meat. The Church is to teach the basic principles of salvation and then for us to follow and then learn through the power of the Spirit. This is what Adam taught. This is what Noah taught. This is what Jesus taught. This is what our latter-day prophets have taught.

I am at a point that meat is given regularly, as the scriptures specify, "time-to-time" from the Lord through hearing basic principles. A love basic scriptural doctrine comes from Moses 6:60. As my mission president did with me, this is all I will give you and allow the true teacher to teach you the meat. This is much better than having someone tell me everything. As my first thoughts with my mission president sharing this were, "Well, thanks, but that didn't help much." Over a course of many years, he was wise not to share anything more as this allowed me to learn through the spirit of truth.

The essays are a result of anti-Mormon lies and partial truths. These aren't meat. They are basic doctrines and clarifications of past events -- not meat. Meat is the mysteries that are revealed through the spirit of truth. If you listen, and study, meat will be revealed to you via basic doctrines and until you understand these basic doctrines (I am not meaning regurgitating what we have heard, but actually understanding them, as anyone can repeat what someone said). The meat will be discovered and understood through basic doctrines.

When searching for meat, the result for me was never to go to outside sources, but to actually look to the source of all truth and that is through faith, study, and prayer.

EDIT: I will often not share what I have learned that is deeper (don't like using this word as I don't believe in deep doctrine anymore) because I have come to understand there is a reason why our Father in heaven doesn't tell his prophets to share everything they know, which some have already highlighted.

Edited by Anddenex
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12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I obviously see it differently. Aside from metaphors about milk and meat, etc it shows a troubling area in the church. If you flood people with the basics to the point where it becomes over saturated people will collapse and have their faith shattered when they hear things that are more troubling/controversial, etc. It especially happens with young people. 

Eventually you need to graduate from junior high to high school. You can't stay in seventh grade forever. 

Right.... you can think that all these Towering testimonies and Rock Solid (Because they got the milk) Faith are all tumbling at the first real challenge because of to much time on the basics.

Or we can accept the fact that the Testimonies, and Faith were not that strong and solid inspite of all the times the Church had repeated taught how to strengthen and build it up.

And while you can't stay in the 7th grade forever... neither can you stay in school forever where everything is controlled and processed to be easy to swallow.

 

 

Edited by estradling75
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7 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Right.... you can think that all these Towering testimonies and Rock Solid (Because they got the milk) Faith are all tumbling at the first real challenge because of to much time on the basics.

Not what I implied or said. There is nothing wrong with focusing on the basics-for a time.  These faiths are crumbling (and some are) because the begin to expect that everything will be as easy as the basics. So when they get to a troubling issue, they don't know how to handle it. 

11 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 

And while you can't stay in the 7th grade forever... neither can you stay in school forever where everything is controlled and processed to be easy to swallow.

That's exactly my point. So you are a young person whose been raised in the church. You are given "the basics". You find out some troubling things online/or by your own research offline, etc that isn't easy to swallow and you don't know how. Because you haven't been taught anything more advanced than "the basics". 


That's one of the few things Catholic schooling does correctly (very, very few things actually). They teach the good, the bad and the ugly and attach the teaching of reason and philosophy to religious education. Thankfully the true church (LDS, obviously) is also beginning to do that, so in a way we are debating much ado about nothing. 

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Here is a great verse regarding your desire, which is good, to learn meat: Abraham 1:2. We all become wiser when we follow the example of someone who not only understood basic truths, but learned the mysteries as well, such that he received a promise, a covenant, which now blesses you and me.

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Not what I implied or said. There is nothing wrong with focusing on the basics-for a time.  These faiths are crumbling (and some are) because the begin to expect that everything will be as easy as the basics. So when they get to a troubling issue, they don't know how to handle it. 

That's exactly my point. So you are a young person whose been raised in the church. You are given "the basics". You find out some troubling things online/or by your own research offline, etc that isn't easy to swallow and you don't know how. Because you haven't been taught anything more advanced than "the basics".

Except the basics are exactly how you handle it..    For example a person finds a "troubling" bit of Church history...  Faith teaches on that Christ is in control.. so no matter how troubling it didn't get past him.  Prayer puts you on your knees asking him for answers/guidance/direction...  Humility and long-suffering puts you waiting for the answer when the Lord is willing to give it to you... and then you realize it is the Lord (not the Church) that will feed you the meat... in his time, in his wisdom, when he determines that you are ready to receive it.

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9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

That's exactly my point. So you are a young person whose been raised in the church. You are given "the basics". You find out some troubling things online/or by your own research offline, etc that isn't easy to swallow and you don't know how. Because you haven't been taught anything more advanced than "the basics". 

I think we're talking about two different things.

Gospel Basics: Pray, study scripture, pay tithing, etc.

Beyond Gospel Basics: What I assume Zarahemla is asking for (and, from their replies, what Anddenex, Estradling75 and Jojo Bags are commenting on).  I would list them here, except they're actually the same as the basics, only they become advanced when they sink into your heart until they change who you are.

What you are mentioning in above paragraphs are things like church history, online lies/distortions of our beliefs, eloquent refutations of or alternatives to what we believe, etc.  I doubt anyone here thinks members should not be prepared, in some way, for encountering these things.  We probably all disagree as to how and to what extent.

But I do NOT think this is what Zarahemla was asking for.  I think he was asking for the mysteries of God, new revelations, new doctrine.

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15 minutes ago, zil said:

What you are mentioning in above paragraphs are things like church history, online lies/distortions of our beliefs, eloquent refutations of or alternatives to what we believe, etc.  I doubt anyone here thinks members should not be prepared, in some way, for encountering these things.  We probably all disagree as to how and to what extent.

Agree. Well said. 

 

16 minutes ago, zil said:

But I do NOT think this is what Zarahemla was asking for.  I think he was asking for the mysteries of God, new revelations, new doctrine.

True. Obviously I only speak for myself. 

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1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

The problem is since the church doesn't give the meat and many of you say we are to search for the meat ourselves, that results in people finding information from not the most pro church friendly sources. That's why the church had to release the essays. People were finding out info the church was holding from them and didn't have clarification so many left the church. Searching for meat is how I found out about the 2nd anointing.

No meat given? Do you not own scripture from the church?  Have you not opened them?  Quit being a lazy passenger in your own learning at take the driver's seat.

Also quit wasting your time reading junk stuff and start actually reading the word of God.  And don't pretend like no one at church told you to read your scriptures.  

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

@Zarahemla makes a good point. The first time you hear the same thing in church it's fine. The 55th time you've heard the same thing it's annoying. Yes, you can get something different each time, but sometimes it's also best to move on. I've seen the same video 14 times (LadyGator and I have counted!) from the missionaries. It's the Uchtdorf one about the guy in the boat. We get it now. Eventually we tell the missionaries to find something else. 

 

The other insulting part is that everyone assumes you know nothing about the church if you are a convert. That's somewhat annoying too. 

(Re-edditted)

I hear you there.  Some of my first posts here were echoing near identical statements.  I likewise complained when my temple prep class this summer started with "Did you know that you existed before you were born?"  I wanted to scream "No duh!  I know about the pre-exisitance.  I've been a member of this church for 30 years, and have spent the last 7 spending 1000's of ours contemplating going to the temple and reading every single passage about it."

Anyway, this is the solution I found after much searching--

Quit being a lazy passenger!  If the teacher is being boring/repetitive/not helpful (cause that does happen), then take the driver's seat of your learning start looking deeper into things.  For example, rather than passively watching the video for the 200th time (cause that does happen) why not look up the cross-referenced scriptures?  

If it's a class of 1 or 2, grab the reins and say "Yes teacher, I've seen the video. I believe and know X & Y.  But I have questions about Z" and talk about Z.  People can indeed talk about Z, and I assure you the missionaries will be ok not watching the boat video for the 900th time themselves.  Let people know where you are and we can talk about there.

 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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17 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Again, quit being a lazy passenger!  If the teacher is being boring/repetitive/not helpful (cause that does happen), then take the driver's seat of your learning start looking deeper into things.  For example, rather than passively watching the video for the 200th time (cause that does happen) why not look up the cross-referenced scriptures?  

No worries @Jane_Doe, we do that. Eventually though you can only do so much. Believe me, I would love to have them listen to me. I've been told many, many times that I make the classes fun and entertaining. I've had brothers and sisters come up to me and ask if I could teach every week. 

Aside from being handsome, humble, rich and intelligent apparently I'm a good teacher too! 

Edited by MormonGator
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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

No worries @Jane_Doe, we do that. Eventually though you can only do so much. Believe me, I would love to have them listen to me. I've been told many, many times that I make the classes fun and entertaining. 

Fantastic!  Hey, even if you don't learn anything from them-- did you give them and new angle and teach them something new?

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