Why things are not perfect in the church

[Sunday21]

Occasionally, there is criticism of the church because

1) some issue was not dealt with perfectly. For example. Historically an individual or individuals could have been dealt with in a more sensitive manner. How could this happen in the true church? Because of the way in which deity communicates and guides his earthly children. It is not like having a radio receiver in your ear with G-d saying, turn left, walk 2 steps. The left hand down a bit, no just a little lower..

have you a calling, home teaching/visiting teaching? Do you get precise instructions as to what to say and how to say it? No you get some vague instructions and gentle promptings and then you do your best. I suspect prophets and apostles are guided using a similar method.

why are the temple ceremonies similar to other ceremonies? I suspect that the leaders at the time received some consul  and guidance but not the IKEA instruction manual. Like us they were doing their best with vague instructions.

2) the personality of leaders and their failings sometimes influenced how they governed the church. Church leaders are not infallible. They were/are human and thus flawed. G-d has work even for the imperfect. Are we perfect in how we carry out our callings? Are we perfect home teachers/visiting teachers. These positions are also callings.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Sunday21

[Maureen]

But if God speaks to the prophet and leaders of the LDS Church  (supposedly one true church) vaguely, how is that different than how God talks to leaders and people of other churches?

M.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think that, on matters affecting salvation, the Church does extraordinarily well--as @Maureen hints, having a living prophet implies that while our church need not be perfect--we ought to be getting more stuff more right more often, than any other church.

To the degree that errors remain, we need to bear in mind that what we think needs immediate fixing, won't always coincide with what God thinks needs immediate fixing.  We worship a god who had at least two different bona fide prophets/apostles, fifteen hundred years apart (Moses and Paul) who not only failed to condemn slavery; but openly endorsed the practice within their societies.  People who think the modern church is making some mortal error, may want to consider the possibility that God just has bigger fish to fry.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Maureen said:

But if God speaks to the prophet and leaders of the LDS Church  (supposedly one true church) vaguely, how is that different than how God talks to leaders and people of other churches?

M.

When God speaks to any individual, that individual (including leaders of other churches) should listen and do what he's told for himself.  When God speaks to a Prophet regarding the world, then the world needs to listen to the prophet.  Nevertheless, there are times when the Lord will speak to a Prophet as an individual and not as a prophet.  For those things, the prophet is simply to do as he's told like anyone else.  This does not mean that what he hears will necessarily be something that any of us need to do, including leaders of other churches.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Guest

[Maureen]

31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

When God speaks to any individual, that individual (including leaders of other churches) should listen and do what he's told for himself.  When God speaks to a Prophet regarding the world, then the world needs to listen to the prophet.  Nevertheless, there are times when the Lord will speak to a Prophet as an individual and not as a prophet.  For those things, the prophet is simply to do as he's told like anyone else.  This does not mean that what he hears will necessarily be something that any of us need to do, including leaders of other churches.

Quote

Sunday said:

Do you ge[t] precise instructions as to what to say and how to say it? No you get some vague instructions and gentle promptings and then you do your best. I suspect prophets and apostles are guided using a similar method.

I'm understanding Sunday's OP to mean that maybe the prophet and apostles of the LDS church receive communications from God in a not clear, direct way (not individual communication but prophetic communication). That maybe it's possible that God communicates with the leaders of the LDS church the same as he does with the lay members. If that is what @Sunday21 believes, then what makes the leaders of her church in relation to how God communicates with them different than with how God communicates with leaders of other churches? I'm of the understanding that LDS members believe that God directly communicates with the Prophet of the LDS church, that these communications are not vague but clear communications.

M. 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Maureen

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Maureen said:

I'm understanding Sunday's OP to mean that maybe the prophet and apostles of the LDS church receive communications from God in a not clear, direct way (not individual communication but prophetic communication). That maybe it's possible that God communicates with the leaders of the LDS church the same as he does with the lay members. If that is what @Sunday21 believes, then what makes the leaders of her church in relation to how God communicates with them different than with how God communicates with leaders of other churches? I'm of the understanding that LDS members believe that God directly communicates with the Prophet of the LDS church, that these communications are not vague but clear communications.

M. 

Ah.  I see.

In some ways, focusing only on that narrow statement, there is no difference.  But you're using Sunday's post to generalize.

1) What she was talking about was the administration of the Church.  On this matter, of course there isn't much difference between our church leaders and other "well meaning" ones.  They're good men trying to help others be good men as well.  Why wouldn't they be given help from heaven to accomplish such a noble goal?

2) When Doctrine is declared, that is where the big difference is evident.  How many leaders of how many sects can look at a passage of the Bible and come up with different interpretations?  Who's right?  While we don't consider our leaders infallible in this regard, see JAG's post (re: more right, more often...).

3) Our Church is different than any other.  The nature of our church is such that when we have a directive from the Prophet, it affects us differently and with more force and conviction than it does if you received a directive from your pastor or minister.  And I daresay, it is with more conviction than most Catholics do with the declarations from the Pope.  But that's just my personal experience from a lifetime of Catholic friends.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And I daresay, it is with more conviction than most Catholics do with the declarations from the Pope.  But that's just my personal experience from a lifetime of Catholic friends.

Being raised Catholic I can say you are exactly right. 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Being raised Catholic I can say you are exactly right. 

Case in point... the comparable divorce rates between Catholics and Mormons... I mean, yeah, Mormons has a 3% higher divorce rate than Catholics.  BUT... divorce/remarriage is against Canon Law...

Edited September 29, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Case in point... the comparable divorce rates between Catholics and Mormons... I mean, yeah, Mormons has a 3% higher divorce rate than Catholics.  BUT... divorce/remarriage is against Canon Law...

28% of Catholics have been divorced according to google. I'm just curious, what is the LDS divorce rate? 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Case in point... the comparable divorce rates between Catholics and Mormons... I mean, yeah, Mormons has a 3% higher divorce rate than Catholics.  BUT... divorce/remarriage is against Canon Law...

 

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

28% of Catholics have been divorced according to google. I'm just curious, what is the LDS divorce rate? 

The 28% and 25% numbers are totals (and the numbers vary somewhat depending on what survey you're talking about).  When you look at temple marriages vs non-temple marriages, the statistics skew quite a bit in favor of Mormon marriages. Temple marriages are around 6%.  

While this is much lower than the world, a part of me weeps that a 6% divorce rate is something to be proud of.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 

While this is much lower than the world, a part of me weeps that a 6% divorce rate is something to be proud of.

Hypocritical thing to say for a dude on his fifth marriage. 

 

[Sunday21]

47 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Hypocritical thing to say for a dude on his fifth marriage. 

 

Or for a man on his 15th wife, Gator!

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Or for a man on his 15th wife, Gator!

All my wives are still married to me, darling. (Darling is said sarcastically but with nothing but the fondest regards) Miss @Sunday21

[Sunday21]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

All my wives are still married to me, darling. (Darling is said sarcastically but with nothing but the fondest regards) Miss @Sunday21

In that case, you are doing better than Brother Brigham and Brother Pratt! Both of them, had wives who divorced them! A nonmember was watching a tv series about the early days of railways and asked me about Bro Bighams many wives and his divorces. It is my understanding the Bro Brigham understood the strain that plural marriage put on the sisters and allowed sisters to leave the arrangement rather easily. 

[anatess2]

10 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

In that case, you are doing better than Brother Brigham and Brother Pratt! Both of them, had wives who divorced them! A nonmember was watching a tv series about the early days of railways and asked me about Bro Bighams many wives and his divorces. It is my understanding the Bro Brigham understood the strain that plural marriage put on the sisters and allowed sisters to leave the arrangement rather easily. 

If you're talking about that same TV show that I saw a couple episodes of... the Mormons were the bad guys, weren't they?  I mean, I think one of Brother Brigham's sons went to assassinate him or something....

[Sunday21]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

If you're talking about that same TV show that I saw a couple episodes of... the Mormons were the bad guys, weren't they?  I mean, I think one of Brother Brigham's sons went to assassinate him or something....

Oh great! Just what we need. Let's put the 3 Nephites in our Public Affairs dept!

[Maureen]

@Sunday21, am I misunderstanding your OP?

M.

[Sunday21]

Hi Maureen,

i really don't know how G-d communicates with the leaders of other churches. I think that good people who obey the commandments in good faith do receive some type of communication from G-d but more than that I cannot say. I am a former atheist so my experience is limited. 

when Nephi was a lad, his father the prophet Lehi, was told by G-d that it was important the some members of the family return to Jerusalem, which they had just left, and which was rather dangerous, and retrieve some genealogical records called the brass plates. It becomes clear in the Book of Mormon that the brass plates were vital to the spiritual salvation of generations. Despite the importance of the mission, the sons of Lehi, had a real struggle to retrieve the plates. G-d does provide assistance at times but not so much help that the retrieval is an easy task. The retrieval is a miserable experience. Similar incidents occur throughout the Book of Mormon. Good people try to do good things and man those good folks suffer. At the very least, doing good is not easy. I equate these struggles to our lives and our callings.

i teach a group of women who are not very friendly or outgoing. Individually, they are good people but as a group, we have a problem. We bring people into the church but our new members do not get the warmth that they require. In short the ladies are not making friends with each other. I pray, read lessons designed to encourage people to be friendly, try to adjust the way I teach but I am struggling. I do get promptings, don't do that, don't do this, and finally after a lot of work...yes that is a good idea. But I don't have a radio receiver in my ear saying do this, now that, left hand down a bit.  I imagine that this struggle is pretty normal at all levels of the church. Sometimes you get precise instructions eg here is the blue print for the temple! But I suspect that precise instruction does not come all time for the senior priesthood either and a lot of the time, they are doing the best they can with vague promptings. It is not surprising that sometimes in history leaders messed up. Like me, they are trying one thing and then another until they get a prompting that says, yes that's ok.

what I need to do is import some sisters from the Southern us eg Alabama, Georgia. Ladies from inner city Detroit would be good too! Bring me some friendly sisters! 

[Anddenex]

On 9/29/2016 at 6:01 AM, Sunday21 said:

Occasionally, there is criticism of the church because

1) some issue was not dealt with perfectly. For example. Historically an individual or individuals could have been dealt with in a more sensitive manner. How could this happen in the true church? Because of the way in which deity communicates and guides his earthly children. It is not like having a radio receiver in your ear with G-d saying, turn left, walk 2 steps. The left hand down a bit, no just a little lower..

have you a calling, home teaching/visiting teaching? Do you get precise instructions as to what to say and how to say it? No you get some vague instructions and gentle promptings and then you do your best. I suspect prophets and apostles are guided using a similar method.

why are the temple ceremonies similar to other ceremonies? I suspect that the leaders at the time received some consul  and guidance but not the IKEA instruction manual. Like us they were doing their best with vague instructions.

2) the personality of leaders and their failings sometimes influenced how they governed the church. Church leaders are not infallible. They were/are human and thus flawed. G-d has work even for the imperfect. Are we perfect in how we carry out our callings? Are we perfect home teachers/visiting teachers. These positions are also callings.

1) The Church, a living well and its perfection, is an intriguing topic of study due to the many facets that influence decisions made by leaders. As an exemplum, let's review briefly the Children of Israel and Samuel the Prophet. What was the Lord's will regarding the calling of a King? What was Samuel's will? What was the will of the Children of Israel? Two were unified, but the whole was not. This is one major reason the Church has not progressed more toward Zion; the majority is unwilling to move forward. We can review our day and see how the Children of Israel are still pushing back the Lord seeking to push us forward. More than not, the Prophet and the Lord are "unified" or at least the prophet will change his mind when the Lord speaks directly (e.g. Samuel's decision for a King changed when the Lord told him who he wanted). The Children of Israel, if pride encompasses the heart, are not willing to bend so easily. We see examples of this today.

2) Communication with the Lord is accomplished by the same methods we receive knowledge and instruction from the Lord. The main way the Lord communicates is discovered in Doctrine and Covenants 8:2-3. The Lord will communicate to us and prophets via dreams, visions, angel visitations, and even person visits from the Lord himself. Revelation doesn't change the moment a person becomes a prophet. Primary teachers are able to receive the same methods of communication from the Lord as the Prophet. What then makes it different, stewardship and keys (which are accompanied with different stewardships). Fathers and Mothers have their stewardships and the rights to revelation which no one else does. Bishops have the right to revelation which no one else does. This pattern was instituted with Adam and hasn't changed. I have come to understand that there are two forms of revelation: practical and inspirational. We are all intelligences with given knowledge and power of action which practical revelation is rooted in. Inspirational is when an individual knows God is communicating and the message delivered is purely inspirational. Practical is evident with Samuel choosing one of David's brothers as King. Inspirational is the Lord immediately intervening or revealing his will (this is rarely if ever vague). Samuel was moving forward according to his intelligence, as we all have been commanded to do. We act. We continue to act until the Lord directs otherwise.

3) This is the "one true Church" nothing supposed. This was inspirational revelation. The First Vision was inspirational revelation. The burning bush was inspirational revelation. The interpreting of Pharoah's dream was inspirational revelation. The Liahona was inspirational revelation, and many more examples from scriptures.

4) How then do we as members of the Church know when the revelation given to a prophet is practical or inspirational? If we are succumbed with pride, we won't be able to tell and we will often say, "The prophet is not perfect. I don't agree with what he said." We have evidence of this today and recent policies given; although these policies are in direct correlation with scripture, "It is the Handbook. Not doctrine. I don't have to believe it or accept it." The same mentality has been expressed since the beginning. The Children of Israel are still forgetting stewardship.

5) One of the greatest examples of respect for stewardship, and the imperfection of a prophet/father, is Nephi. As they experienced struggles, even the Prophet/Father murmured against the Lord. Nephi acted, practical revelation (use of our own intelligence that is the same intelligence of God). Nephi then acted in accordance with stewardship, not with pride, paraphrased, "Father (the prophet and patriarch), where shall we go to find food?" Inspirational revelation was received. They acted. They were fed. Until we can have the same heart as Nephi, the Church will continue to struggle, as we are as strong as our weakest link. Strengthen the bottom (wards and stakes) we will strengthen the Church. We have evidence of this lack in General Conference with people screaming out "Opposed" who clearly have a lack of understanding of what it means to oppose someone in their calling (no matter if it is the least calling or one with greater responsibility).

[Sunday21]

12 hours ago, Anddenex said:

1) The Church, a living well and its perfection, is an intriguing topic of study due to the many facets that influence decisions made by leaders. As an exemplum, let's review briefly the Children of Israel and Samuel the Prophet. What was the Lord's will regarding the calling of a King? What was Samuel's will? What was the will of the Children of Israel? Two were unified, but the whole was not. This is one major reason the Church has not progressed more toward Zion; the majority is unwilling to move forward. We can review our day and see how the Children of Israel are still pushing back the Lord seeking to push us forward. More than not, the Prophet and the Lord are "unified" or at least the prophet will change his mind when the Lord speaks directly (e.g. Samuel's decision for a King changed when the Lord told him who he wanted). The Children of Israel, if pride encompasses the heart, are not willing to bend so easily. We see examples of this today.

2) Communication with the Lord is accomplished by the same methods we receive knowledge and instruction from the Lord. The main way the Lord communicates is discovered in Doctrine and Covenants 8:2-3. The Lord will communicate to us and prophets via dreams, visions, angel visitations, and even person visits from the Lord himself. Revelation doesn't change the moment a person becomes a prophet. Primary teachers are able to receive the same methods of communication from the Lord as the Prophet. What then makes it different, stewardship and keys (which are accompanied with different stewardships). Fathers and Mothers have their stewardships and the rights to revelation which no one else does. Bishops have the right to revelation which no one else does. This pattern was instituted with Adam and hasn't changed. I have come to understand that there are two forms of revelation: practical and inspirational. We are all intelligences with given knowledge and power of action which practical revelation is rooted in. Inspirational is when an individual knows God is communicating and the message delivered is purely inspirational. Practical is evident with Samuel choosing one of David's brothers as King. Inspirational is the Lord immediately intervening or revealing his will (this is rarely if ever vague). Samuel was moving forward according to his intelligence, as we all have been commanded to do. We act. We continue to act until the Lord directs otherwise.

3) This is the "one true Church" nothing supposed. This was inspirational revelation. The First Vision was inspirational revelation. The burning bush was inspirational revelation. The interpreting of Pharoah's dream was inspirational revelation. The Liahona was inspirational revelation, and many more examples from scriptures.

4) How then do we as members of the Church know when the revelation given to a prophet is practical or inspirational? If we are succumbed with pride, we won't be able to tell and we will often say, "The prophet is not perfect. I don't agree with what he said." We have evidence of this today and recent policies given; although these policies are in direct correlation with scripture, "It is the Handbook. Not doctrine. I don't have to believe it or accept it." The same mentality has been expressed since the beginning. The Children of Israel are still forgetting stewardship.

5) One of the greatest examples of respect for stewardship, and the imperfection of a prophet/father, is Nephi. As they experienced struggles, even the Prophet/Father murmured against the Lord. Nephi acted, practical revelation (use of our own intelligence that is the same intelligence of God). Nephi then acted in accordance with stewardship, not with pride, paraphrased, "Father (the prophet and patriarch), where shall we go to find food?" Inspirational revelation was received. They acted. They were fed. Until we can have the same heart as Nephi, the Church will continue to struggle, as we are as strong as our weakest link. Strengthen the bottom (wards and stakes) we will strengthen the Church. We have evidence of this lack in General Conference with people screaming out "Opposed" who clearly have a lack of understanding of what it means to oppose someone in their calling (no matter if it is the least calling or one with greater responsibility).

Please tell me no one yelled out 'oppose' this time! Honestly, I had thought they had grown out of such things!

[zil]

28 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Please tell me no one yelled out 'oppose' this time! Honestly, I had thought they had grown out of such things!

Nah.  It sounded like, "NOOOOooooooo" to me.

[Sunday21]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

Nah.  It sounded like, "NOOOOooooooo" to me.

Oh brother!

[Anddenex]

34 minutes ago, zil said:

Nah.  It sounded like, "NOOOOooooooo" to me.

I thought I heard "Opposed" but maybe it was "NOOOOoooo."

[zil]

4 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I thought I heard "Opposed" but maybe it was "NOOOOoooo."

Well, it was kinda hard to hear while watching on TV.  Maybe the "O" stood out...

[Anddenex]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

Well, it was kinda hard to hear while watching on TV.  Maybe the "O" stood out...

Yep, true, true.