Book Of Mormon Stumbling Block

[Jason]

I doubt everyone knew Jacobian English either, nor Akkadian (there's an Akkadian word in the text... interestingly; no one could read Akkadian during Joseph's time).

Really? Interesting. Where?

Do you have a source that it was to be done "in a language that everyone understood," or is this merely your opinion?

Can you offer a better reason to include non-English words into an English translation to be read by the masses, as opposed to the educated elite?

[Doctor Steuss]

First and foremost, I want to apologize if some of my comments regarding this subject come off as snarky. I just never thought that it was actually a point of contention, and I’m having a bit of trouble shifting gears out of my paradigm to see how it might be viewed as legitimate by another.

Really? Interesting. Where?

Mosiah 9: 9

And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum, and with seeds of all manner of fruits; and we did begin to multiply and prosper in the land. ****

Can you offer a better reason to include non-English words into an English translation to be read by the masses, as opposed to the educated elite?

Do you have any evidence that only the educated elite in 19th Century upstate New York would know the meaning of adieu as opposed to some of the Jaccobian English words contained in the text (such as “yea”)? Seems to me that a word that entered the English language around the 14th Century would have mingled into the vocabularies of at least a few English speakers that weren’t the educated elite (such as the unlearned farm boy Joseph Smith… how on earth did he know this esoteric word?). If the word banquet had found it’s way into the BoM translation, would that cause similar problems (as it didn’t enter English until approx. 100 years after adieu)?

Shakespeare used adieu quite frequently. Or if you want something of that time period, there are several Methodist hymns that utilize the word adieu. Methodism was part of America from (conservatively) McKendree’s election in the early 1800’s (I believe 1811[?]). This would seemingly help in the circulation of this word into the vocabulary of at least a few of the pious Methodists that were having their camp meetings in New York in the early periods of Joseph's life.

Or, perhaps this will hit a little closer home, in Irenaeus’ "Against Heresies,” at least one translator renders a portion in the following way:

But who are they that have left father and mother, and have said adieu to all their neighbours, on account of the word of God and His covenant, unless the disciples of the Lord?

http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html -- Is this a valid translation? Was he trying to make this translation out of the reach of anyone who wasn't part of the educated elite?

Also, the word is used in an LDS Hymn (#52) -- which was penned by a non-Mormon. It was also used in The Times and Seasons (the early LDS periodical) several times -- which would seemingly indicate that it was known amongst contemporaries of that time and not something for only the educated elite to comprehend. Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife) even received a letter from her non-LDS husband (Bidamon) that said:

“Adeau, dear Emma, for the present. Give my warmest affections to the children and all inquireing friends, and curses to my enmeys!”

I have never heard her second husband described as part of the educated elite.

The translator (Joseph Smith) evidently knew the word and felt it [“adieu”] was a good fit. Reaching for any reason beyond that is straining at gnats.

****Edited addenda to "sheum."

This of course isn't anything all that special though. It could have simply been a lucky guess that he used an Akkadian word that is associated with grain and cereal in a context that fits its meaning. Lest you think I was trumpeting it as “proof” of Joseph having a text in front of him that had a place in antiquity, it is merely a “curiosity” IMO that makes me go, “hmmmm…”

[Jason]

First and foremost, I want to apologize if some of my comments regarding this subject come off as snarky. I just never thought that it was actually a point of contention, and I’m having a bit of trouble shifting gears out of my paradigm to see how it might be viewed as legitimate by another.

Oh we all get "snarky" now and then. Best thing is to brush it off and move on to the next post.

Now you said that the word "sheum" in Mosiah 9:9 is an Akkadian word. I don't know Akkadian, nor do I know anyone who reads or speaks Akkaidan, so can you tell me or give me a link on where I can find someone who can verify that "sheum" is a word in Akkadian?

Also, I read from Wikipedia that there are five varieties of Akkadian. Which linguistic period of Akkadian does the word "sheum" fit into? Is it the Babylonian Period as might be expected, or would it fall into an earlier period that would not correspond into the realm of likelihood?

Do you have any evidence that only the educated elite in 19th Century upstate New York would know the meaning of adieu as opposed to some of the Jaccobian English words contained in the text (such as “yea”)?

No. I am hoping someone can provide us with that evidence. Otherwise it's left up to anyone's best guess.

Seems to me that a word that entered the English language around the 14th Century would have mingled into the vocabularies of at least a few English speakers that weren’t the educated elite (such as the unlearned farm boy Joseph Smith… how on earth did he know this esoteric word?).

That could be, but it's that's not an assumption I'm willing to make at the moment.

Shakespeare used adieu quite frequently. Or if you want something of that time period, there are several Methodist hymns that utilize the word adieu. Methodism was part of America from (conservatively) McKendree’s election in the early 1800’s (I believe 1811[?]). This would seemingly help in the circulation of this word into the vocabulary of at least a few of the pious Methodists that were having their camp meetings in New York in the early periods of Joseph's life.

Now that's at least a good reason to believe it was a known word, at least for Methodists (and we all know that Joseph Smith joined the Methodists a couple years after the First Vision).

Or, perhaps this will hit a little closer home, in Irenaeus’ "Against Heresies,” at least one translator renders a portion in the following way:

But who are they that have left father and mother, and have said adieu to all their neighbours, on account of the word of God and His covenant, unless the disciples of the Lord?

http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html -- Is this a valid translation? Was he trying to make this translation out of the reach of anyone who wasn't part of the educated elite?

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this? How does this bolster the pro-adieu position? When was the translation done?

... It was also used in The Times and Seasons (the early LDS periodical) several times -- which would seemingly indicate that it was known amongst contemporaries of that time and not something for only the educated elite to comprehend.

That or they read the Book of Mormon written years earlier and learned a nifty French word and wanted to propagate it's use. I don't think anything written more than five years after the publication of the BoM constitutes contemporary usage. I think your examples of the usage which pre-date 1830 are more valid, IMO.

The translator (Joseph Smith) evidently knew the word and felt it [“adieu”] was a good fit. Reaching for any reason beyond that is straining at gnats.

The only argument I am making is that it's silly to use the word as part of an English translation. Does your French text use "go with god" instead of "adieu"?

[Doctor Steuss]

My last post was a quick (and quite lazy) response that didn't include much research on my part. Hopefully this will redeem me, and establish that adieu was fairly commonplace amongst Joseph's contemporaries, and at least show that this particular "stumbling block" is a creation of presentism and not actuality.

This is from the Christian Register and Boston Observer, Saturday, August 22, 1840, Vol. XIX No. 34 -- This is a Boston newspaper that was "Devoted to Unitarian Christianity, Sound Morals, Literature and News"

They are making many proselytes in the Southern States, and in England, as well as in the West. Truth is mighty! -- So is error! May 'the truth as it is in Jesus' prevail, by whatever name it goes. Adieu,

Truly yours, W. P. H.

This is from The Mormon, Saturday, July 12, 1856, Vol. II -- Although this is an LDS "friendly" periodical, it was nonetheless circulated to the general populous:

They were then permitted to bid adieu to their mother and families, and were told that "to-morrow they die at 9 o'clock," from which fate they were providentially saved through the interference of the gallant General Doniphan, who declared to Major General Lucas, "It is cool blooded murder; and if you execute them I will hold you responsible before an earthly tribunal.

This is from the Voree Herald, April,1846, Vol.I. No. 4 -- published in "Voree, W. T.", I believe this was one of James Strange's periodicals.

I have not time to write more. I would be glad to hear from you as soon as convenient. Adieu -- mat the God of love and peace direct all your footsteps and bring us at last unto his heavenly kingdom.

This is from the Daily Missouri Republican, Thurs. May 13, 1846, Vol. XXIV No. 3898 -- This newspaper was published in St. Louis, Missouri and was far from "friendly" to Mormons.

[...]the spectator cannot fail to be struck with the lightness of heart, apparent cheerfulness, and sanguine hopes with which families bid adieu to their friends, and set out on their journey.

This is from The Niagra Democrat, June 2, 1837, Vo. II. No. 40 -- This publication was from Lockport, NY

Turner here bids his readers a final adieu, in a valedictory column, saying his "active participation" probably "will not again be resumed," -- however he soon enough returned to the controlling reins at the Niagara Democrat.

This is from Republican Advocate, Friday, Sep. 22, 1826, Vol. 15 No. 763 -- Published in "Batavia," this one is prior to the establishment of the LDS Church.

[...]by a Canadian Spy of the name of Daniel Johns and headed by a citizen of Le Roy, who must ever bid adieu to the character of a Legislator after having headed such a lawless assemblage, who openly avowed their intention of destroying my printing establishment; and which would have been done, is admitted by Masons in this village, but for Mrs. Morgan's having delivered up certain papers on that day.

This is from the Chicago Times, Saturday, August 7, 1875 -- a newspaper (whose name should still be familiar) published in Chicago, Il. Although it is slightly outside of the publication of the BoM, I still think it is a valid example of the use of the word adieu amongst the general public in America.

The same year the faithful bade a friendly adieu to Clay county and settled in Caldwell, founding the historic town of Far West which soon became prosperous and populous. At this time Joe Smith was a banker at Kirtland, but in 1837 his bank suspended payment and Joe made good time to Far West where he again assumed the leadership of his flock.

This is from the Republican Compiler, January 7, 1834, Vol. 16 No. 18. -- A periodical published in Gettysburg. The title of the article is kind of funny that this appears in. It is "THE MORMONITES AGAIN."

It is in vain to deny, that sectarian influence has nothing to do in this matter-the stake and the fagot was anciently used to burn heretics, and if they are to be revived again, we may bid adieu to liberty equality, and the rights of man!

This is from the Warsaw Message, January 17, 1844, Vol. I. No 4. -- A newpaper from Warsaw, Illinois

If so, farewell freedom; adieu to personal safety, and let the red hot wrath of an offended God purify the nation of such sinks of corruption! For that realm is hurrying to ruin where vice has the power to expel virtue.

This is from the Kansas City Daily Journal June 5, 1881 -- Published in Kansas City, Mo. It is a little into the future, but close enough to be a contemporary IMO.

This ended the interview ad after bidding the old man adieu and thanking him for his kindness the writer took his leave.

This is from the Lee County Democrat, June 15, 1844, Vol. III. - No. 48., Whole No. 152 -- Published in "Fort Madison, I. T.", this is technically an Iowa periodical.

The freedom and liberty of the press should at all times be guarded against violence, and we predict that if such an act of outrage is permitted to be passed over, then indeed we may bid adieu to our sacred liberties.

This one is from an LDS publication which still stands, the Deseret News, Wed., September 23, 1857., No. 29. Vol. VII -- Published in SLC, Utah.

We are united in virtue and truth, and we set hell at defiance, and all her agents. Adieu.

This is another one that predates the formation of the LDS Church. This is from the Western Review, November, 1819, Vol. I. No. 4 -- Published in Lexington, Ky.

Hence the inundation of those barbarous hordes, who, issuing from the mountains of the north, bade adieu to their barren abodes and destroyed every thing in their progress towards more genial climes, until they were themselves destroyed.

This is a letter from a Mormon that was published in the Morning Chronicle, Tuesday June 21, 1842, Vol. 1. - No. 266. -- Published out of Pittsburgh. Interesting side note (at least to me). The cover price was "2 cents."

So, adieu to that "Document" for the present; I shall notice the "Book of Mormon," and "Book of Doctrine and Covenants," referred to in "Mormonism Exposed."

JOHN E. PAGE,

From the Pittsburgh Daily Gazette and Advertiser, Friday Morning, June 13, 1845, Vol. XII. No. 266.

Adieu till then. D. N. W.

This one is from the Christian Baptist, February 7, 1825, Vol. II No. 7 -- Published out of Buffaloe, Brooke Co., Va, this also predates the formation of the LDS Church. I believe this may have been a Cambelite publication.

returned the compliment by pitying him, and after a few ceremonies and compliments we bade adieu, The editor of the Luminary also published some threats of what they are going to do with me; but as yet they have attempted nothing that has seen the light....

Hopefully this will put an end to the whole adieu thing and show that it was used fairly commonly by contemporaries and was hardly an esoteric word. It (IMO) appears to have been just as much an “English” word as a “French” word during Joseph’s time in America.

And (of course), I would like to acknowledge "Uncle" Dale Broadhurst for being so charitable in allowing free access to his vast archives of periodicals dealing with "Mormonism."

[Josie]

We know that although Joseph Smith only had a third grade education, he was very well read and studied much and encouraged the saints to study and broaden their understandings in all areas, not just the scriptures.

One correction: Joseph Smith tells us in his short history in the BoM that he did not join any church, although he did have interest in the Methodist Church for a time and studied it. He was told to join no Church in the first vision and did not join any church until he organized the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on April 6, 1830.

Because Joseph had no other text to help him while he was translating the BoM he had to use the only language he knew, and I am sure that at times it was hard to come up with the proper word for every phrase or word of a language totally unknown to him. (IMO)

Josie

[Doctor Steuss]

Now you said that the word "sheum" in Mosiah 9:9 is an Akkadian word. I don't know Akkadian, nor do I know anyone who reads or speaks Akkaidan, so can you tell me or give me a link on where I can find someone who can verify that "sheum" is a word in Akkadian?

Also, I read from Wikipedia that there are five varieties of Akkadian. Which linguistic period of Akkadian does the word "sheum" fit into? Is it the Babylonian Period as might be expected, or would it fall into an earlier period that would not correspond into the realm of likelihood?

Unfortunately, all I can provide is what might be deemed as LDS "propaganda." So, take it for what it's worth... There is "A Grammar of Akkadian" by John Huehnergard that was pulled up in my search of JSTOR (for "grain seum Akkadian"). Unforunately, this particular journal (from the Linguistic Society of America) is not covered in my general access of JSTOR... it's hit-and-miss with what University publications I can get for free -- and I really don't feel like forking out the cash for it (sorry).

Lewy notes that this often poses a challenge in interpreting references to cereals in Near Eastern documents. When doing so, "the meaning of these Old Assyrian terms must be inferred from the Old Assyrian texts alone without regard to their signification in sources from Babylonia and other regions adjacent to Assyria."1 Other Assyriologists have observed that the ancient Assyrian term sheum was used at various times to refer to barley, grains generally, and even pine nuts.2

It is worth noting that sheum is also mentioned in the Book of Mormon in an agricultural context (see Mosiah 9:9). It apparently refers to a New World crop cultivated in the land of Nephi that was designated by an Old World term. Use of this term in the Book of Mormon is itself significant, since Akkadian could not be read (and hence the term sheum was not known) until decades after the Book of Mormon was published.

Endnotes:

1. Hildegard Lewy, "On Some Old Assyrian Cereal Names," Journal of the American Oriental Society 76/4 (1956): 201.

2. See The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, ed. Ignace J. Gelb et al. (Chicago: Oriental Institute, 1992), vol. 17, pt. 2, 345–55.

From:

Barley and Wheat in the Book Mormon

And:

In discussing Book of Mormon grains, "early Akkadian she-um" should read simply "Akkadian sheum" (p. 1:173), as sheum is attested in all phases of the Akkadian language, and is ultimately of Sumerian origin.6

End note:

6. For the borrowing, see Proto-Ea 689, in Miguel Civil, ed., MSL XIV, vol. 14 of Materials for the Sumerian Lexicon (Rome: Pontificum Institutum Biblicum, 1979), 58. There are other Akkadian words for barley; see Antoine Cavigneaux, "Le nom akkadien du grain," Nouvelles Assyriologiques Brèves et Utilitaires 1990/3 (September 1990): 33.

From:

Review of The Encyclopedia of Mormonism by Daniel H. Ludlow

And:

According to Zeniff's record in the Book of Mormon account, "And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum" (Mosiah 9:9). "Pray tell me what kinds of grain neas and sheum are? Joseph Smith's translation needs another translation, to render it intelligible."35 "We must reluctantly pass on denying the existence of neas and sheum, and put them into the same category as the unidentifiable cureloms and cumoms."36 As it turns out sheum is a perfectly good Akkadian (ancient northern Mesopotamian) name for a grain dating to the third millennium B.C.37 This term, se um, (the s is pronounced sh in semitic languages) was a term by which these ancient Near Eastern peoples referred to barley, although it could also be applied to other kinds of grains. Book of Mormon peoples seem to have applied this Old World name to some New World crop. Could Joseph Smith have derived this name from some nineteenth century book? Impossible. Akkadian could not be read until 1857, twenty-seven years after the Book of Mormon was published and thirteen years after the Prophet was dead. This raises an interesting question. If Joseph Smith was really the author of the Book of Mormon, how did he come up with the word sheum? How did he just happen to choose this particular name and just happen to use it in an agricultural context?

Endnotes:

35 Origen Bacheler, Mormonism Exposed, 14.

36 Latayne Colvett Scott, The Mormon Mirage: A former Mormon tells why she left the Church (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1979), 84.

37 Hildegard Lewy, "On Some Old Assyrian Cereal Names," Journal of the American Oriental Society 76/4 (October-December 1956): 201-204.

From:

Right on Target: Boomerang Hits and the Book of Mormon

Now that's at least a good reason to believe it was a known word, at least for Methodists (and we all know that Joseph Smith joined the Methodists a couple years after the First Vision).

Do we know that? Do we really?

I'll try to respond to that tomorrow.

Maybe.

[Jason]

Well unfortunately we still don't know which linguistic period "sheum" comes from, and all we can do is guess how either Joseph Smith knew of the word, or, if one takes the book as literal, how the descendants of Lehi knew this Assyrian word.

I always find these little tidbits rather fascinating. I don't believe they sustain the literal interpretation of the Book of Mormon, but I think they might add weight to Smith's claim of Seership.

What constitutes membership in most Protestant churches is not what Mormons understand membership to be. I am not claiming he was baptized into the Methodist sect, but that he was at least a probationary member who apparently gave a sermon or two. He later withdrew his presence and began the "restoration".

[snipe123]

First of all, I cannot believe I'm being called out on a post that's over two years old!

<div class='quotemain'>

The Nephite's did not use English words either, so according to your argument, saying "goodbye" would have been unacceptable as well...:)

Wrong. The translation was to be done in a language that everyone understood. Do you think that everyone knew French in early 19th century America?

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The Book of Mormon is an English (with the above exception of course)translation of whatever words the Nephite's happened to use which we do not know...The plates were not in English or French since the Nephites did not speak either one...the word Adieu was not on the plates and neither were any of the other English words in the Book of Mormon...It is a translation of the Nephite characters that were on the plates... naturally Joseph Smith can translate them in whatever way would be most understood by its readers, and in a way that most accurately renders the meaning of the word...If a translation is to be best understood by the readers, then the job of the translator is to render the meaning into a language that people understand...

Tell me something I don't already know.

If Joseph Smith had translated the Nephite language into Latin(assuming he knew it), that would not have been very useful to the masses, since few people know it and noone uses it in common speech.

It is my understanding that Latin was taught in public school until the 1950's or later. Of course, French and German were pretty common as well. But does it make sense to include a Latin, French or German word into an ENGLISH text? I think you've already answered that in the negative.

Pig Latin is better known but not very reverent...:) If he had translated into pig latin or Latin, would you have cried foul since the Nephites didn't speak either one of these languages? Had Joseph Smith been French himself, and translated The Book of Mormon into French, would you have said he is a fraud because the Nephites could not have spoken French? What if he had inserted one English word into his French translation?

The word "adieu" does not make the BoM fradulent. But it doesn't do much for Smiths translating abilities, as I pointed out two years ago that "god be with you" or "go with god" would have been a perfect translation for this.

On another front, that he rendered his translation in King James English does not mean the Nephites spoke King James English(which is a criticism I have read elsewhere), it simply means he recognized King James English as beautiful and poetic, and frankly, the only English version of God's word that people were familiar with at that time...speaks again to the responsibility of a translator...

I think he did it to make it seem more like the rest of Scripture.

My only criticism of Joseph Smith on this issue is that in using a French word here, which most people in common English speech do not use, he has created some misunderstanding about translation...I would be curious to know if Adieu was a common term of departure in upstate New York by English speaking people (kinda like you hear "adios" far more often in San diego than its English equivelant) at the time of Joseph Smith...This is a far more interesting question since if it was, then in that case it would be a great rendering of the Nephite word (farewell with a blessing) for Joseph Smiths regional readers...I wonder if Joseph Smith or his family members commonly said good bye in this way? Have never read anything to say either way, but it does make me curious...

Again, I don't know how we can tell for sure, other than reviewing public news papers of the area and looking for the word in print.

The same argument above can be used when people criticize the word "Christian" used in the B of M before the time of Christ...not a Hebrew or Nephite word certainly...not really English either...and was not used until the time of The Apostle Paul...but lets assume for sake of argument that the Nephites had a word that was used to describe a "believer or follower of Christ, or the Messiah". I have no idea what the word was, but it wasn't "Christian" since that is not a Nephite word...So Joseph Smith comes along and sees a word ( a title) on the plates that denotes "a believer in Christ or the Messiah"...The job of a traslator is to render that word in a way that the reader understands...lets say the Nephite word title for a believer or follower of Christ was..."Tralla". Sorry to trivialise here. as I have no idea what the Nephite word was...it's just the first word that popped into my head and is only for illustration...:)

So for our example:

Tralla = Believer or follower of Christ or the Messiah

Christian= Believer or follower of Christ or the Messiah

So if Joseph Smith were to render the Nephite word in the best possible way that his English readers would understand, then he would translate the word "Tralla" as "Christian". Again, this is only for illustration...it would be silly to assume the Nephites used the actual New Testament word "Christian" similarly it would be silly to assume the Nephites used a French word "Adieu". They used their own word or title, in their own language, for a believer or follower of Christ, and their own word for "farewell". Joseph Smith gave us a translation of words, not the actual words themselves as spoken and written by The Nephites...if his account is to be believed that is...:)

Yeah, but notice Smith used the word "Christian" not the French "Chrétien". B)

Sorry, I had no idea that was a two year old post, but in your own words you said:

"Im still waiting for someone to adaquetly explain how the Nephites learn to say "Adieu", when even the French language didn't exist at the time? "

THat's what I saw, so I thought I would formulate a well thought out response...

To me it sounds like you were saying: How is it possible that the Nephites knew French? Or: How is it possible that they learned the word Adieu? Seems pretty obvious that you were asking that...I was answering your question...not "calling you out." I was simply pointing out that neither French, nor English words ever passed the lips of a Nephite...nor were French or English words used on the plates...We can agree that Smith picked a bad word since it has created a great deal of misunderstanding...which was also my point...otherwise, I would say he did a wonderful job and millions cherish the book, in whatever language they read it in...It may be a two year old post, but based on your response to it, it seems to me you still are not quite getting the point...Not trying to be inflamatory by saying that...I was just trying to answer the question...

[Doctor Steuss]

Well unfortunately we still don't know which linguistic period "sheum" comes from, and all we can do is guess how either Joseph Smith knew of the word, or, if one takes the book as literal, how the descendants of Lehi knew this Assyrian word.

I always find these little tidbits rather fascinating. I don't believe they sustain the literal interpretation of the Book of Mormon, but I think they might add weight to Smith's claim of Seership.

I sent an email to Susan Slyomovics. Hopefully she will respond (but, I fear I may have let a bit of my “Mormon intentions” leak through in the email, so despite the source of the email [i.e. the illustrious and egotistical moi], I doubt she will respond -- but fingers are crossed.

I agree that they are “fascinating” but not necessarily a tour de force to Joseph’s ability. Similar things could probably be found within the voluminous archives of the “sleeping prophet” Edgar Cayce. They do however cause pause. Seum/Sheum/Se-um isn’t really the most interesting one within the text that gets me. NHM/Nahom/Nehem is the one that really makes me pause (especially when compared to the ancient incense trail and the directions given in the BoM during Lehi’s trek through the Old World -- and also the position of a “bountiful.”)

Some of them are ultimately a difficulty as well though. Why could Joseph translate so many other words, but such things like “cureloms and cumoms” weren’t “translatable”? The majority of evidence points to the “tight translation theory” (such as the wealth of Hebraisms); however, there are little anachronisms within the text as well as theology that doesn’t necessarily match that of a pre-Deuteronomist Israelite that make one wonder if there was indeed a loose translation process. Then there is the heavy reliance of KJV translation of Isaiah that gives pause (although Skousen has shown that some of it was the copier/typesetter’s doing and not Joseph), yet at the same time there are variants that match the DSS and other such manuscripts of Isaiah. Tvedtnes did an interesting survey of the Isaiah variants in the BoM. I don’t know if they are online, but if you’re interested in such mundane analysis, I can see if there is at least a synopsis of his publication available via internet.

As a whole. They at least make one recognize (IMO) that despite his lack of education, he was a genius (if one takes the non-prophet stance).

What constitutes membership in most Protestant churches is not what Mormons understand membership to be. I am not claiming he was baptized into the Methodist sect, but that he was at least a probationary member who apparently gave a sermon or two. He later withdrew his presence and began the "restoration".

He attended the probationary classes, but he never (to my knowledge, unless you have evidence I’m not aware of) gave any “sermons” to the Methodist church he was involved with.

I lied though when I said I would “respond” to the accusation. I’m too damned lazy to transcribe crap today. But, if you’re interested, Pomeroy Tucker (a non-Mormon who knew Joseph during this period) gives an account in Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism (New York; D. Appleton and Company., 1867 -- [i say “Company,” but technically my version just has “Co.”]), pages 17-18… ok, maybe I’m not too lazy to give at least a small sampling:

”At one time he [Joseph -- which I’m sure you knew that the “he” was Joseph, but just being pretentious and adding it for clarity… and now I’m rambling] joined the probationary class of the Methodist Church in Palmyra, and made some active demonstrations of engagedness, though his assumed convictions were insufficiently grounded or abiding to carry him along to the saving point of conversion, and he soon withdrew from the class.” -- And here is where it gets interesting -- “The final conclusion announced by him was, that all sectarianism was fallacious, all the churches on a false foundation.”

When compared to Joseph’s own admissions, Tucker’s account is pretty much in-line with what Joseph himself had to say on the topic (i.e. “I became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them…. I was answered that I must join none of them…” etc., etc.).

PS.

Can we say adieu to “adieu,” or is it still a point of contention?

[Doctor Steuss]

We can agree that Smith picked a bad word since it has created a great deal of misunderstanding...

And yet (as far as I know... from my recent [and brief] research into this particular criticism [which I didn't even know was an actual criticism until yesterday]), it didn't cause this "great deal of misunderstanding" prior to James White's publication of Letters to a Mormon Elder. BTW, one of the greatest reviews I have ever read through RoBotBoM (now the FARMS Review) was done by Kerry Shirts (some may know him from his podcasts) and Russell McGregor (a frequent poster at MA&D; however he uses a moniker and prefers that he remain anonymous).

Here's a link to the review (it's long, but sooooo worth reading): Letters to an Anti-Mormon

But, back on topic. I have been unable to find any contemporary criticisms of this particular word usage. It seems to be a “fairly” recent home-grown anti-Mormon polemic developed by James White (who doesn’t think Mormons are Christian) followed by John Ankerberg and John Weldon, and eventually brandished by that ever-so-scholarly-and-honest “Christian,” Ed Decker.

[Jason]

I think the "adieu" issue has been safely put to bed. I hope we hear back from the Akkadian expert as well.

The "sermons" thing is something I found on wikipedia. Not a great reference, but here it what it says:

Smith had some interest in the Methodist denomination (Roberts 1902, vol. 1, ch. 1, p. 3). Smith's associate, Oliver Cowdery, later wrote that Smith was highly influenced by the teachings of a Rev. George Lane, a presiding Methodist Elder and an administrator in the Palmyra era during the intense revivals of 1824 and 1825 (Cowdery 1834b, p. 13); Lane's influence is confirmed by Joseph's brother William (Smith 1883). It is not known whether or not Smith attended a meeting at which Lane spoke, but Lane visited the nearby town of Vienna (15 miles (24 km) from Palmyra) for a large Methodist conference in 1819, and was a leader over the Palmyra area from 1824 to 1825 (Porter 1969, p. 330). Smith himself reportedly spoke during some of the local Methodist meetings, and he was described as a "very passable exhorter" (Turner 1852, p. 214). However, one of Smith's young acquaintances considered Smith's interpretations of Scripture as sometimes "blasphemous" (Tucker 1876, p. 18).

However, at some point, Smith reportedly withdrew from the Methodist probationary class in which he was enrolled, announcing that he believed that "all sectarianism was fallacious, and the churches on a false foundation" (Tucker 1876, p. 18). According to one recollection years later, Smith "arose and announced that his mission was to restore the true priesthood. He appointed a number of meetings, but no one seemed inclined to follow him as the leader of a new religion" (Mather 1880, p. 199). By some time during the intense revivals of 1824-1825, Smith was adamantly refusing to attend any organized church, according to his mother because he claimed, "I can take my Bible, and go into the woods, and learn more in two hours, than you can learn at meeting [sic] in two years, if you should go all the time" (Smith 1853, p. 90).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of...eph_Smith%2C_Jr.

[snipe123]

"Hopefully this will put an end to the whole adieu thing and show that it was used fairly commonly by contemporaries and was hardly an esoteric word. It (IMO) appears to have been just as much an “English” word as a “French” word during Joseph’s time in America. "

Yep...kinda like like the use of "Adios" is used in San Diego just as much as good bye...I agree, this issue really needs to be put to rest...it is a tired criticism of The Book of Mormon...Good job on the references by the way...!

[Doctor Steuss]

I think the "adieu" issue has been safely put to bed. I hope we hear back from the Akkadian expert as well.

The "sermons" thing is something I found on wikipedia. Not a great reference, but here it what it says:

Smith had some interest in the Methodist denomination (Roberts 1902, vol. 1, ch. 1, p. 3). Smith's associate, Oliver Cowdery, later wrote that Smith was highly influenced by the teachings of a Rev. George Lane, a presiding Methodist Elder and an administrator in the Palmyra era during the intense revivals of 1824 and 1825 (Cowdery 1834b, p. 13); Lane's influence is confirmed by Joseph's brother William (Smith 1883). It is not known whether or not Smith attended a meeting at which Lane spoke, but Lane visited the nearby town of Vienna (15 miles (24 km) from Palmyra) for a large Methodist conference in 1819, and was a leader over the Palmyra area from 1824 to 1825 (Porter 1969, p. 330). Smith himself reportedly spoke during some of the local Methodist meetings, and he was described as a "very passable exhorter" (Turner 1852, p. 214). However, one of Smith's young acquaintances considered Smith's interpretations of Scripture as sometimes "blasphemous" (Tucker 1876, p. 18).

However, at some point, Smith reportedly withdrew from the Methodist probationary class in which he was enrolled, announcing that he believed that "all sectarianism was fallacious, and the churches on a false foundation" (Tucker 1876, p. 18). According to one recollection years later, Smith "arose and announced that his mission was to restore the true priesthood. He appointed a number of meetings, but no one seemed inclined to follow him as the leader of a new religion" (Mather 1880, p. 199). By some time during the intense revivals of 1824-1825, Smith was adamantly refusing to attend any organized church, according to his mother because he claimed, "I can take my Bible, and go into the woods, and learn more in two hours, than you can learn at meeting [sic] in two years, if you should go all the time" (Smith 1853, p. 90).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of...eph_Smith%2C_Jr.

Groovy stuff. I wonder what the difference (within Methodism) was in that period between a regular meeting and a "camp meeting" (the Turner book refers to them as "camp meetings" on the page referenced)...

[prisonchaplain]

Camp meetings, like revival meetings, are intense daily services meant to bring about conversions, repentence, recommitment and increased dedication. Regular meetings would be meant for on-going education, encouragement and service.

[snipe123]

<div class='quotemain'>

We can agree that Smith picked a bad word since it has created a great deal of misunderstanding...

And yet (as far as I know... from my recent [and brief] research into this particular criticism [which I didn't even know was an actual criticism until yesterday]), it didn't cause this "great deal of misunderstanding" prior to James White's publication of Letters to a Mormon Elder. BTW, one of the greatest reviews I have ever read through RoBotBoM (now the FARMS Review) was done by Kerry Shirts (some may know him from his podcasts) and Russell McGregor (a frequent poster at MA&D; however he uses a moniker and prefers that he remain anonymous).

Here's a link to the review (it's long, but sooooo worth reading): Letters to an Anti-Mormon

But, back on topic. I have been unable to find any contemporary criticisms of this particular word usage. It seems to be a “fairly” recent home-grown anti-Mormon polemic developed by James White (who doesn’t think Mormons are Christian) followed by John Ankerberg and John Weldon, and eventually brandished by that ever-so-scholarly-and-honest “Christian,” Ed Decker.

Perhaps criticism is a strong word... I lement the use of the word since it has created a point on which to criticize Joseph Smith and the Bof M...albeit a childish and amateur criticism...I guess I should say, "who cares if they want to criticize this". I am sensitive to this issue, since I have heard it over and over and over since I was a missionary in Dallas 15 years ago...I will agree that it appears to be contemporary, and "Ed Decker-ish"...anyone who has attended an anti-mormon speech at their local Christian church, especially in the Bible belt where "Christian" ministers feel duty bound to innoculate their congregations against the "plague of Mormonism" has probably heard this "Adieu" argument and the "King James Nephite" argument...and "borrowings" from Shakepeare(that I just heard from a co-worker again on Friday! LOL), blah blah blah...I am impressed with your references and happy you took the time to look up the use of the word in that region and appears to back up what I was saying in my original post regarding a possible use of the term in that region...so I say, awesome job!

[Jason]

Perhaps criticism is a strong word... I lement the use of the word since it has created a point on which to criticize Joseph Smith and the Bof M...albeit a childish and amateur criticism...I guess I should say, "who cares if they want to criticize this". I am sensitive to this issue, since I have heard it over and over and over since I was a missionary in Dallas 15 years ago...I will agree that it appears to be contemporary, and "Ed Decker-ish"...anyone who has attended an anti-mormon speech at their local Christian church, especially in the Bible belt where "Christian" ministers feel duty bound to innoculate their congregations against the "plague of Mormonism" has probably heard this "Adieu" argument and the "King James Nephite" argument...and "borrowings" from Shakepeare(that I just heard from a co-worker again on Friday! LOL), blah blah blah...I am impressed with your references and happy you took the time to look up the use of the word in that region and appears to back up what I was saying in my original post regarding a possible use of the term in that region...so I say, awesome job!

Careful there. Just because one of the dozens of BoM problems has been brushed aside, does not vaporize all the other, more serious problems.

[Doctor Steuss]

Camp meetings, like revival meetings, are intense daily services meant to bring about conversions, repentence, recommitment and increased dedication. Regular meetings would be meant for on-going education, encouragement and service.

Do you know if during this time period (or currently) the camp meetings were reserved for Methodists or if they were a general "calling to Christ"?

-------

BTW,

Jason, thank you for that reference earlier (I didn't thank you for that one). I had never heard of Turner's little book, and I look forward to getting a decent copy to add to my library.

Today, I have been edified.

[prisonchaplain]

Do you know if during this time period (or currently) the camp meetings were reserved for Methodists or if they were a general "calling to Christ"?

Today campmeetings are for all. In fact, church members would be encouraged to "invite your unsaved friends and loved ones." The meetings serve a dual purpose--offering salvation to the unsaved, and a sense of refreshing, reinvigoration and urgency for the believers.

I do not imagine that time has changed this approach much.

[Old Tex]

Camp meetings, like revival meetings, are intense daily services meant to bring about conversions, repentence, recommitment and increased dedication. Regular meetings would be meant for on-going education, encouragement and service.

Also, during that time wagons were the main source of transportation. It may be an all day trip to get to these meetings, requiring the people to "camp" overnight. (thus the term "camp meeting"). One of my grandmothers (who was born in 1885 in Southeast Texas) used to tell me about going to them. They were also used as an opportunity to visit with other members of the family from the other side of the county. And for some they provided "entertainment". There really wasn't much else to do in the backwoods, and any cause for a public gathering was something to go to.

She took me to some outdoor "tent meetings" in the 1930s, where I remember some real hellfiire and brimstone sermons were preached. There was one preacher I remember who was all redfaced and screaming that if a person was not "saved" that the devil would come get them and sling them into a lake of fire where they would burn forever. One don't hear that much any more. At least I don't. I do hear about Heavenly Parents who are concerned for me, and that inspires me not to let them down. Quite a difference in motivation, I would say.

[darrel]

Imho the fact that the Book of Mormon is a Direct translation of ancient writings gives it high marks for accuracy. The bible while true as far as it is translated corectly, can be a stumbling block for some as it was assembled from selected historical writings by men chosen by Constantine of Rome in about 325 AD, to help establish the new state religion, Christianity.

[marymanard]

When joseph smith translated the Book of Mormon, he translated into his own langage and he used terms he was familiar with. he used words like steel to describe some sort of mixed metal even though steel hadn't yet been invented then. and he used a then common expression that fulfilled his translation needs.

If he had translated the book using terms that the nephites used or everything tutanka this or chakara that. we would be lost and so is is god's design that we understand his book JS used common language.

[annewandering]

Blessed be is a phrase used quite often in some circles nowadays. So if we found a book from long ago in tibet using that phrase would we assume it was fake? No doubt some would. It would be more probably that it was a common phrase in ancient times that was passed down to the tibetian writer same as it has been passed down to us..

I know you have probably moved past the ops original question but I think the 'praying in public' phrase was a common 'saying' to many long before the time of Jesus. Its not exactly a unique idea even though Jesus did say it.

The thing about looking for artifacts or oddities is that they can be explained to those who believe and never will be adequately explained to those who do not believe.

[Vort]

http://forums.bit-tech.net/picture.php?albumid=1472&pictureid=24568

[LeSellers]

Today campmeetings are for all. …

I do not imagine that time has changed this approach much.

I always loved the camp meeting scene in Huckleberry Finn.

It's in Chapter XX of Clemens's book. One wonders if all of the preachers who held them were wholly sincere. Keep in mind that Twain was not "making it up". He wrote fiction, but believable fiction, believable because true.

Lehi

Edited November 30, 2015 by LeSellers

[Guest]