and what about Lilith?

[ConnieM]

Do you know the story of Lilith and what do you personally think about it?

When first introduced to it I did not really took much interest in it but lately my personal studies crossed this topic again and I found out that Lilith is not only an old jewish tradition and once referred to in the Bible, Lilith is also mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls and in various sources in literature. This is interesting though.

I don't know if it is true that there was Lilith before there was Eve. But I'd like to hear your opinions about it.

Thank you.

[Dravin]

Nope.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Dravin

[Connie]

It's mythology.

[Moksha]

Could be that both Lilith and Lucy get short shrift around these parts.

Who is Lucy???

Lillith yes ... interesting, but looks like we dont have much on her. Anyway she dont change what happened with Eva and Adam... but stil interesting cant wait to know all the answers...

Edited January 9, 2010 by Maya

[RipplecutBuddha]

As useful as the Dead Sea Scrolls have been to world religion, they do demonstrate that mythology can creep into any religious system. Even current LDS doctrines suffer from mythological addition.

Lilith may have been mentioned in the scrolls, but there has been no indication from any of the prophets that she was a real person that came before Eve.

This could mean two things;

1. It isn't true doctrine

2. It isn't important to our salvation whether she really lived or not

since I don't know everything (or much of anything, depending on whom you speak with) I'm content to let both options stay on the table.

The above can be rendered more succinct by the following statement; I don't know, and I really don't care right now.

thank you for your patience.

[pam]

The only Lilith I know about was on the tv show Cheers.

[Melissa569]

I don't know how I feel about it. According to legend, god banished Lilith (Adam's supposed first wife) because she "demanded equality"... She then became the spirit that drifts in and out of baby's rooms, causing crib death.

But in other religions, I find that there wasn't really an equality issue until AFTER Eve was the first to fall to temptation with the fruit... Its like all the equality issues were more a result of her being the first to break the rules. And then not just taking a punishment by herself, but also spreading it to her fellow human (Adam).

I know this really has nothing to do with any of it, but that leads me to wonder if Eve loved Adam at all... Because when I love someone, and I think I might be taking a risk, I prefer to face it alone, and spare/protect the person I love, at least until I know weather or not everything will turn out ok. Untill then, I will tell the one I love to keep their distance, and NOT copy my actions, until the coast is clear. I don't drag my loved ones down with me, that's just low...

I really think that if Adam had been the first, and given it to Eve, he probably would have been the focus of punishment.

That's just the way it works in life-- man or woman, nobody seems to care that technically ALL parties had an equal hand. Its always the ring leader who catches the most heat when they get caught.

It seems that before that happened, Adam and Eve were both just two happy children of god, roaming the garden freely. I never saw any problems with equality before the fruit episode.

So... No, I guess I don't believe in Lilith. It makes more sense that someone's rank gets busted down, AFTER they mess up. Not before.

But your opinion also depends what religion you are. In several other religions (Islam being one fo them), Adam and Eve both took and ate the fruit at the same time. There was no one person who was to blame for all of it. Now, while that does seem like a more fair, loving and romantic idea... It also leaves me to wonder about that version of the story's validity. If that was how it really happened, then how did these other equality-based religions also end up viewing women as subservient to men...?

In my opinion, again, it was a result of Eve falling to temptation first. That's why I just tend to believe the Christian version the most; it seems to make the most sense throughout human history.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Melissa569

[john doe]

The only Lilith I know about was on the tv show Cheers.

She was very good at emasculating Frasier. Hmmmmmm, maybe there is a little truth to the myth.

[pam]

Could be that both Lilith and Lucy get short shrift around these parts.

Who is Lucy???

Lillith yes ... interesting, but looks like we dont have much on her. Anyway she dont change what happened with Eva and Adam... but stil interesting cant wait to know all the answers...

Maya did you mean to quote Moksha..because right now it seems you edited his post to add your own thoughts. :)

[need4peace]

I know this really has nothing to do with any of it, but that leads me to wonder if Eve loved Adam at all...

I really think that if Adam had been the first, and given it to Eve, he probably would have been the focus of punishment.

In my opinion, again, it was a result of Eve falling to temptation first. That's why I just tend to believe the Christian version the most; it seems to make the most sense throughout human history.

Hi Melissa

I am like you I don't know anything about who Lilth is in fact I have never heard of her and I don't really care to know.

I actually care to know about Eve and am so glad I have learnt what I have since becoming a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints only 11 years ago.

Before then the "Original Sin" bit got to me throughout my life and I had difficulty with being told I was born sinful and treated bad for being a woman because of Eve. The whole hell and damnation that I had thrust upon me and the mean horrible 'thing' that God was made out to be only instilled fear in me at a young age.

But now I relax in the knowledge and truth of why Adam fell so that we might have joy and that I am responsible for my OWN transgressions and not those of others. The best of all is I learnt that God IS my Heavenly Father who loves me and He genuinely wants me to be happy. It was a relief to learn that He is not a 'thing' that is mean and nasty but that He lives and is ever loving and I can turn to Him and not have FEAR of Him but LOVE Him.

In fact even in the last day or so I have learnt so much about Eve just by reading a wonderful article titled "The Wisom and Intelligence of Eve" from Meridian Magazine. (Link below) It is fantastic.

I invite you to read it as it may help you with the Eve/sin issue.

The article certainly helped me gain a better understanding and my testimony of Eve grew in the knowledge that she is the Mother of All Living.

I admire the fact that Adam and Eve loved God so much that they would follow His commandment to multiply and replenish the earth and by staying in the garden they couldn't do so. They also proved that they loved each other that they would die for each other as was the case in leaving the garden.

They partook of the fruit so that WE could live on earth too and gain our mortal bodies just like they did and have children too. I am so grateful that Eve did partake and that Adam saw the significance of her actions.

Way to go EVE (& Adam too)

Here are a couple of quotes from the article -

In the Christian world today, Eve’s name is associated with sin.....

Nearly every culture and intellectual tradition, from Catholic original sin to the Greek tale of Pandora’s box, has a foundational story that in effect says, “The first woman ruined everything.” This paradigm is so ubiquitous and omnipresent in how institutions and societies function today, that Latter-day Saints need a thorough education on interpreting and explaining the Eve story, so they will be ready to defend her true name.

Meridian Magazine :: Articles : The Wisdom and Intelligence of Eve

[Moksha]

Maya did you mean to quote Moksha..because right now it seems you edited his post to add your own thoughts. :)

I noticed that too.

Maya has a good question in asking about Lucy. There are so many possibilities to which I may have been referring:

1. Lucy Lawless

2. Lucy in Disguise

3. Lucille Ball

4. Lucy in the Sky

5. Lucy the Australopithecus from Ethiopia

6. Lucy the Australopithecus in Disguise

7. Lawless Lucy the Australopithecus

Anyway, she came some time before Adam. Besides, Ricky was more her type.

[Elphaba]

7. Lawless Lucy the Australopithecus.

I like that one. A lot!

Elph

[Elgama]

there are Lilith type legends all around the world there are similarities to a legend in Mexico, and one in Wales about Blodeuwedd.

My own theory with no basis in anything but is it unreasonable to assume Satan/Lucifer has a number 1 lady>?

[ConnieM]

there are Lilith type legends all around the world there are similarities to a legend in Mexico, and one in Wales about Blodeuwedd.

That is why I started to think of it differently. There are so many stories and she is mentioned in different ancient texts... it just got me thinking...

My own theory with no basis in anything but is it unreasonable to assume Satan/Lucifer has a number 1 lady>?

Oooh, interesting. :)

[Elgama]

T

Oooh, interesting. :)

The way I read many of the legends is that she seems to be spirit rather than physical in form except when she inhabits the form of something else

[ADoyle90815]

I've heard of Lilith being a demon of some kind, and another myth is that she is married to Satan.

[Melissa569]

Well, no offense to Lucifer/Satan... Wait, what am I saying? I don't care if I offend him! lol. Anyway, I don't think he would be too interested in having any wives. Or even a number one. Concubines, maybe. Both male and female, I'm sure he's not picky.

But favorites would suggest that he's capable of valuing someone, and he's not-- other than himself.

[talisyn]

Lilith is a cautionary tale ancient Hebrew parents would tell their rebellious daughters, especially when talking about marriage and duty. Kind've like not swimming right after eating.

Off topic a bit, I first heard about Lilith in the 4th grade when flipping through those really cool encyclopedia Britannica books. I always thought the quest for more knowledge comes through randomness than any other reason. What will kids learn about when every book is on a Kindle-type device and no one has books lying around the house? Where will the spark of creativity come from?

[Moksha]

My own theory with no basis in anything but is it unreasonable to assume Satan/Lucifer has a number 1 lady>?

Perhaps he even has a marriage requirement.

[Elgama]

Well, no offense to Lucifer/Satan... Wait, what am I saying? I don't care if I offend him! lol. Anyway, I don't think he would be too interested in having any wives. Or even a number one. Concubines, maybe. Both male and female, I'm sure he's not picky.

But favorites would suggest that he's capable of valuing someone, and he's not-- other than himself.

he wasn't always fallen, and it may explain why in all the legends she seems so lost. They are often heart breaking. The Welsh Legend involves 2 men fighting over her, she was made of flowers, then turned into an owl. The Owl Service by Alan Garner is an interesting read

[ConnieM]

Thank you for your comments...

I think if it was important to our understanding of the gospel to know more about her, it would have been given to us to k now more. Yes, it might just be a legend or a myth. I found it interesting to hear a rumour that she used to be the first wife of Adam.

[pam]

I still don't understand why rumors or legends or myths are important to our understanding of the gospel. I've never heard of her before this thread..so does that mean my salvation is in jeopardy because of this? The Church doesn't teach about her so again..I just don't get the importance of knowing about her is a requisite of my understanding of the gospel

[Tarnished]

I stumbled across the Lilith myth a few years ago and was surprised by it because I had never heard before that Adam had another wife. This past Sunday I actually brought it up to my husband and asked him what he knew about it as he has done some study on old documents such as the dead sea scrolls and such. Here is what he had to say about it (remember I don't have any documentation on this as this was from a discussion with my husband).

"The story of Lilith came an apocrypha text and claims that Lilith was Adam's first wife but that she lost the right to be his wife after she refused to be on the bottom during sex and demanded equality, after she lost this right Eve was introduced to the scene. However, this story also said that Adam was sleeping around with the animals as well, so I don't think that we can count it as an inspired text. Much like the Song of Solomon it is a text that is obviously uninspired but because it is an ancient text it is still attributed to the Bible."

This explains a lot to me, we find all sorts of mythology all over the place, and when it comes to the more risque mythology we find that there is no shortage of that. Personally I think the myth was written by some person who used a story they had heard of before, (the story of Adam and the creation) and created something very much uninspired from it. I think over the years it probably changed from a risque myth into a type of cautionary tale used to show what happened to women who disobeyed their husbands.

[Moksha]

I still don't understand why rumors or legends or myths are important to our understanding of the gospel. I've never heard of her before this thread..so does that mean my salvation is in jeopardy because of this? The Church doesn't teach about her so again..I just don't get the importance of knowing about her is a requisite of my understanding of the gospel

Certainly your salvation is not in jeopardy, but isn't it fun to learn about past religious thought? I am a fan of Joseph Campbell and have been since seeing his Transformation of Myth through Time series. He started my appreciation for such information.

From Ceci Adams column The Straight Dope regarding Lilith: The Straight Dope: What's the story on Lilith, Adam's "first wife"?

[sandyturley1954]

Hi to all interested in Lilith,

If you really open you mind, and then go to Genesis Chapt 1 verse 27. In the Mormon Bible, King James.So God created man in his own image, in his image He created He him, and male and female He created THEM. (Lilith) Now she isn't named here, but the is another chapter in the Bible, her name is mentioned. I have to look for it. But you can google her name, and you might find it.

This is the story of Lilith:

As stated God created man and woman in His own Image. And God commanded Adam and Lilith to multiply. So, Adam wanted to be on top, and Lilith was to be on the4 bottom during relations. Well, she didn't want to be on the bottom, and this made Adam mad. (She was the first woman's libber). Plus Adam wanted to have sex several times a day, but she didn't, she wanted to explore their surroundings. Well, Adam kept telling her what to do, and she got ticked. It happened to be, that God had a special name, that was only to be used by the Angels, but evidently she knew the name, so she stood at the top of the mountain, trying to get as close to heaven as possible, and opened her mouth, and said the word, and like a flash she was gone, whisked away, so fast, that no one could have seen it.

Now once she was in heaven, God punished her, because he didn't want to play the game like Adam and God wanted to. So she was made to bare thousands of children every day, and they would all die. It is said that when a man and woman get together, before marriage and have a baby, that baby will be born in a still birth, or die soon after birth. There is much more to the story, please Google it, to find out more info. I don't want to say anything that isn't written, by someone more knowledgeable. There are some Bibles that totally omit these verses.

Just for some back ground... I am a Mennonite.