Book Of Mormon Stumbling Block

[Adomini22]

You are nitpicking the faith and good standing of millions AND the word of God by the term "adieu"? Are you serious? That is so laughable it almost isnt deserving of a response ( but I do have so much free time....) I think the logical and intelligent answer you seek has already been given by more intelligent LDS members than myself. Yet reading your post, I wonder what it is that you are looking for. ADIEU

[a-train]

I can say that in reading the Book of Mormon I have gained tremendous insight and inspiration throughout my life. I have no doubt it is authentic. I cannot read a few words of it without the companionship of the Holy Ghost and the expansion of my heart, soul, and mind. I love it. I thank God I have it.

With great respect, I appreciate skepticism and suspicion in men when considering modern teachers of religion. Peter's warning in 2 Peter chapter 2 portrays well the abuse we endure in this world from the "false teachers" seeking to "make merchandise" of us. Notice that many will follow them because they will speak evil of the "way of truth". Indeed, all of us are surrounded by a war of words, "some crying, 'Lo here!' and others, 'Lo there!'."

So there is one thing I would ask anyone who is questioning the Book of Mormon, struggling with it, wondering about it, or even contesting it: "Have ye inquired of the LORD?"(1 Nephi 15:8) Did you realize that it is full of "great things" "which [are] hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord."(1 Nephi 15:3)

Remember this promise?: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"(Matt 7:7) Remember also that "if any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine".(John 7:17)

I pray that each of us will remember the counsel of our God and "ask in faith".

God Speed

-a-train

[Starchild]

Hi! Hope someone can help.

I am an inactive member and am trying to gain a testimony. So, I have taken up Hinkley's challenge to read the BoM and everything is going smoothly until I hit a speed bump and I find whatever small testimony I was gaining being whisked away in an instant - leaving a bad taste in my month. Here is an example:

Alma 38:13-14: "Do not pray as the Zoramites do, for ye have seen that they pray to heard of men, and to be praised for thier wisdom. Do not say: O God, I thank thee that we are better than our brethren..."

Hello?! Didn't Jesus say this exact thing to the Pharasees 100 year years later??? in Luke 18:11 (btw the footnotes direct you to Luke 18:13)? So, was Jesus quoting Alma? or was Alma quoted Jesus 100 years in the past?

It's these little moments of deja vous in the BoM that make me go hmmmm. And don't get me started on the book of Ether. Last time I read that book, I put away the Book of Mormon for months! So am I nervous about reading it again.

Is there a good reason why the BoM relies so heavily in its narrative on the Old/New Testament stories?

I truly want a testimony of the BoM. I have prayed, and am obviously reading and occassional get the warm feeling of the spirit like w/ Alma 32 or other doctrinal passages, but then it is torn to shreads over things like this.

Can anyone help me?

TIA - InactiveTx

Hello,

I think that when you are trying to gain a testimony, the adversary will draw attention to anything that can cause diversion. He can also get alot of help in cloudy, confusion that causes focus on the unimportant while drawing attention away from what you are seeking. Pray prior to reading the BOM. Pray after. Seek spiritual assistance understanding from spiritual sources, not here. While those of us who support you search for a testimony would offer support and help we can not offer enlightenment or true reassurance of your faith. Come here for good conversation, support from friends, a chance to socialize turn to the Spirit for what you are seeking. Your testimony will grow. But like any small growing thing it needs to be protected as well as fed to grow. I wish you blessings and revelations of Heavenly Father and confirmation of the Holy Ghost. All here are searching. Just in different directions. I really hope it stays respectfull of each persons beliefs. I would like to stay but if disrespectfullness against LDS beliefs start I will leave. I joined to find a place to share that, and I have no problem with others believes but not when they feel thier right to differ gives them the right to belittle mine. I too searched many religions before I settled on LDS and while I dont believe there is only one true religion I do believe it is the Fullest and most complete. No church/religion is perfect but I think the fruit of the church speaks for itsself. It is the only one who could settle my two main question. Why would God bother with man? Did he just walk by look down and say "Oh look at the cute little humans. .. I shall play with them?" No we are his literal children, that alone explaines his interaction and even more.. his patience with a rebellious race of people. Next questions. After death? I am going to spend my life being good to die and do what/???? Bow, and yell halleluah for eons to come? God is really so vain that he wants millions to spend eternity doing nothing but "worship him". That is all anyother religion could tell me would be my "reward" big deal. Only the LDS made sense of the eternal kingdom of Heavenly Fathers family. Im sure we will all be shocked and appalled to find when we get there that not every word of every book was literal and true , and not every teaching was to the letter. But guess what, we have been warned we are not suppose to have exactness, assurance and proof. Its all about faith , honey. And that comes by witness of the Spirit not internet tesitmonys for or against truth. Just offering my own opions not churh position, or teachings. We are all still working on our testimonies. When we stop they wither and fade. Believe me I know.

[Serg]

Im sure we will all be shocked and appalled to find when we get there that not every word of every book was literal and true , and not every teaching was to the letter. But guess what, we have been warned we are not suppose to have exactness, assurance and proof. Its all about faith , honey.

-Starchild

Very true.

[jgainer]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hi! Hope someone can help.

I am an inactive member and am trying to gain a testimony. So, I have taken up Hinkley's challenge to read the BoM and everything is going smoothly until I hit a speed bump and I find whatever small testimony I was gaining being whisked away in an instant - leaving a bad taste in my month. Here is an example:

Alma 38:13-14: "Do not pray as the Zoramites do, for ye have seen that they pray to heard of men, and to be praised for thier wisdom. Do not say: O God, I thank thee that we are better than our brethren..."

Hello?! Didn't Jesus say this exact thing to the Pharasees 100 year years later??? in Luke 18:11 (btw the footnotes direct you to Luke 18:13)? So, was Jesus quoting Alma? or was Alma quoted Jesus 100 years in the past?

It's these little moments of deja vous in the BoM that make me go hmmmm. And don't get me started on the book of Ether. Last time I read that book, I put away the Book of Mormon for months! So am I nervous about reading it again.

Is there a good reason why the BoM relies so heavily in its narrative on the Old/New Testament stories?

I truly want a testimony of the BoM. I have prayed, and am obviously reading and occassional get the warm feeling of the spirit like w/ Alma 32 or other doctrinal passages, but then it is torn to shreads over things like this.

Can anyone help me?

TIA - InactiveTx

Hello,

I think that when you are trying to gain a testimony, the adversary will draw attention to anything that can cause diversion. He can also get alot of help in cloudy, confusion that causes focus on the unimportant while drawing attention away from what you are seeking. Pray prior to reading the BOM. Pray after. Seek spiritual assistance understanding from spiritual sources, not here. While those of us who support you search for a testimony would offer support and help we can not offer enlightenment or true reassurance of your faith. Come here for good conversation, support from friends, a chance to socialize turn to the Spirit for what you are seeking. Your testimony will grow. But like any small growing thing it needs to be protected as well as fed to grow. I wish you blessings and revelations of Heavenly Father and confirmation of the Holy Ghost. All here are searching. Just in different directions. I really hope it stays respectfull of each persons beliefs. I would like to stay but if disrespectfullness against LDS beliefs start I will leave. I joined to find a place to share that, and I have no problem with others believes but not when they feel thier right to differ gives them the right to belittle mine. I too searched many religions before I settled on LDS and while I dont believe there is only one true religion I do believe it is the Fullest and most complete. No church/religion is perfect but I think the fruit of the church speaks for itsself. It is the only one who could settle my two main question. Why would God bother with man? Did he just walk by look down and say "Oh look at the cute little humans. .. I shall play with them?" No we are his literal children, that alone explaines his interaction and even more.. his patience with a rebellious race of people. Next questions. After death? I am going to spend my life being good to die and do what/???? Bow, and yell halleluah for eons to come? God is really so vain that he wants millions to spend eternity doing nothing but "worship him". That is all anyother religion could tell me would be my "reward" big deal. Only the LDS made sense of the eternal kingdom of Heavenly Fathers family. Im sure we will all be shocked and appalled to find when we get there that not every word of every book was literal and true , and not every teaching was to the letter. But guess what, we have been warned we are not suppose to have exactness, assurance and proof. Its all about faith , honey. And that comes by witness of the Spirit not internet tesitmonys for or against truth. Just offering my own opions not churh position, or teachings. We are all still working on our testimonies. When we stop they wither and fade. Believe me I know.

[jgainer]

Fisrt thing to remember...the BOM was preserved for our day and time. It was written and preserved by Prophets who were under divine inspiration, just as the Biblical authors were. It should be know surprise that what was a "truth" during Christ's ministry was also truth prior to his coming. It seems obvious that the Lord wouldl lead righteous men to speak gospel truths through revelation. Also remember that we read in all of the BOM the extensive knowledge of Christ that is not found in the Old Testament. Finally, I used to question such things, you know 'adieu" and perseaved church history problems, the supposed evils of Joseph Smith and all of the other volumes of rot that is available to usher you swiftly out of the church and into the safety of being "saved" with another churches doctrines or more appropriately by their Pastors doctrines or just away from God altogether. I finally took a hard look at myself and realized that as long as I wanted to question, Satan would gladly help me find things to question. I finally had to listen to the Spirit and place my trust in Heavenly Father and pray with real surrender, oh yeah, and also repent. It wasn't too long and the Spirit returned in great abundance and I began to be taught by the Spirit. That is the key, the Spirit. Not intelectual reasoning only. If you ever had a testimony or felt the Spirit, you will always be drawn to the church. The Lord will not let you go.

[Aphrodite]

It seems to me that if the people who are doubting the book of Mormons authenticity put as much effort into humbly studying its teachings as they are to disproving it they would have a testimony in about 5 minutes flat!

I'm really impressed with all the knowledge of the BoM tho. You have far more than me. Trouble with ppl in the church is they really do think too much! I have read the bom through and I have never ever considered any of these facts, timelines, was this invented then etc. I think ppl are focusing on the wrong thing here, then cross referencing and searching to 'disprove' it. You dont accidentally stumble across the sources that have been posted here, you go out and look for something to back up your claims. If you really wanted a testimony, then you wouldnt do this.

Inactivetx, I just want to say that I know where you are coming from although not with the BoM. I have had doubts about things in similar ways to you. However, I know more than anything else in this world that the BoM is true, and it was written for our day. My advice to you would be to empty your mind of all these questions and 'bumps'. Start afresh. Talk the Lord about it, tell him your concerns. Just read the Book with prayer and a real desire to gain a testimony. I would get into cross referencing and things for now. Just read the book of mormon and ask for a testiomony of it. Once you have established that I think you'll find most of your queries and questions will be answered within your own mind. Try fasting for a testimony of its truth. I find that when Im not doing too well spiritually, I seem to gain more questions and doubts. When I am on top of things, praying regularly etc, I see things more clearly and gain more experiences that strengthen my testimony.

I suppose most of my issues with the church have come from my own arrogance. 'I dont see why this..', or deciding something I dont like to be wrong. Who the heck are we to say? I often think to myself, to try and fully understand the gospel as the Lord knows it is like a 2 year old attempting to undertake a university exam-Its just not going to be succesful so there is no point in trying. I dont mean there is no point in trying to understand the gospel, I mean that we should stick with simplicity. Be humble. Listen to the Lord, and my hardest one of all but by far the most effective (grrr how annoying) is obedience. I'm a strong opinionated woman and I do not like being told what to do. However, doing my own thing only causes problems. Be obedient, do as the Lord says. Serve. Be humble, and read the Book of Mormon with an open, honest heart and much prayer to the Lord about your concerns. That scripture, 'The Lord works in mysterious ways' is something for all to bear in mind. He does things we dont always understand. They are his ways, and rather than disect them with our own pitiful knowledge of life and the eternities, we should just concentrate on living it. That will give you a testiomony. Just my thoughts, but I know that they have worked for me and I know this is what the Lord wants from me

[Shade]

Aphrodite - i like your attitude!!!

[Dale]

I believe the Book of Mormon translated was modeled after KJV snipets. The translation was filtered via Joseph Smith's 19th century knowledge which included that of KJV snippets. All that's important to me these days is that it be some ancient not that it has no 19th century things in it. Although I believe some of the new Testament phrases can pre-date the 19th century in some more ancient form. Like LDS scholar Blake Ostler I hold that the translation included 19th century explanation, and interpretation.

If you want to explore the case for an ancient Book of Mormon you can can find books advocating that. I suggest Echoes And Evidences of The Book of Mormon, and Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited. If I felt the Book of Mormon had no evidence for it I would side with the critics shouting plagiarism. I have been exposed to a lot of rebuttal to Book of Mormon evidences, and I feel the evidence survives. One book I read that had two anti-FARMS essays was The New Mormon Challenge by Zondervan. FARMS fired off response essays and you can find them in it's online FARMS Review of Books. FAIR has responded to this book in depth. http://www.fairlds.org

I have seen LDS scholar John Tvedtnes gather a list of Bible manuscript variations. These changes match the best Book of Mormon changes critic's point to.

In the past my mind was spinning with all the various arguments for and against the book I was reading. I honestly gave up for a time on my testimony of the book I achieved through applying Moroni 10:3-5 promise. It took me a long time to resolve the concerns I had before I trusted in my testimony again. I still have questions about the book, but I have enough like for the book I still use it as scripture. No evidence forces one to believe and I know critics, and believers in the book not persuaded by evidences for the book.

One thing that helps some believers in the book is to adopt a non-historical view of the book. They see truth in the stories, ideas in the book but doubt it's historicity. The biggest objection I see to that idea is Joseph Smith lied then. But I myself sometimes doubt if all Bible stories present real events, but I use it anyway. To me if that approach to the book helps you to continue use of the book I say try it. LDS radio show host Van Hale takes this approach. LDS scholar Blake Ostler takes a partial 19th century approach to the book. He mentioned in an article once he knew of several active Temple going LDS who think like Van Hale does.

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't care how the Book of Mormon was translated.

I don't care if it has smatterings of Spanish, Italian, French, Hebrew, Arabic, German, African or Swahili words in it.

I don't care if someone else can't get past grammar and diction.

I care only that the Book of Mormon has drawn me closer to Christ than the Bible alone could.

[Princess3dward]

I can not believe this thread is still going.

Even I am totally fine with the "deja vu's".

Like, how many ways can you say, "Don't touch the stove. It is hot", or "Don't drink bleach".

Sometimes things can only be said one way.

[Aphrodite]

Aphrodite - i like your attitude!!!

Thank You Shade

[sixpacktr]

It all gets back to having faith. Period. We can show evidence upon evidence that it is true, and you can argue back that it doesn't convince youl. I have read Bro Nibley's books from his classes and the depth and breadth of the BOM is unbelievable, certainly more than any "hick from the upper NY sticks" could ever imagine. It stands the tests of time, offers a spirit that is unbelievably reassuring and calming.

But if you don't want to believe, no matter what we tell you, you won't believe it. That is what faith is all about. Remember the Savior's parable about Lazarus and the rich man. When the rich man asked the Lord to send an angel to warn his brothers so that they wouldn't suffer a similar fate as he did, the Lord told him that if they wouldn't accept Moses and the prophets an angel wasn't going to matter a hill of beans. It is the same for you. You are asking for a certain sign, and although I see them abundantly, they are signs that strengthen my faith because I already believe. And more reading makes me believe more.

I agree that the similarities are reassuring. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He has told his children from the time of Adam to obey his commandments, love one another, believe in Christ and his atonement and resurrection, and you will have a happy life. The world will ridicule you for your beliefs, and life will throw its share of crud your way, but you will be at peace and happy. The BOM simply testifies again that Jesus is the Christ and that we need to obey his commandments and take upon us his name. So does the OT and so does the NT and so does the Pearl of GP and the D&C.

Those that look to enlighten us poor brainwashed Mormons have nothing better to do. The BOM is true. I know it. And that can't be taken from me. Now it is up to you to determine if you believe it based simply upon the witness you get from the Holy Ghost that it is true. Nothing else really matters other than that witness.

[Guest Yediyd]

I don't care how the Book of Mormon was translated.

I don't care if it has smatterings of Spanish, Italian, French, Hebrew, Arabic, German, African or Swahili words in it.

I don't care if someone else can't get past grammar and diction.

I care only that the Book of Mormon has drawn me closer to Christ than the Bible alone could.

I have spent the better part of my day in this one forum...reading the resonses, checking out the links...and I have GOT to say...this is BY FAR the BEST answaer I have read today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you,ck for putting my thoughts into words!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[LukeAir2006]

:)

[a-train]

You know,

Something to consider: The book of Alma wasnt written 100 years B.C. It wasn't even written 100 years A.D. It was written around 400 A.D. by a man with a library of records that covered many centuries and included the whole sermon on the mount and many other things about Christ that we may not have to this day.

He even said: 'And if ye had all the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.' (3 Nephi 28:33) Certainly Mormon had a tremendous amount of writing on the subject of Christ. Moreover, we know that he and his son Moroni knew what was contained in the records that would eventually be given to us in our day in the Bible.

Furthermore, the parable the LORD gave in Luke 18 could have well been from his knowledge of those same things not only among the ancient Americans, but among others, including they who even to this day do pray in that same manner as did the Zoramites.

-a-train

[vinny15]

Im still waiting for someone to adaquetly explain how the Nephites learn to say "Adieu", when even the French language didn't exist at the time?

And don't bother with Jeff Lindsay's lame argument that the word was the best match for the "translation". English words were used for the whole BoM, and "Good bye" would have been a suitable word. Or, if Smith wanted to be literal, why not say "God be with you"?

Lindsay's objections to the use of French words in the Bible don't mean squat. We all know that those weren't god-inspired translations using magic spec's or a nifty rock in a hat.

If anyone's got a better answer, I'd love to hear it.

jason do you forget that the book wasnt originally written in english. It depends on the language of the translator a lot.

Joseph used adieu a lot maybe. Or maybe it really was the best translation seeing as english speakers use the word its just as much english as it is french.

Why do you have the worst arguments. It makes perfect sense.

For this he needed a more cut through word. Could you imagine the BoM ending " Well Im about to dies so Good bye yall"

It needs some atmosphere.

[Dr T]

Doesn't do it for me either Vinny.

[Guest Yediyd]

Doesn't do it for me either Vinny.

Works for me, the man translated into his own language, remember that English is a conglomeration of many languages and during JS's time there were many settlers...Stands to reason that he would know and use that word...petty arguement, it's like arguing if Adam had a belly button or not...WHO CARES????

[Dr T]

But the issue of it being in Egyptian hieroglyphics and that they were Gods words and not Joseph's then in this case, "It was his rendering" isn't consistent with what I've heard these last year few years.

[Guest Yediyd]

But the issue of it being in Egyptian hieroglyphics and that they were Gods words and not Joseph's then in this case, "It was his rendering" isn't consistent with what I've heard these last year few years.

Huh? can you explain what you mean?

[Dr T]

Maybe some other time Yed.

[Guest Yediyd]

Maybe some other time Yed.

OK

[vinny15]

Doesn't do it for me either Vinny.

How does it not work. We use adieu as a formal way of saying good-bye for a while. The word used in the Gold plates couldve been translated many ways lets look.

- Goodbye for now.

- I will see you soon.

- See ya

- Ta ta for now.

- ttyl (jk lol)

- adieu

What looks and sounds the best. Goodness you are all so hard to deal with here.

I thought this was a dead subject. You all stick with the old stuff and see the truth right i n front of you but you deny it.

It really really really makes me sad.

[Dr T]

You keep saying "old stuff." Maybe it's so old because it continues to be an issue. 2 + 2 has been 4 for a LONG time. It still holds. :)