Rob Osborn

I think in general, we speak of salvation and glories kind of haphazardly not really thinking through the nuts and bolts of the principles involved and as such can't answer the real questions where the rubber meets the road. Our go to answer is along the lines of "we aren't to judge, God will" or, "so and so said so therefore it must be settled" and then folks move on in a state of ignorance.

So, you can offer no logical explanation then why there will be wicked souls (unrighteous) saved from the eternal hell after resurrection and judgment. It's okay if you don't know, I just thought perhaps you had a logical explanation. That's all.

I was stating what our scriptures say for the type or state of person in that predicament.

I don't see it that way at all. I'm asking from a logical standpoint. I'm asking how it's possible that there are wicked souls saved into heaven. You refuse to bring logic to that premise. Im really curious how you arrive at there being wicked souls saved from eternal hell. How is it?

He received many of them. What is missing, in my opinion, is the critical true interpretation of them. In this regards, in my opinion, much of our doctrine regarding salvation will be modified to allow for truth to prevail.

The only thing I keep missing is your desire to address the points I bring up. You believe God will save the wicked, that there's a place in heaven for the unrighteous yet you can't provide any sound doctrine to back it up so you shut down. That's how I see it. Am I wrong?

See what I mean?

I don't think for a moment the Lord God has revealed through the prophets the exact design and measurements of the holy garment. I think God let's man figure it out on his own and the Lord accepts it through his tender mercies for the sake of saving souls. I think a lot of these details are like this, follow this pattern. We must remember that God's ways are not man's ways. But, through the tender mercies of the Lord, he works with us for the purpose of slowly changing our hearts and ways into becoming as he is.

It's hard to get at what you are saying because you always want to shut down and walk away from the conversation. The reason I asked about Christ not saving the wicked is critical to understanding my point. There are only righteous and wicked in the end. Christ had no power to save the wicked. Christ can only save the righteous. And what do the righteous inherit? This Earth. Now, this part about the "law of Christ" and how it ties in here. The law of Christ is the fulness of the gospel. It is the "doctrine" of Christ as found in his holy scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon. It is only through obedience to the gospel (law of Christ) that one becomes "righteous". It is the only means possible in the end to be saved from hell. Our third article of faith reads- "3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." It might as well read- 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the law of Christ. We know this because the law of Christ contains all the laws and ordinances of the gospel. So, what is meant by being "saved" as it states? It means to be saved from the second death- the everlasting death that comes upon the wicked who get cast out into outer darkness. Now, going back to section 88 we can better understand this section. All of the "righteous" inherit the earth as mentioned in verse 26. They inherit it because of their obedience to the gospel which is the "law of Christ". Obedience to the law of Christ is the only means possible that man can be saved by. If one thus assumes the telestial and terrestrial are eternal kingdoms- separate world's of glory after resurrection, then it creates a paradox. Why? Because they would be saved without showing obedience to the gospel (law of Christ). This runs contrary to everything the Book of Mormon teaches which is supposed to the doctrine of the law of Christ. And accordingly, disobedience to the law of Christ gets you only one thing- damnation in hell. In order to understand section 88 one must place the context of the endowment in order to understand the telestial and terrestrial are not eternal worlds of glory after resurrection and judgment. So, unless you can provide some other logic to say God will deliver souls eternally out of hell without obedience to Christ's gospel, then you must admit section 88 is not meant how you want it to. So, please entertain me on how you believe it's possible that man can be saved eternally from hell without obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

I don't believe this is very complex. Repentance in it's complete form is both about changing and paying a price which includes working to restore that which you caused wrong or harm to.

Ah...the perplexities of man's understandings. Between cultural trends and expectations we have sort of invented these standards in my opinion. In dreams I have seen passed ones wearing white raiment and they are both very well dressed and covered alike.

Well, if you remain in this predicament then you will find your place in hell eternally. In order to be saved from this eternal hell one must accept Christ through faith, repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, then follow on the path receiving other ordinances of salvation in the holy temple and showing obedience to them until you receive salvation.

You are wrong about some here being currently in the terrestrial and some being in the Celestial kingdom right now on earth. No one can be in a kingdom other than the kingdom one is quickened by and the only quickening power right now on the earth is the telestial for all mankind. Let me ask you this- do you suppose that Christ is going to save those who are not "righteous" after resurrection and judgment? This answer is a key to this whole mystery.

Would like to bring up this one point. If we are to just take the scriptures and endowment and leave all else out- opinions, interpretations, and other doctrines based on that interpretation, we really have pure doctrine regarding the kingdoms. To me, the endowment represents the clearest doctrine we have regarding the plan of salvation. We use the endowment to interpret scripture as it was given after the scriptures on the matter. Regarding symbolism, the endowment symbolizes man's journey from the pre-mortal, down to earth, into the millennium, and finally returning back to God. The endowment teaches us the meaning of the kingdoms, their placement, purpose, and duration. This Earth in it's present state, as taught there, is not symbolic of the telestial kingdom, no, it is actually explaining e are currently in "the telestial kingdom". It's a small point but important.

Well, however we figure it, in the end there will only be this Earth the saved dwell on, that's it.