Need A Little Help

[ChicagoGuy]

I have been LDS since 1993. I am married in the Salt Lake Temple and have a child. I am a full tithe payer and am at church every Sunday with a multiple callings.

I have a serious problem -- recently I have begun to question my faith. I joined the Church in 1993 due to more peer pressure at Jr. college than anyhting else ( i was raised Baptist ). As the years went on they would find me from time to time then finally I let them come over when i was in difficult time in my life. Shortly after that I met my wife and we were married in the temple 1 year later. a few years after that we have a child together.

The thing is I never was really 100 % sold on the LDS church and pretty much always thought in the back of my mind that is was a church that was created by a group of people in the 1800's. i also thought at the same time i really apreciated the principles it was founded on and i loved how most mormons just seemed so genuine and kind. But during this time I alo held out hope it was true and was never really sure either way.

recently I have almost completley swung the other way as EVERY piece of reseach I do blows the Book of Mormon , POGP, and Joself Smith out of the water. i mean if it was a murder trial it would be an open and shut case against the church being legitimate -- thats how much evidence is out there against it. i have wanted to believe for a long time but after everyhting I have researched it would be like looking at my PC and thinking it's not really there. I can list everyhting i have researched if you like but it would take a very long time to provide all the links.

Now I have the problem of my family as my wife was raised in the church her father a former stake president and bishop before that. There is no way she leaves the church and I am 100 % sure if i confronted her on all i know to be true she would leave me and take my son. And to be honest i can't blame her as the church is all she has ever known it would be like shell shock to her and I am not sure she would ever re cover. To that end I am tempted just to live a lie for the rest of my life rather than the alternative for 2 reasons. I love my wife and child more than anyhting on this earth , and to be honest i don't think I have the heart / guts to tell her what I believe in fear of the pain she would go through.

If anyone has any advise -- i sure could use some.

Thank you

[Outshined]

Originally posted by ChicagoGuy@Mar 2 2005, 07:37 PM

EVERY piece of reseach I do blows the Book of Mormon , POGP, and Joself Smith  out of the water.   i mean if it was a murder trial it would be an open and shut case against the church being legitimate -- thats how much evidence is out there against it.

I'd say this is the conclusion you are trying to reach, as I've yet to see such convincing "evidence". And yes, I've read all the anti stuff there is to see. I was raised Baptist, too.

EDIT: If you really look, you'll find the same 'evidence' telling you that God does not exist, that it's all hopeless. It's all in how you listen, I suppose. There is no shortage of 'experts' who are willing to tell you that what you believe (whatever it is) is a lie.

[Traveler]

Matthew 7:15-16 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

The above scripture is one of the most misquoted and misunderstood scriptures in the Bible. What are the fruits of "false prophets"? In the example given by Christ, he tells us of men that gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles. What a strange thing to say - men do not get grapes from thorn bushes or figs from plants that produce thistles. You get grapes from grape vines and figs from fig trees.

Your problem is that you are gathering LDS grapes from Baptist thorn bushes. You should get Baptist fruit from Baptist and LDS fruit from LDS otherwise you fall pray to false prophets.

The Traveler

[Lindy]

edited and transferred to different thread

[Lindy]

So don't tell her the garbage you dug up to discredit the church for yourself, at least you love her enough to spare her that pain.

My main feelings on all the "research" that is done to discredit the church.....is that satan works very hard to destroy what is good.

And being raised Baptist....that shouldn't be a factor in anything......I was raised Methodist/Nazarene myself. And IMHO....don't blame joining the church on "peer pressure" you were old enough to make an important decision like that on you own.

Hope is a four letter word CGuy a four letter word that we live with at one time or other in our lives. ....and so is Wife, Fear, and Pain and just remember that LOVE is the best four letter word...... don't try to bring your wife down to whatever level you are at in the church, that wouldn't be fair to her. Pray, read and stay away from things that try to destroy your testimony.

Hope things get better.

L.

[ChicagoGuy]

you said I was pushed into the church. hmmmm what do you call being one of the only non members in a small Utah town going to Jr. college. having at least 5 people a day approach you about the church -- having missionaries thrown at me once a week by roomates and dormates , etc, etc.

I am not saying I didn't make up my own mind to REALLY become a member later but I was pushed into being baptised at least.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

i also thought at the same time i really apreciated the principles it was founded on and i loved how most mormons just seemed so genuine and kind. But during this time I alo held out hope it was true and was never really sure either way.

Maybe there is one true church and maybe there isn't. If you look around and decide that another church than the LDS Church is the true church, by all means go to it. If you look around and decide that there isn't one true church, then you've got to sit down and do a nice, rational cost/benefit analysis. Obviously, if the Church's historical claims aren't true, then that's a great big mark in the debit column. You have to ask yourself (1) whether the goodness you find in the Church and its communities outweighs that debit, and (2) whether other churches or philosophies have any better "balance sheets" in that department. Sometimes I wonder if we aren't all doing a lot more grasping about in the shadows than any of us want to admit. IF you've found the Church to be an institution that teaches divine truths and produces kind and happy people, that's not peanuts.

There is some intriguing evidence for the literal truth of the Church's teachings that Mormon apologists have developed. There's also some pretty strong evidence on the other side. For some people, none of this matters: they've received an unmistakeable spiritual witness that the Church is ultimately true, never mind the details. I'm not one of them, so my testimony of the Church has to be based on other things.

I'm lucky enough to be married to a person with a similar outlook, so I'm afraid I don't have any practical advice to you on that particular area.

[ChicagoGuy]

Originally posted by Outshined+Mar 2 2005, 07:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Outshined @ Mar 2 2005, 07:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ChicagoGuy@Mar 2 2005, 07:37 PM

EVERY piece of reseach I do blows the Book of Mormon , POGP, and Joself Smith  out of the water.   i mean if it was a murder trial it would be an open and shut case against the church being legitimate -- thats how much evidence is out there against it.

I'd say this is the conclusion you are trying to reach, as I've yet to see such convincing "evidence". And yes, I've read all the anti stuff there is to see. I was raised Baptist, too.

EDIT: If you really look, you'll find the same 'evidence' telling you that God does not exist, that it's all hopeless. It's all in how you listen, I suppose. There is no shortage of 'experts' who are willing to tell you that what you believe (whatever it is) is a lie.

I was able to deal with the Abraham facimilies , Entire book of abraham, Kinderhook plates, links to masonry , salamander letter , many discrepencies on JS , discrepencies in the Book of Mormon , the fact there is zero histroical eveidence anything in the BOM ever took place. Okay maybe not competly overlook all that -- but i also read a few months ago in USA Today that undeniable DNA evidence links Native americans to asian/ polyniesian decent.

Look i get your point about being able to prove anyting wrong -- that was the thing i told myself all these years that helped me stay with the mormon church in belief. granted Catholics were founded by a Roman emperor , the other churches are just branches off of that church. I am not saying anyone is correct.

as for my family I rreally don't know how to handle as it's getting tougher every day. I hope one day I believe again but as of now that is not a promising prospect.

[ChicagoGuy]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 2 2005, 08:02 PM

i also thought at the same time i really apreciated the principles it was founded on and i loved how most mormons just seemed so genuine and kind. But during this time I alo held out hope it was true and was never really sure either way.

Maybe there is one true church and maybe there isn't. If you look around and decide that another church than the LDS Church is the true church, by all means go to it. If you look around and decide that there isn't one true church, then you've got to sit down and do a nice, rational cost/benefit analysis. Obviously, if the Church's historical claims aren't true, then that's a great big mark in the debit column. You have to ask yourself (1) whether the goodness you find in the Church and its communities outweighs that debit, and (2) whether other churches or philosophies have any better "balance sheets" in that department. Sometimes I wonder if we aren't all doing a lot more grasping about in the shadows than any of us want to admit. IF you've found the Church to be an institution that teaches divine truths and produces kind and happy people, that's not peanuts.

There is some intriguing evidence for the literal truth of the Church's teachings that Mormon apologists have developed. There's also some pretty strong evidence on the other side. For some people, none of this matters: they've received an unmistakeable spiritual witness that the Church is ultimately true, never mind the details. I'm not one of them, so my testimony of the Church has to be based on other things.

I'm lucky enough to be married to a person with a similar outlook, so I'm afraid I don't have any practical advice to you on that particular area.

Awesome response ! I remember reading a fe of your posts a few years ago !

People that say they have a definite spiritual witness and feeling of the Churchs truth though. people have that with many mnay religions if they are all true there might be a little problem :)

I wish my wife had more of the outlook in which you speak of.

Yes I see the church as a place that produces some of the kindest people i have ever met and many of the principles I really believe in if not all of them. though when you believe the entire premise of the church to be a fraud it makes for just a little conflict

[Outshined]

Originally posted by ChicagoGuy@Mar 2 2005, 08:07 PM

but i also read a few months ago in USA Today that undeniable DNA evidence links Native americans to asian/ polyniesian decent.

The book is far from closed on the DNA subject. Yes, an Asian/Polynesian link exists, but it can not be said that it is the only ancestry of the Native Americans.

Some reading: http://www.fairlds.com/apol/ai195.html Some interesting stuff there on DNA and the BOM.

Check the LDS section on my website as well; you might find some answers there (shameless plug). http://www.ilikelife.com

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Yes I see the church as a place that produces some of the kindest people i have ever met and many of the principles I really believe in if not all of them. though when you believe the entire premise of the church to be a fraud it makes for just a little conflict.

Yeah, it would do that.

What would you say is the "entire premise of the church"?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Outshined+Mar 2 2005, 07:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Outshined @ Mar 2 2005, 07:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ChicagoGuy@Mar 2 2005, 07:37 PM

EVERY piece of reseach I do blows the Book of Mormon , POGP, and Joself Smith  out of the water.   i mean if it was a murder trial it would be an open and shut case against the church being legitimate -- thats how much evidence is out there against it.

I'd say this is the conclusion you are trying to reach, as I've yet to see such convincing "evidence". And yes, I've read all the anti stuff there is to see. I was raised Baptist, too.

EDIT: If you really look, you'll find the same 'evidence' telling you that God does not exist, that it's all hopeless. It's all in how you listen, I suppose. There is no shortage of 'experts' who are willing to tell you that what you believe (whatever it is) is a lie.

Excellent points!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Traveler@Mar 2 2005, 07:51 PM

Matthew 7:15-16 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

The above scripture is one of the most misquoted and misunderstood scriptures in the Bible. What are the fruits of "false prophets"? In the example given by Christ, he tells us of men that gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles. What a strange thing to say - men do not get grapes from thorn bushes or figs from plants that produce thistles. You get grapes from grape vines and figs from fig trees.

Your problem is that you are gathering LDS grapes from Baptist thorn bushes. You should get Baptist fruit from Baptist and LDS fruit from LDS otherwise you fall pray to false prophets.

The Traveler

I have never heard it stated this way or explained quite so uniquely! Awesome!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Mar 2 2005, 07:56 PM

So don't tell her the garbage you dug up to discredit the church for yourself, at least you love her enough to spare her that pain.

My main feelings on all the "research" that is done to discredit the church.....is that satan works very hard to destroy what is good.

And being raised Baptist....that shouldn't be a factor in anything......I was raised Methodist/Nazarene myself. And IMHO....don't blame joining the church on "peer pressure" you were old enough to make an important decision like that on you own.

Hope is a four letter word CGuy a four letter word that we live with at one time or other in our lives. ....and so is Wife, Fear, and Pain and just remember that LOVE is the best four letter word...... don't try to bring your wife down to whatever level you are at in the church, that wouldn't be fair to her. Pray, read and stay away from things that try to destroy your testimony.

Hope things get better.

L.

:) Thanks for these words of wisdom!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ChicagoGuy@Mar 2 2005, 07:59 PM

you said I was pushed into the church.  hmmmm  what do you call being one of the only non members in a small Utah town  going to Jr. college.  having at least 5 people a day approach you about the church -- having missionaries thrown at me once a week by roomates and dormates , etc, etc. 

I am not saying I didn't make up my own mind to REALLY become a member later but I was pushed into being baptised at least.

Pushed? I thought one was supposed to walk into the waters voluntarily. I have heard of the baseball baptisms and the ice cream cone baptisms, but never the pushed baptisms. LOL

So were you presssured by your peers to marry a Mormon?

[Amillia]

ChicagoGuy,

Did you know that the Bible is as good as written by William Shakespear? And that most every church out there has what is perceived by non-believers as dirty laundry?

Did you know that the history of the world has been written and rewritten with different slants and biases over and over again?

Can you say that all of what you have read about the church history actually came from those people and that the people who wrote those histories were giving accurate accounts?

Did you know that I saw on one discussion board a quote attributed to JS which stated one thing and then another quote also attributed to JS that totally contradicted the first quote? After much discussion, it was found out that these quotes were actually from other people of JS's time quoting him according to what they thought he said.

You really have to dig deeper than anti-mormon sights to get at the real truth about the church history.

[Outshined]

Chicago, you didn't tell us how you feel about Christianity in general. Should we assume you still believe in God? I can't be sure from the information you've given us so far, but it sounds like a lot of your current feelings on the Church stem from intellectual examination rather than a spritual condition.

When we read lots of 'information' from people trying to disprove our beliefs, it can bring us down spiritually, and the ultimate goal of these people is exactly what you're going through now. I had a friend when I was young who decided he would prove that the Bible was true, but ended up an Atheist because science told him that so much was impossible. Men can't heal others, can't raise the dead, and certainly don't come back from the dead. It was too much for him.

See, you mentioned the DNA research, which was done in an effort to disprove LDS beliefs. That same research also claims that man and the chimpanzee have a common ancestor, which I do not believe; I've read the research, and that's one of the details the critics avoid. Read the link I posted; there are some interesting points made by LDS scholars on the subject.

Read not only the scholarly stuff, but sit down with the Bible and the Book of Mormon and read. Ponder the words and see what God says to you. The times I've wondered myself if these things were really possible, my strongest testimony has come from the scriptures themselves, not the history of the church leaders of the past.

As to your family, I suggest you simply be sensitive to their feelings and beliefs. If you decided that God did not exist, you certainly wouldn't ask the rest of your family to stop believing, would you? If you must, just tell your wife that you are having spritual doubts, and that it is something you need to work through; there is no need to try to convince her that her beliefs are false. In a worst-case scenario, that you leave the Church, always support her in her beliefs. If she is a strong woman, she'll do the same for you. The important thing here is not that she believe the same as you do, but that you both live the faith you have.

I have many friends and family members who are of different faiths; Jewish, Catholic, and various evangelical branches. We don't argue about religion because the important thing is living what you believe. I gained that view from years in the military and living in different countries where I could see other faiths at work. My wife and I are the only Latter-day Saints in either family, but we get along fine.

Don't give in to the desperation you feel; read the scriptures, and ponder them. I believe that the answer to your doubts and concerns will be given in time.

In Christ,

-Outshined

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 3 2005, 06:08 AM

Chicago, you didn't tell us how you feel about Christianity in general. Should we assume you still believe in God? I can't be sure from the information you've given us so far, but it sounds like a lot of your current feelings on the Church stem from intellectual examination rather than a spritual condition.

When we read lots of 'information' from people trying to disprove our beliefs, it can bring us down spiritually, and the ultimate goal of these people is exactly what you're going through now. I had a friend when I was young who decided he would prove that the Bible was true, but ended up an Atheist because science told him that so much was impossible. Men can't heal others, can't raise the dead, and certainly don't come back from the dead. It was too much for him.

See, you mentioned the DNA research, which was done in an effort to disprove LDS beliefs. That same research also claims that man and the chimpanzee have a common ancestor, which I do not believe; I've read the research, and that's one of the details the critics avoid. Read the link I posted; there are some interesting points made by LDS scholars on the subject.

Read not only the scholarly stuff, but sit down with the Bible and the Book of Mormon and read. Ponder the words and see what God says to you. The times I've wondered myself if these things were really possible, my strongest testimony has come from the scriptures themselves, not the history of the church leaders of the past.

As to your family, I suggest you simply be sensitive to their feelings and beliefs. If you decided that God did not exist, you certainly wouldn't ask the rest of your family to stop believing, would you? If you must, just tell your wife that you are having spritual doubts, and that it is something you need to work through; there is no need to try to convince her that her beliefs are false. In a worst-case scenario, that you leave the Church, always support her in her beliefs. If she is a strong woman, she'll do the same for you. The important thing here is not that she believe the same as you do, but that you both live the faith you have.

I have many friends and family members who are of different faiths; Jewish, Catholic, and various evangelical branches. We don't argue about religion because the important thing is living what you believe. I gained that view from years in the military and living in different countries where I could see other faiths at work. My wife and I are the only Latter-day Saints in either family, but we get along fine.

Don't give in to the desperation you feel; read the scriptures, and ponder them. I believe that the answer to your doubts and concerns will be given in time.

In Christ,

-Outshined

Wonderful Post Outshined, Thanks.

[ChicagoGuy]

First - I do believe in God but right now I am not sure I can call myself any religon. Though I do still consider myself christian in nature -- though I am still a emmber of the LDS church.

On the DNA thing -- it was not done by poeple trying to discredit the church it was done by a LDS Bishop who was trying to do the opposite.

Can you find reasons to not believe in any church - of course you can ! For me it just seems there is so many evident reasons that this entire church was founded upon fraudulent means.

To Proud Duck - When I said premise i meant the Book of Morman and Joself Smith.

The way I feel right now is that I just opened my eyes and seen things for how they really are and now wish i never opened my eyes at all.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by ChicagoGuy@Mar 3 2005, 10:37 AM

The way I feel right now is that I just opened my eyes and seen things for how they really are and now wish i never opened my eyes at all.

When it comes to matters of Faith everything else is just fluff.

I had my sons Neuro Surgeon tell me that because he had not come out of a coma on the 4th day things didn't looks so good. Before he said that I was walking on pure faith. I let this man of "all knowing" temporally destroyed that. The next several hours I lived in pain and anguish. Then the thought came to my head that although this man is very good at what he does and I respected him, he is still just a man. Men are not perfect. I went back to the core of my being and communicated with my Father In Heaven, what was His Will? Nick is now doing very well considering where he has been.

Find your Faith again and build upon one thing and then another even if it is your faith that the sun will be there again in the morning.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ChicagoGuy@Mar 3 2005, 10:37 AM

First -  I do believe in God but right now I am not sure I can call myself any religon.   Though I do still consider myself christian in nature -- though I am still a emmber of the LDS church.

On the DNA thing -- it was not done by poeple trying to discredit the church it was done by a LDS Bishop who was trying to do the opposite.   

Can you find reasons to not believe in any church - of course you can !   For me it just seems there is so many evident reasons that this entire church was founded upon fraudulent means.

To Proud Duck -  When I said premise i meant the Book of Morman and Joself Smith. 

The way I feel right now is that I just opened my eyes and seen things for how they really are and now  wish i never opened my eyes at all.

But there are two kinds of facts.

Consider Abrahams facts:

He was made a promise from the Lord that his decendants would exceed the number of sands in the sea.....then he was made to wait until his wife was past the years of baring a child.....in their doubting of the Lord and His promise....and trying to fulfill it themselves through a handmaden, don't you think they began to wonder about God's reality? The reality of their promise? The reality of everything they had believed in?

Then they were given a son through Sarah miraculously. The promise was fulfilled. Then what? God comes and commands Abraham to take that promised son and sacrifice him.

Again, what do you think had to be going through Abrahams mind? Was this Satan telling him to kill the promised son? Was it really God and if so, why?

Put yourself totally in this man's shoes through all of this. If anyone had a good reason to doubt that God was really asking this, Abraham did. It didn't fit men's logic, or reasoning. It sounded false and sinful and wrong, so it must be from Satan. Right?

But Abraham didn't go by logic, or what men claimed was right or wrong. He went by the Spirit. He followed what his spiritual heart told Him he must do ~ obey God and trust in Him.

When it comes to things about how the church came about and the scriptures which had come from it, one could logically and educationally claim it to be of the devil.

But by it's fruits you may know it isn't.

Don't you think that as God was planting good works through the prophet JS and others, that Satan, knowing of the importance and magniftude of this work, didn't plant his own evil works to confound the weak in spirit?

Don't you see how the world has taken things like marriage, morality, and truth and turned it upside down on their heads with logic, facts, and their truth?

It is a fact, that if you don't find God's works through Him and HIs Spirit, you won't find them at all.

D&C 76: 116

116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

Jacob 4: 8

8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.

2 Pet. 1: 21

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by ChicagoGuy@Mar 3 2005, 10:37 AM

On the DNA thing -- it was not done by poeple trying to discredit the church it was done by a LDS Bishop who was trying to do the opposite.   

I've read several reports on the DNA studies, and none mentioned an LDS Bishop.

In any case, read the link I gave you; there are two sides to every claim.

http://www.fairlds.com/apol/ai195.html has several reports on the DNA research by LDS scholars.

[ChicagoGuy]

Amilia , straw -- i appreciate your sentiments.

I have so many questions about the church that I don't think anyone in the church can really answer. From the 3 degrees of heaven being written about year before Joself Smith almost exactly as he describes them , The Temple ceremonies being almost identical to Free masonry , native Americans having asian DNA , Tithing being stressed so much by the church when in reality the only scripture that speaks on tithing speaks on tithing from your surplus not on income , Pentagrams in the Navoou Temple Clestial room , The story of Israelites coming to america being written about many years before Joself Smith by a person not far from where he grew up and many things in both books are identical , JS translating fake plates after being tricked by farmers , The Book of abraham scrolls being nothing more a burial rite in Egypt and not even close to the age of Abraham , The POGP facililies not even close to what thye description says it is , the fact there is NO physocal evidence that the Nephites/ lamanites ever existed -- you would think that 2 great civilations living here 2000 - 1700 years ago would have left something behind , Several animals mentioned in the BOM as being over on this continent were impossible as they never existed here , the reasons go on , on , on on on on, and on.

Granted Catholism was founded by a Roman Emporeor not Peter and all other religions are based on catholism. I am not saying any other church is right only that I do not believe at all that the LDS can possible be true

[Outshined]

Chicago, there are so many misconceptions in your last post. I will begin to deal with some of them in a while. I think you've definitiely been given too much anti stuff to read with too little spiritual influence.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by ChicagoGuy@Mar 3 2005, 11:42 AM

The Temple ceremonies being almost identical to Free masonry

Not so. Have you been to a Mason ceremony? There are a few similarities, but no more than perhaps ten percent. This is a claim antis make much of, but it falls short under scrutiny, as much of this does.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/mormons.htm

native Americans having asian DNA

Again, some Native Americans have some Asian DNA markers. The reports in the link I gave you show that it isn't quite so cut-and-dry as you're making it out to be.

Tithing being stressed so much by the church when in reality the only scripture that speaks on tithing speaks on tithing from your surplus not on income

Tithe is a tenth. Your increase is the increase in your worth, as in income. Every church I've ever attended, LDS or Baptist, urges you to tithe on your income. This is not an LDS thing, it's in the Bible.

Pentagrams in the Navoou Temple Clestial room

This is a bit comical. "Celestial" pertains to Heaven; stars are in the heavens. The symbols in the Celestial room are stars. Sometimes it's in the eye of the beholder, I suppose, but stars are what they are.

The story of Israelites coming to america being written about many years before Joself Smith by a person not far from where he grew up and many things in both books are identical

I presume you are referring to the Spaulding manuscript. The problem here is that his book in no way resembles the BOM; yes, I've read it. Critics claim there must be a second Spaulding manuscript somewhere, but it has never appeared. This has always been a bogus claim.

JS translating fake plates after being tricked by farmers

Are we talking about the kinderhook plates? Read up on it by all means before you condemn JS. http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/respons.../kinderhook.htm

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai026.html

The Book of abraham scrolls being nothing more a burial rite in Egypt and not even close to the age of Abraham , The POGP facililies not even close to what thye description says it is

A lot of ground to cover on that subject; lets just say you shouldn't be so sure you know the story on the BOA. http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai125.html I have more after you finish that.

the fact there is NO physocal evidence that the Nephites/ lamanites ever existed -- you would think that 2 great civilations living here 2000 - 1700 years ago would have left something behind

With almost none of South American BOM-era sites examined yet, and most of what has been found a mystery to scientists, what makes you think they didn't? LINK

Several animals mentioned in the BOM as being over on this continent were impossible as they never existed here ,

Nope, that one keeps falling apart. http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/main.html

the reasons go on , on , on on on on, and on.

I'm sorry, but it seems like the excuses go on and on and on. If I have answers available, so should you, which implies that you've looked harder for reasons not to believe.

If you really want answers, they are available, and the "evidence" against the Church isn't nearly as solid as you seem to think it is.

In Christ,

-Outshined