Jersey Boy

I believe it’s very likely that, much like Alma the Younger, the penitent thief’s sinful journey through life had finally brought him to the point where he was genuinely sorry for all the wrongs he had done, and that when he cried out to the Lord in faith he was deeply sincere and in a state of authentic contrition. No doubt the Savior keenly perceived the thief’s profound remorse of conscience and passionate profession of faith in him, and for these reasons it could very well be that the man’s change of heart was felt deeply enough to spare him the fate of being cast into the spirit prison with the unrepentant thief. As a consequence, it’s possible that immediately after he died the repentant thief was brought to a place in the spirt world where he was far better off spiritually than the unrepentant thief who was cast into the spirit prison. So at least when compared to where the unrepentant thief ended up after his death (hell), the repentant thief was, spiritually speaking, very likely in a far better place than hell, a place and condition where his opportunities to fully embrace the gospel would be greatly facilitated. In a manner of speaking, it might very well be that the penitent thief was in a place in the spirit world that’s much closer to the paradisiacal state than to the spirit prison. It’s also possible that the Lord granted the thief the special privilege of actually being able to enter paradise itself, where the Savior was about to preach the gospel to the spirits of the righteous dead who were gathered there in the joyous anticipation of his arrival. What better time, place and condition for the repentant thief to hear the gospel preached than by the Son of God himself immediately death? After all, the Lord promised the man that he would be with him in paradise, not separated from him. It appears that it would be somewhat disingenuous and misleading for the Lord answer the penitent thief’s heartfelt plea to “remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom” with “today shalt thou be with me in paradise,” when what he actually meant was ‘today you and I will be in the spirit world, but I will be in paradise and you will be in hell.’ I believe that in all likelihood the penitent thief was fully sincere in his repentance, and for this reason he escaped the condemnation of hell in the same way that Alma the Younger instantly escaped the condemnation of hell after coming unto Christ with full purpose of heart. It’s often said in the church that there’s no such thing as deathbed repentance, but isn’t that tantamount to what happened to Alma the Younger when he was delivered from the pains of hell instantaneously, immediately after crying unto the Son of God for deliverance? Therefore in answer to your question, the Savior’s heartening promise made to the repentant thief very likely is close enough to the spirit of the actual truth for us to be able to rightly leave the verse just as it is.

The expression “they are one God” in verse 4 is referring specifically to Christ in his simultaneous roles as the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, the Creator (Father) of all things in heaven and earth when an unembodied Spirit, and the Father of salvation through the atonement to all who believe on his name. Hopefully, the following annotated verses will help make things clear… 3 The Father (Christ is here being referred to as the Father of our of salvation) because he was conceived by the power of God (I.e. Christ was endowed with the divine power needed in order to successfully offer an infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice while in the flesh); and the Son, because of the flesh (the same person whom we call the Father of heaven and earth and the Father of our salvation is also be called the Son of God because he is the literal earthly Son of Elohim); thus becoming the Father and Son (the Father because he is the Father of heaven and earth, as well as the Father of our salvation through the atonement, and he is also the Son because Elohim is the literal Father of his earthly body). 4 And they (i.e. the Father of heaven and earth, the Father of our salvation, and the Son of God in the flesh) are one God (in this particular instance the prophet is speaking of only one personage, namely Jesus Christ), yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. (Mosiah 15) These seemingly inscrutable words of Abinadi become clear when it’s understood that in these verses the prophet is speaking of Christ in his dual fatherly role as the Father of heaven and earth, and even more especially as the atoning Father of salvation.

There is no “probably” about it. The Lord makes it perfectly clean that the intelligences that existed before the organization of spirit bodies had free will, and if it were not so nothing could exist. 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

What do you think you will gain if you decide to believe there is no God? I’m being quite serious about this. I’m very interested to learn how you think you might benefit if you decide to surrender to unbelief?

I largely agree with the second paragraph. The only problem is that in order for the fair-minded concepts of the second paragraph to be fulfilled there can be no room for accidental and/or untimely deaths that prematurely thrust those who haven’t been given enough time to believe and repent into a state of existence where they will automatically be barred from entry into the celestial kingdom because, as you said, the spirit world requires less faith to believe.

I’ll respond to the thoughts in your second paragraph later, as I have something I presently need to do. But I’ll take a moment to say that if one of the reasons why it’s not possible for those who take advantage of their “second chance,” by embracing the gospel in the spirit world, to eventually obtain the celestial kingdom is because less faith is required there to know the gospel is true, then we’re right back where we started! How could it be considered fair and just if someone who rejected the gospel in the flesh at age 25, but then is shortly thereafter killed by a drunk driver, to be placed in a state of existence that will necessarily preclude him from obtaining the fullness of salvation? Meanwhile, if the same man had lived to the ripe age of 85 he would have had a much better chance to accept the gospel before death and strive with his might to obtain eternal life. If God truly is fair and just, it appears patently unreasonable that someone would be deprived of his opportunity to strive toward exaltation due to unfortunate circumstances that were not his fault.

Why do those desperately wicked and rebellious souls, like Alma the Younger, who at first reject the gospel message but later receive it while still in the flesh, have a pathway open to obtain the celestial kingdom, while the not so not desperately wicked, who receive the gospel after death, can only hope to obtain a terrestrial glory? What’s so magical about death that a balanced application of mercy and justice no longer seems to apply after one’s mortal body is laid down the grave? If Alma had died during his exquisite spiritual suffering, before thinking to cry out to the Savior for mercy, would he have only been able to obtain a terrestrial glory as well? If so, why? It seems terribly unfair that an untimely and/or accidental death, something that one often has no control over, could mightily change one’s spiritual destiny forever.

You seem to fail to take into consideration the fact that the atonement of Christ is infinite and eternal, extending forever backward and forever forward in one eternal round. If it weren’t for the fact that the atonement is infinite and eternal nothing could exist, including the elemental intelligences (the free agents Doctrine and Covenants 93 calls the “light of truth”) that existed prior to being organized in heaven as the spirit sons and daughters of God. In point of fact, if it weren’t for the infinite and eternal atonement of Christ nothing would or could exist. The only reason why agency and free will exist in any of the realms of existence is because of the foundational reality of the infinite and eternal atonement that replaces nonexistence (chaos) with existence. The atonement of Christ is the very glue or binding agent that allows all things to exist and consist, and without it agency cannot exist. Why? Because without the infinite and eternal atonement of Christ all things would be a compound in one, without sense or sensibility; in other words, nothing would exist. Until it’s firmly understood that the atonement of Christ is the very foundational matrix upon which all reality, element, intelligence, thought and action exist, the erroneous idea that intelligences and things can exist outside of the atonement of Christ will begin to sap the mind of light and truth. The Book of Mormon even goes so far as to say that if there were no atoning Christ even God the Father himself could not exist! 7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. (2 Nephi 11)

Context is all-important when it comes to gaining a correct understanding of the word of God, and by presenting the above verse in isolation and out of context.you misunderstand the actual intended meaning of the words. The verses that precede Mormon 9:5 make it clear that Mormon is speaking of those who will remain in their sins as implacable enemies of Christ at the time of the final judgement. In other words, Mormon is speaking of none other than the unbowed and unrepentant sons of perdition who remain ‘filthy still,’ even after the resurrection. Doctrine and Covenants sections 76 and 138 makes it clear that all will eventually come unto Christ, receive a remission of their sins, and inherit a blessed kingdom of heavenly glory befitting their degree of faith and diligence, except for the sons of perdition. 1 And now, I speak also concerning those who do not believe in Christ. 2 Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that agreat day when the bearth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall cmelt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God—then will ye say that there is no God? 3 Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a aconsciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? 4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your afilthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the bdamned souls in chell. (Mormon 9)

Yes, because denying the Holy Ghost is not only a turning away from God and an abandonment one’s sure and certain spiritual testimony that the gospel is true, but it also amounts to a rejection of the Holy Ghost’s witness that exercising faith in the redemptive power of Christ is the only way to receive forgiveness of one’s sins and thereafter obtain an inheritance in one of the three kingdoms of heavenly glory.

In accord with your correct understanding of Doctrine and Covenants 19, the reason why the suffering for sin of the sons of perdition truly is endless is because they utterly refuse to exercise faith in Christ and repent of their sins. The ‘unpardonable sin’ is the steadfast refusal to come unto Christ to obtain pardon.

Christ’s intercessory prayer makes it clear that his disciples had not yet received the Holy Ghost, even though it was at the end of his earthly ministry, and he told them that they wouldn’t receive the Holy Ghost until sometime after his resurrection. On that holy night of the Last Supper and his entry into Gethsemane, the Lord instructed his disciples that as long as he remained in mortality they could not receive the Holy Ghost, but that he would send forth the Holy Ghost to abide with them soon after his resurrection. In fulfillment of this promise, the resurrected Lord’s disciples did receive the Holy Ghost soon thereafter on the Day of Pentecost. What this indicates is that Judas had not received the Holy Ghost and it’s therefore unlikely that he’s a son of perdition.

Why don’t you spend some quality time in a sincere attempt to learn what the Latter-Day Saints actually believe instead of asking silly, ill informed questions that make it obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about? Rather than spoon feed you the correct information, I suggest you read, study and deeply ponder Doctrine and Covenants 138 and you’ll get the information you need to be set straight as to whether or not the inheritors of the lower kingdoms of heavenly glory will have a covenantal relationship with Christ. But I’ll cut you some slack because, in all honesty, most Latter-Day Saints are clueless when it comes to what Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 actually teach.

And the fact that it was also widely known that courageous Jesus was also a worker of many mighty miracles, including the raising of the dead, had to have added to the trepidation of those who were sent to arrest him.

The way the narrative unfolds makes it a virtual certainty that it was the enemies of Christ who fell backward, not the Lord’s disciples. And why wouldn’t Christ’s enemies be fearful, as it was common knowledge that Christ was a worker of great miracles, including the ability to raise corpses from the dead? Christ had also only very recently demonstrated himself to be an extraordinarily fearless and intimidating figure, as he had only recently aggressively thrown the money changers out of the temple in a justifiable demonstration of divine outrage. In light of these things, I would imagine the band who had come to arrest Christ were filled with great fear and apprehension, dreading the possibility that he might use his miraculous power on them to their overthrow. Their nerves were likely already at a hair-trigger when he was asked who he was, and when he calmly and boldly answered them “I Am,” they blew a gasket.