Did Adam and Eve knew of the Plan in the Garden?

[Hemidakota]

[PART-1]

Instead of adding more postings to the previous evolution thread, I pointed out another twist that past and present brethren of the church seldom speak about, concerning our founding earthly parents knew of the designs and plan of GOD while in the Garden of Eden.

Let me make add some further references of this point that may add clarity and then we can proceed. Using Alonzo L. Gaskill, 'The Savior and The Serpent', Salt Lake City 2005, explore this reasoning and done a superb job with multi references here.

What Did Adam and Eve Know of Their Purpose While in Eden?

A simple review of what the restored gospel tells us about Adam and Eve's experiences in Eden should be sufficient to establish that they knew why they were placed in the Garden, and they were not ignorant of the plan, nor of the need for a fall.

We are informed that our first parents walked and talked with God while they dwelt in Eden (see Genesis 3:8–10). President Brigham Young stated that "Adam was as conversant with his Father who placed him upon this earth as we are conversant with our earthly parents."29 The Father taught them many things during their stay in the Garden—a stay which may have encompassed months or possibly even years.30 Are we to believe that in all their time in Eden, and in all of their communications with God and Christ, the reason for their placement in Eden was never mentioned by the Father, nor did Adam and Eve ever query as to why they were there? Such goes against reason.31 Indeed, the cursory account of God's command to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (see Genesis 2:17; Moses 3:17) is evidence that the discussion of Adam and Eve's purpose in Eden did arise on at least one occasion.

As to what they were told, one author has written:

"God the Father walked and talked with His beloved children in the Garden of Eden. Because they were the . . . only ones who could bring to pass mortal life so that His own promises to all His children can be fulfilled, we can feel confident that God did not visit them to speak trifling matters. Each meeting was surely a time of important instruction and learning."32

Similarly, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland informs us, "They had full knowledge of the plan of salvation" during their stay in Eden.33

Alma says, "God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption" (Alma 12:32; emphasis mine; see also Moses 7:32). Owing to the fact that God's laws do not change, we must assume that this same principle was in effect in Eden. Indeed, the Lord stated that he gave Adam and Eve their knowledge in the day he created them (Moses 7:32). That being the case, clearly Adam and Eve would have known their purpose in Eden. Indeed, if they had not known their purpose in Eden, they would not have been capable of exercising agency, for, as Elder Bruce R. McConkie has noted, knowledge is a prerequisite to the exercising of agency.34

We know from modern revelation that Adam and Eve entered into covenants with God while they were in the Garden.35 At the very least, they participated in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage—being sealed for time and all eternity by God the Father, Himself. It is quite likely that they also received at least part of their endowments in Eden.36 Covenants, of course, can be entered into only by those spiritually and intellectually capable of understanding the promises they are making. Otherwise, they could not be held responsible for the promises and commitments they have made.37 As President Boyd K. Packer has noted:

"Moral law assumes accountability; no accountability, no penalties! Moral law will self-destruct if enforced against those not accountable. It is not moral to do so."38

Thus, the fact that Adam and Eve did make covenants in Eden prior to their Fall indicates that they were intellectually and spiritually mature and capable of being held accountable for their actions.39 Indeed, if our first parents were "as little children" in their intellect or level of spirituality, how could they have been held accountable by God when they partook of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil? Such would be contrary to the laws of God and the plan of salvation.40 As President Packer noted, it wouldn't be moral. We are never accountable for what we do not know or cannot understand.

Elder Gerald N. Lund of the Seventy once noted that "Freedom (agency) + Knowledge = Accountability."41 It is not enough to be free. One must also be capable of making informed decisions.42 It is for this reason that children under the age of eight are not accountable nor expected to repent in order to gain forgiveness when they do things contrary to God's laws.43 Because of their intellectual, experiential, and spiritual level of understanding, they are covered by the Atonement of Christ (see Mosiah 3:16). Indeed, they are "alive in [Christ] because of his mercy" (Moroni 8:19).

The ordinary explanation of the phrase "good and evil" in the literal sense assumes that God would . . . withhold from man the ability to discern between what is morally right and wrong—a view which contradicts the spirit of Scripture. Moreover, Adam would not have been made "in the image of God" if he did not from the first possess the faculty of distinguishing between good and evil. And if he lacked such faculty, his obedience or disobedience to any command whatsoever could have no moral significance.44

Thus, God would have to have made Adam and Eve aware of their purpose in Eden. They would have necessarily been intellectually capable of understanding such if God were to hold them accountable—which He did when He removed them from Eden because of their decision to eat that which had been "forbidden."

Because of the metaphorical aspects of the story of the Fall, some have assumed that Adam and Eve had a veil placed over their minds when they were first placed in Eden—a veil akin to that which you and I currently labor under. However, this does not appear to be the case. In the Lectures on Faith, traditionally attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, we are informed that Adam was "lord or governor of all things on earth, and at the same time enjoying communion and intercourse with his Maker, without a vail [sic] to separate between."45 Likewise, Elder Orson Pratt taught that, while in Eden, there was no veil over Adam and Eve.46 In an 1842 Times and Seasons editorial we are told that, while in Eden, our first parents "could converse with God face to face as we converse with our friends; [with] no intervening veil."47 Elder Parley P. Pratt,48 President John Taylor,49 and President Joseph Fielding Smith50 each stated that in Eden there was no "dimming veil between" Adam and God.

On several occasions Elder Milton R. Hunter taught that it was after Adam and Eve's Fall that the veil was placed upon them, thus wiping out their memory of the premortal life and ending their direct access to the presence of God the Father.51 Elder B. H. Roberts taught that "with the fall of Adam there seems to have come a forgetfulness of the plan of salvation."52 Many commentators recognize that the notion that Adam and Eve labored under a veil in Eden is illogical.53 And if there indeed was no veil between them and their God, then how could they have been ignorant as to why they had been sent to the Garden?54

President Joseph Fielding Smith once remarked that Adam and Eve's intelligence while they were in Eden was greater than that had by any human today. They were intellectually as adults, having great reasoning powers.55 Likewise, anciently it was believed that, prior to his fall, Adam had prophetic gifts and understanding. The early Church did not perceive father Adam as the equivalent of a child in either his pre-fall intellectual or spiritual capacities.56 Rather, he was perceived as having wisdom and knowledge beyond that of the serpent (or Satan).57 Elder Dallin H. Oaks also noted that "our first parents understood the necessity of the Fall."58 Elder John A. Widtsoe wrote: "The gospel had been taught them during their sojourn in the Garden of Eden. They could not have been left in complete ignorance of the purpose of their creation."59 One early Christian source states: "Be not deceived. Our father [Adam] was ignorant of nothing."60 Indeed, Judaism holds that prior to the Fall "God revealed [to Adam] the whole history of mankind. . . . The tale of their years, the number of their days, the reckoning of their hours, and the measure of their steps, all were made known unto him."61

The only knowledge Adam and Eve appear to have been void of during their stay in the Garden was experiential knowledge.62 Certain things, such as spiritual death being the repercussion for partaking of the "forbidden" fruit, could be grasped intellectually—but would only fully be comprehended once experienced. Alma suggests that prior to the Atonement, Christ was in a similar situation regarding sin. He stated:

"Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me" (Alma 7:13).

Of this verse Hugh Nibley once noted that, although the Spirit could have shown Christ what being a sinner would be like, Jesus needed to experience this firsthand. He must "go through it himself."63 Elder Neal A. Maxwell added, "Jesus knew cognitively what He must do, but not experientially."64 The Atonement provided Christ with this experiential knowledge. And so it was with Adam and Eve. In order to gain their eternal exaltation, they needed experiential knowledge as well as intellectual knowledge. The Fall would be the means of gaining that.65

It is by contrasts that distinctions can best be made. White is whiter when placed next to black. Bitter is more clearly bitter when contrasted with sweet. To learn adequately the difference between good and evil or between God and Satan, mankind must have the full experience of life in a challenging world, a world of comparison and contrasts. Without this opposition of forces . . . the creation would have been "a thing of naught."66

If Adam and Eve were ignorant of their purpose while they were in Eden—if they were intellectually and spiritually as little children—then it would go against the nature of God to have held them accountable for partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The Restoration assures us that divine law protects from accountability those who are intellectually "as children" and those who do not know the law (see Moroni 8:22; 2 Nephi 9:25). Adam and Eve did understand why they were in Eden and what God wanted them to do.

What Were Adam and Eve's Instructions in Eden?

As we have noted, too often it is assumed that in Eden God gave Adam and Eve two contradictory commandments (meaning, two commandments that were mutually exclusive). It is common in discussions about the Fall to hear commentators suggest that Adam and Eve had to break the one command in order to keep the other. However, the Restoration of the gospel makes it quite clear that God does not—indeed, cannot—contradict Himself. There is not a single example in scripture, outside of the story of the Fall, which supports the notion that God ever gives us commandments which require the breaking of other commandments in order for us to be obedient to the first.

Some would suggest that God's command to Abraham or Nephi (to slay a human being) was a "contradictory command." Those who take this position often cite these words by the Prophet Joseph:

"God said, 'Thou shalt not kill;' at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire."67

Although these words relate well to the circumstance in which Abraham and Nephi found themselves, they do not apply to the situation in which we find Adam and Eve. Note that, unlike Adam and Eve, both Nephi and Abraham had the ability to do what God commanded them. They were simply given a new commandment that overrode a previous command. Neither father Abraham nor the prophet Nephi were being commanded to keep two mutually exclusive commandments, where the keeping of one required the breaking of the other.

Adam and Eve, on the other hand, were not being given a new command as a replacement of a previous command. Instead, they were given two simultaneous commands that could not both be kept. For God to command Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and also command them to multiply and replenish the earth (which they could do only if they partook of the "forbidden" fruit), is to place them in a logical paradox in which they cannot possibly be obedient. That is contrary to the nature of God (1 Nephi 3:7).

Additionally, for God to then administer repercussions (akin to penalties) for their disobedience to one law—when He Himself had required that they break that law so as to fulfill another law—runs entirely counter to God's nature, to the eternal principle of agency, and to the entire plan of salvation. God simply would not do this—to Adam and Eve or to you and me. To do so would be to act unmercifully, unjustly, and unrighteously.

Of course it must be remembered that nowhere in scripture do we have a full account of exactly what took place in the Garden surrounding the giving of the command not to partake of the "forbidden" fruit.68 Something is clearly missing in each of the authorized accounts of the Fall. Something additional must have happened that is unclear in the story of the Fall but revealed through modern prophets.

On several occasions, President Joseph Fielding Smith taught:

"The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it you will die."69

One LDS scholar similarly taught:

What, therefore, did God really say to them in the garden? I suggest that He might have said something like the following:

"If you want to stay in the Garden of Eden with no cares and no possibility of growth, you should not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, if you desire to grow and receive all that I have in store for you, you will have to leave the garden. If you eat of the tree, you will be cast out of the garden into the earth and into mortality, and you will die both temporally and spiritually, but you will open the door for yourselves and for all humanity to receive eternal life like I have. The choice is yours." In other words, God gave them information."70

Thus, according to President Smith (and many others71), God was quite clear with Adam and Eve that they had a choice—and that choice was not which of the two contradictory commandments they would keep. On the contrary, the two options given them were as follows: If they wanted to stay in Eden, then the fruit of knowledge of good and evil was forbidden. However, if they wanted to leave, they would have to partake of that fruit. The first couple would have been quite clear on what their options were and what the repercussions of either choice would be. Unlike the common theory of "higher" and "lesser" commandments72 or "contradictory commandments," President Smith's view is in harmony with the plan and the nature of God.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

PART-II [final]

Footnote References;

29. Young, in Journal of Discourses, 9:149. See also Smith (1993), 5:123; Smith (1998), 1:103; Lectures on Faith, 2:18; Pratt, in Journal of Discourses, 7:257.

30. It is conjectural, but a number of extra-canonical texts suggest that Adam and Eve were in Eden for an extended period of time. See, for example, "2 Enoch" in Charlesworth (1983–1985), 1:154; Talmudic tractate Sanhedrin 38b. See also Smith (1949), 67; Reynolds and Sjodahl (1955–1961), 6:86–87.

31. Campbell (2003), 67–68. "Adam and Eve agreed to go to the Garden on an assignment that was known to them and to us before the world was created. . . . As God walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden, they learned that to fulfill this assignment they would have to transgress (go across) the boundary of the place known to them as the Garden of Eden into a mortal state. Blood would have to flow in their veins to accomplish this." Campbell (2003), 112–13.

32. Campbell (2003), 64–65.

33. Holland (1997), 202–3.

34. See B. McConkie (1979), 26, s.v. "Agency."

35. Facsimile 2, Figure 3 in the book of Abraham speaks of "the grand Key-words of the Holy Priesthood, as revealed to Adam in the Garden of Eden." This clearly implies that Adam and Eve had significant knowledge and accountability in Eden, and apparently had some portion of the temple rites prior to their Fall. See also Kimball, in Journal of Discourses, 8:330; 9:129–30, 135; Duke (1992), 2:858.

36. See Facsimile 2, Figure 3; McConkie (1989), 80. Reason would have it that, if such were the case, they likely could also have been baptized, confirmed, and Adam would have been ordained—all preparatory to receiving their endowment and sealing. Although Moses 6:64 might be read as implying that Adam's baptism took place after his fall, there is insufficient information to dogmatically draw this conclusion. First of all, it is uncertain if Enoch is reciting these events in chronological order. Second, it is not clear that Adam received the ordinances in the order in which they are traditionally received today. Finally, we do not know if the principle of rebaptism was in place in Adam's day (i.e., is there any chance that Adam was baptized in Eden, then baptized again once he left the garden?). Thus one must reserve judgment on the timing of the receipt of any of Adam's ordinances, other than his endowment and sealing—both of which appear to have taken place in Eden.

37. See Packer (1990), 13–14. One non-LDS scholar noted that prior to the Fall Adam and Eve are treated as though they are mature and capable of making moral choices or decisions. See Kidner (1967), 63. See also Genesis 2:16–17, which implies this.

38. Packer (1990), 6. President Packer has also written: "There was too much at issue to introduce man into mortality by force. That could contravene the very law essential to the plan." Packer (1991), 78–79. "The Fall, even in light of its paramount importance to the Father's plan, could not be forced on Adam and Eve. They had to voluntarily choose the course themselves. Nor could their choice be made in ignorance, for a choice made in such a state would not be a true exercise of agency." Campbell (2003), 37–38.

39. Hyrum Andrus wrote that, while in Eden, "Man was considered an independent being who could make decisions for himself. But he would also be responsible for his actions." Andrus (1967), 185.

40. It is the position of this author that Adam and Eve were "as little children" only in their levels of experience and purity—but not in their intellect or understanding of their purposes in Eden.

41. Lund (1989), 104.

42. Elder John A. Widtsoe wrote: "The Lord had warned Adam and Eve of the hard battle with earth conditions if they chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He would not subject his son and daughter to hardship and the death of their bodies unless it be of their own choice. They must choose for themselves. They chose wisely, in accord with the heavenly law of love for others." Widtsoe (1960), 194.

43. Robert L. Millet has written: "It is not to say that children cannot do things that are evil, that they cannot perform deeds that under other circumstances would be called sinful. They certainly can do such things. The revelations teach that their actions are covered by the merciful ministry of our Master. In this sense they cannot sin. Thus, 'little children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement of Jesus Christ.'" Millet (1995), 7.

44. Hertz (1962), 10.

45. Lectures on Faith, 2:12. In 2 Enoch it is claimed that during their stay in Eden Adam and Eve had heaven completely open to their view and that, among other things, they could hear and see the angels singing praises to God. See 2 Enoch 31:2, in Charlesworth (1983–85), 1:152, 154.

46. Pratt, in Journal of Discourses, 21:203–4; see also 7:257.

47. Times and Seasons (1843), 672.

48. Pratt (1978), 85.

49. Taylor (1852), 108–9.

50. Smith (1954), 383–84.

51. See Hunter (1949), 70; (1952), 122; and (1952), 36–37. See also Millet (2000), 161–62.

52. Roberts (1907–1912), 2:62–63. See also Roberts (1996), 399–400; Joseph E. Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 23:246.

53. See, for example, John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 7:363; Smith (1998), 1:95; Millet (2000), 161–62; Matthews, "The Fall of Man" (1990), 46; Bailey (1998), 22; Adams (1990), 102, 105; Reynolds and Sjodahl (1955–1961), 4:219; Ludlow (1975), 314; Campbell (2003), 37–38, 64–68, 112–14; Clarke (n.d.), 1:45, 50; Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown (n.d.), 18; Ginzberg (1967–1969), 1:61. See also Neusner (1985), 264; Robinson (1990), 134–35; Kidner (1967), 63; 2 Enoch 31:2, in Charlesworth (1983–1985), 1:152, 154.

54. In chapter two of this work we will examine why it is that Adam and Eve are depicted as not recognizing Satan for who he really is.

55. See Smith (1998), 1:94–95. See also Times and Seasons (1843), 672. According to Jewish legend, "Adam came from the hands of the Creator fully and completely developed. He was not like a child, but like a man of twenty years of age." See Ginzberg (1967–1969), 1:59. See also Neusner (1985), 154; Oden (2001), 100; Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown (n.d.), 18.

56. See, for example, Chrysostom, "Homilies on Genesis" 15–16, in Oden (2001), 72; Augustine, "On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis" 9.19.36, in Oden (2001), 70.

57. See Ephrem the Syrian, "Commentary on Genesis" 2.15.1, in Oden (2001), 74.

58. Oaks (1993), 73.

59. Widtsoe (1960), 193.

60. Clement of Rome, "The Clementine Homilies" 3:18, in Roberts and Donaldson (1994), 8:241.

61. Ginzberg (1967–1969), 1:61. See also Neusner (1985), 264; Robinson (1990), 134–35.

62. The Hebrew of the Genesis account makes it clear that Adam and Eve were not without an "intellectual" knowledge of "good and evil." Rather, what they did not have was an "experiential" knowledge. In other words, they understood the difference between good and evil, but had no practical experience of the latter of the two. That would come through their disobedience. In the end that is exactly what they had no experience of—disobedience! See Speiser (1962), 26; Clifford and Murphy (1990), 12; Parker (2003), 85.

Admittedly, we humans need the "experiential knowledge" of mortality to fully become like God. But one can mature spiritually and mentally without many of the experiences of life—as Jesus clearly did in the premortal world (where He became a God before He ever experienced mortality, and without ever committing any sins). Of course, in the end Adam and Eve (and you and I) can only become wholly like God via our "experiential knowledge." But clearly Adam and Eve were unique during their stay in Eden—just as Christ was unique when compared to God's other spirit offspring.

63. See Nibley (1988–1990), 2:297.

64. Maxwell (1985), 72.

65. See Pratt (2000), 81.

66. King (1995), s.v. Moses 4:22–25.

67. Smith (1932–1951), 5:135.

68. Keller (2004), 103.

69. Smith (1982), 124. See also Smith (1993), 4:81; Smith (1990), 185–86, in which President Smith stated: "Mortality was created through the eating of the forbidden fruit, if you want to call it forbidden, but I think the Lord has made it clear that it was not forbidden. He merely said to Adam, if you want to stay here [in the garden] this is the situation. If so, don't eat it."

It seems fair to note that, while President Smith's position that Adam and Eve did not receive "contradictory commandments" finds support in the teachings of a number of the Brethren, various General Authorities have held different opinions on how best to address this issue of the seeming contradiction. In the end, in the opinion of this author, President Smith's interpretation seems to best coincide with the overarching doctrine of the Church.

70. Keller (2004), 104.

71. See, for example, Keller (2004), 104. Also, Elder L. Lionel Kendrick wrote: "Adam and Eve made a conscious decision based upon the two choices that were placed before them. They chose mortality." Kendrick (1996), 31. Elsewhere we read: "You may eat from the forbidden tree if you want the consequence that you will fall and man will come into mortality." Parker (2003), 87. Campbell wrote that the "fruit was forbidden to them only if they wished to stay in the Garden because it contained within it the elements of death." Campbell (2003), 113 (see also 37, 75). One patristic scholar noted that Adam was not sent forth from Eden against his will, but rather willingly left Eden because it was his will or desire to do so. See Oden (2001), 100.

72. Descriptions such as the following are common: "In life all must choose at times. Sometimes, two possibilities are good; neither is evil. Usually, however, one is of greater import than the other. When in doubt, each must choose that which concerns the good of others—the greater law—rather than that which chiefly benefits ourselves—the lesser law. . . . That was the choice made in Eden." Campbell (2003), 167. Yet, again, problematic is the suggestion that God would command both, knowing that it is impossible to keep both the "good" and the "better" commandment—both the "higher" and the "lower" law. Were God to do this He would place Adam and Eve in an impossible situation.

[Hemidakota]

After reading this, active temple members may question the validity of the temple endowment story.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe they knew it well, better than anyone ever has on this earth except Jesus or at least equivalent to anyone who has communed with God without the interference of this human body.

This very discussion is why I have a hard time understanding this idea that Adam and Eve simply didn't have children because they had no knowledge as to how that could happen. I believe they had plenty of knowledge and understood the plan fully while in the Garden but the one bit of knowledge they couldn't have is experience. There is knowledge that comes from experience, like trying to teach someone how to ride a bike without letting them get on the bike. This is why it fits, for me, to say that their "bike" so to speak was not capable of reproduction, so they didn't really have full knowledge of how it worked because they had no experience with it yet. Then when the change occurred to their bodies, then they could see how it really worked, their eyes were opened, 'aha, this is what we have been talking about' - kind of thing. They were not immature or ignorant or like a 2 year old, as you have supported with several references, they took part in the covenant of marriage which takes a lot of understanding about the purpose of marriage as well as the plan of salvation. They were just inexperienced until they had a corrupted body that overpowered their spiritual minds, and in that way they didn't have the knowledge of the forces of good and evil and yet could still understand the purpose and the plan.

I have never flown an airplane and yet I understand some of the basics of how an airplane can fly in the air. If I were to ever fly a plane, at that moment, I could say "my eyes have been open" to what it is really like to fly a plane.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[HiJolly]

After reading this, active temple members may question the validity of the temple endowment story.

But hopefully they won't. Excellent article.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

That was my point...of course, we do not draw doctrine from metaphors or symbols. Rather, by correctly understanding the doctrines we can accurately interpret the metaphors and symbols of the scriptures and temple. When we go to the temple, it is our duty to make it point, to learn and understand what is being presented to us.

Even when we few how Eve was created, the three here, President Brigham Young (The Journal of Discourses 2:6; 3:319; 7:285). President Spencer W. Kimball (Engsin Mar 1976, p.71), and Elder Russell M. Nelson, indicated that this is a figurative element in the story, intended to signify a greater gospel truth. It is not a description of the way in which Eve was actually created. (See Nelson, 1987, p.87)

[mikbone]

I believe that they were taught many important things in the Garden of Eden. But I do not think that they had a full understanding of the consequences of their actions, or many details concerning the plan of salvation.

Moses 5: 6-10

[ehkape]

If they had a full understanding, why did the serpent have to beguile Eve?

Why did she ask "is there no other way?" if she knew it before?

Why was Adam shocked, when he found out what Eve had done?

Why did God put a curse on Lucifer, if he only did, what he was supposed to do?

Why did Adam answer the angel that he didn't know why he offered sacrifice on the altar?

[HiJolly]

If they had a full understanding, why did the serpent have to beguile Eve?

Why did she ask "is there no other way?" if she knew it before?

Why was Adam shocked, when he found out what Eve had done?

Why did God put a curse on Lucifer, if he only did, what he was supposed to do?

Why did Adam answer the angel that he didn't know why he offered sacrifice on the altar?

As we are told, the figures of Adam & Eve represent _US_ in the temple endowment ceremony. It is not appropriate to take the endowment as a historical or doctrinal treatise on A&E and their beginnings or lives, but it is to be taken personally, by you and I, about you and I. Our lives.

HiJolly

[Just_A_Guy]

As we are told, the figures of Adam & Eve represent _US_ in the temple endowment ceremony.

Huh. I thought it was the other way around. Will have to listen more closely next time.

[Hemidakota]

Adding to HiJolly posting, it is generally understood that Adam and Eve were typological symbols for the human race. They serve as representations of each of us and our own personal fall from grace.

Quoting from the late President Gordon B. Hinckley, in speaking of the holy temple and the story taught therein, stated, "we have sketched before us the odyssey of man's eternal journey from premortal existence through this life to the life beyond." (Hinckley, 1997, p. 636)

My love for Bruce’s (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie) laborious effort in giving us some old members, wealth of wisdom through years of study the scriptures, stated, “What, then, . . . of the Eden story? . . . A rehearsal of the key events of Eden brings the realization that we too are privileged to leave the lone and dreary world and enter the sacred sanctuaries of the Lord, where we participate in essentially the same experiences known to our first parents before the Fall. The temple is to us as Eden was to Adam and Eve. . . . The story of Eden, in fact, [is] a light that reveals the path all must travel to return to the divine presence. McConkie, ‘The Mystery of Eden’ (1990), 29, 30, 23

[Hemidakota]

I believe that they were taught many important things in the Garden of Eden. But I do not think that they had a full understanding of the consequences of their actions, or many details concerning the plan of salvation.

Moses 5: 6-10

Same assessment made in post #1 by the author and couple of the brethren.

But what is remarkable, was Lucifer who was deceived according to Hugh B. Nibley. He wrote:

"In ancient lore [Eve] is the one who outwits the serpent and trips him up with his own smartness." Nibley, Old Testament and Related Studies (1986), p.88–89

God wanted Adam and Eve to eat, but Lucifer "knew not the mind of God" (Moses 4:6). It follows, therefore, that Satan, either he assumed that God desired Adam and Eve to stay in Eden, or because he wanted access to the rest of GOD's creation [children]; offered them that which was considered "forbidden."

We can clearly see, in doing so, Lucifer thwarted his own plan and aided GOD to succeed. Literally, Lucifer act helped initiate GOD's plan, even though his intent was to frustrate GOD's will. Lucifer help to set up the very circumstance in which the Savior would later 'crush his head' (see Genesis 3:15; Moses 4:21).

Reading your reference;

Moses 5:6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

According to the brethren and scholars, it was after the ‘fall itself’ the veil of forgetfulness was implemented. Why? As explained in OP;

On several occasions Elder Milton R. Hunter taught that it was after Adam and Eve's Fall that the veil was placed upon them, thus wiping out their memory of the premortal life and ending their direct access to the presence of God the Father.51 Elder B. H. Roberts taught that "with the fall of Adam there seems to have come a forgetfulness of the plan of salvation."52 Many commentators recognize that the notion that Adam and Eve labored under a veil in Eden is illogical.53 And if there indeed was no veil between them and their God, then how could they have been ignorant as to why they had been sent to the Garden?54

President Joseph Fielding Smith once remarked that Adam and Eve's intelligence while they were in Eden was greater than that had by any human today. They were intellectually as adults, having great reasoning powers.55 Likewise, anciently it was believed that, prior to his fall, Adam had prophetic gifts and understanding. The early Church did not perceive father Adam as the equivalent of a child in either his pre-fall intellectual or spiritual capacities.56 Rather, he was perceived as having wisdom and knowledge beyond that of the serpent (or Satan).57 Elder Dallin H. Oaks also noted that "our first parents understood the necessity of the Fall."58 Elder John A. Widtsoe wrote:

"The gospel had been taught them during their sojourn in the Garden of Eden. They could not have been left in complete ignorance of the purpose of their creation."59

One early Christian source states:

"Be not deceived. Our father [Adam] was ignorant of nothing."60

Indeed, Judaism holds that prior to the Fall "God revealed [to Adam] the whole history of mankind. . . . The tale of their years, the number of their days, the reckoning of their hours, and the measure of their steps, all were made known unto him."61

[martybess]

After reading this, active temple members may question the validity of the temple endowment story.

I think it helps understand the ceremony better. We must remember that (all) ordinances that G_d has given us have role playing evolved.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

“The word "ordinance" is derived from the Latin ordinare, which means to put in order or sequence; or to act"

What is an ordinance?

An ordinance is a mini drama of a portion of the plan of salvation.

Baptism. Is it not a mini drama? According to the Savior to Nickademus are we not re-enacting our birth coming forth from our mothers whom. According to the Apostle Paul in the book of Romans chapter 6 verse one thru six are we not also at the same moment re-enacting our death, burial and resurrection in the likeness of Jesus Christ. It truly is a mini drama.

Partaking of the Sacrament is it not a mini drama of part of the plan of salvation. We are taking of his flesh symbolically and of his blood symbolically and symbolically bring inside of ourselves so that he becomes part with us. So every ordinance is a mini drama. Notice what is does. The ordinances have a tendency to set in order the plan of salvation. Especially the temple drama. Notice it orders the plan of salvation from before the creation thru exaltation. It sets everything in order.

The same is true with the endowment.

..

[martybess]

Another principle concerning ordinances is they can be seen and a doorway opening up to further light and knowledge.

We know that there is an ordinance call the endowment. But there are suppose to be blessings and powers received by one because they have been endowed. Most of the time the term endowment in the scriptures is referring not to the ordinance of the endowment but what should be happening in our lives because the ordinance has been preformed.

(D&C 38:32-33 & 38)

32 Wherefore, for this cause I gave unto you the commandment that ye should go to the Ohio; and there I will give unto you my law; and there you shall be endowed with power from on high;

After the ordinance has been preformed we should receive power from on high.

33 And from thence, whosoever I will shall go forth among all nations, and it shall be told them what they shall do; for I have a great work laid up in store, for Israel shall be saved, and I will lead them whithersoever I will, and no power shall stay my hand.”

38” See that all things are preserved; and when men are endowed with power from on high and sent forth, all these things shall be gathered unto the bosom of the church.”

(D&C 43:16)” And ye are to be taught from on high. Sanctify yourselves and ye shall be endowed with power, that ye may give even as I have spoken.”

(D&C 105:11-12)”

11 And this cannot be brought to pass until mine elders are endowed with power from on high.

12 For behold, I have prepared a great endowment and blessing to be poured out upon them, inasmuch as they are faithful and continue in humility before me.

History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 2

“Remember, you are not to go to their nations till you receive your endowments. Tarry at Kirtland until you are endowed with power from on high. You need a fountain of wisdom, knowledge and intelligence such as you never had. Relative to the endowment, I make a remark or two, that there may be no mistake. The world cannot receive the things of God. He can endow you without worldly pomp or great parade. He can give you that wisdom, that intelligence, and that power, which characterized the ancient saints, and now characterizes the inhabitants of the upper world.”

So according to the prophet Joseph Smith once you have received the endowment ordinance we should bring into our lives an endowment to what he referred to as a great power a fountain of wisdom, knowledge and intelligence that will be equivalent to those who are the ancient saints and also those who inhabit the upper world.

The question might be asked is everybody that’s endowed receive such power, knowledge and intelligence.

These things do not come automatically because an ordinance has been preformed. Anymore the Holy Ghost comes simply because you had hands laid on you head for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Notice the wording is receive the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is not being commanded to go to that person that person is being commanded to receive the Holy Ghost. So it is with the endowment. The endowment is a doorway opening up to greater light and knowledge and understanding.

When Joseph Smith was teaching about the plan of salvation, where we came from, why were here and where we are going he explained “Knowledge of these things can only be obtained by experience through the ordinances of God set forth for that purpose.”(Teachings page 124) “I assure the Saints that truth, in reference to these matters, can and may be known through the revelations of God in the way of His ordinances, and in answer to prayer.” (Teachings page 125)

So you see the ordinances are doorways that open up to those who are interested in the privilege of receiving greater light and knowledge from God. Because the priesthood has the power to administer those ordinances and has the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom of God.

(D&C 84:19-20)

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.”

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

Notice how both male and female are equal under the priesthood. Notice the important thing as indicated here is not holding the priesthood but having the power of godliness which is manifest in the ordinances. That’s very critical. I think we learn through the ordinances the power of the atonement then as the power make us like our Father in Heaven. Latter Day Saints are very clear in their doctrine, that we become like God. And it’s be way of the ordinances that we progress to that point.

So male and female are absolutely equal under the priesthood. Notice I hold the priesthood but I cannot give myself one blessing. If I want a blessing guess what, I have to go to somebody else who has the priesthood to give it to me. If I want any ordinance preformed upon myself I cannot perform any ordinance upon myself I have to go to somebody else who holds the priesthood. Therefore Heavenly Father has made his sons and his daughters equal under the priesthood and equal access to the power of Godliness which is thru the ordinances because it’s the ordinances which the power of godliness is manifest to men in the flesh. Very important that we understand. Truly the D&C does reveals the priesthood.

By way of these ordinances we begin to secure things unto ourselves.

What happens as these ordinances are preformed and as we are true and faithful to the covenants that we make as we receive these ordinances? Let’s see what is really happening to us as we are progressing through the ordinances receiving line upon line and as we are receiving light, knowledge and understanding concerning the power of godliness. Lets go to the

D&C section 132.

Verse 6, notice the ordinances are entree or initiation into the new and everlasting covenant.

“And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.” Notice were having something given to us, it’s referred to here as “the fullness of Gods glory”. What does that make in the end? Well again the D&C is very clear. (my thought.... by abiding the laws given in the ordinaces one recievces power, the power of Godliness).

Let’s go to verse 20 to find out what happens to a person who receives the fullness of all of these blessings.

“20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.”

No wonder satin in the apostasy changed the ordinances. Fouled up the order or the sequence of events that one must go through to become his Father in Heaven. The ordinances put our route back to the presence of God in order and in proper sequence with the powers and the rights and the keys so we can obtain our full end which is to become like our Father in Heaven. What a powerful revelation. What more could we ask for as children of a God. Then to become what he is. And to be instructed by the power of the priesthood as it is a channel bringing to us the information on how to progress to that point.

..

[Seminarysnoozer]

If they had a full understanding, why did the serpent have to beguile Eve?

Why did she ask "is there no other way?" if she knew it before?

Why was Adam shocked, when he found out what Eve had done?

Why did God put a curse on Lucifer, if he only did, what he was supposed to do?

Why did Adam answer the angel that he didn't know why he offered sacrifice on the altar?

To answer the last two questions ... The "curse" is a description of the new conditions that resulted from the fall as it relates to Lucifer. Because of the fall ... this is what is going to happen.

And, I thought Adam's sacrifice by faith occurred after the fall, after the veil was placed.

[mikbone]

"In ancient lore [Eve] is the one who outwits the serpent and trips him up with his own smartness." Nibley, Old Testament and Related Studies (1986), p.88–89

God wanted Adam and Eve to eat, but Lucifer "knew not the mind of God" (Moses 4:6). It follows, therefore, that Satan, either he assumed that God desired Adam and Eve to stay in Eden, or because he wanted access to the rest of GOD's creation [children]; offered them that which was considered "forbidden."

Eve was beguiled. God outsmarted Lucifer.

Alma 42 describes a situation wherein if Adam and Eve had partaken of the Tree of Life immediately after partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that the plan of salvation would have been fustrated.

But the Lord God placed cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the Tree of Life. This is how Lucifer was outwitted.

[Justice]

...They were just inexperienced until they had a corrupted body that overpowered their spiritual minds, and in that way they didn't have the knowledge of the forces of good and evil and yet could still understand the purpose and the plan.

There is one other thing that is impossible for us to understand at this point in our progression, because we are no longer like they were...

...innocent.

The fact that they were innocent changes how we use logic to try to determine their standing in the Garden of Eden.

They were innocent, as little children, and therefore could not understand this use of the body, even if instructed or commanded. They didn't even know or realize they were naked until after they partook of the forbidden fruit.

You can explain procreation to a 2 or 3 year old and it will mean absolutely nothing.

Having children is not evil nor part of the corrupted world. It is ordained by God. It is what we do to the practice that makes it evil.

[Justice]

Eve was beguiled. God outsmarted Lucifer.

Alma 42 describes a situation wherein if Adam and Eve had partaken of the Tree of Life immediately after partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that the plan of salvation would have been fustrated.

But the Lord God placed cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the Tree of Life. This is how Lucifer was outwitted.

This is also described in greater detail in Alma 14 (started in 13).

If you pay very close attention to whenever this story is told, God did not place the cherubim and flaming sword until AFTER Adam and Eve left the Garden.

I believe God gave them their choice, after they partook of the forbidden fruit, whether to partake of the tree of life at that point, and forgo their mortality, or to leave the Garden and enter mortality. They chose to enter mortality. I believe THIS is the choice Adam and Eve are to be honored for.

[Traveler]

I do not think Adam and Eve understood the fall. Some time later, much after leaving the garden, Adam is offering sacrifice and when questioned by an angel he had no idea why. This is basic plan of salvation 101 stuff.

I think some are way over speculating.

The Traveler

[Justice]

As has been said, they may very well have been taught about the fall, but it was impossible to understand without experience.

How could they even understand death and ultimate sacrifice as immortal? How could they have understood the need to offer sacrifice until after they fell?

It takes a lot of quiet contemplation and pondering to imagine what it may have been like for them before and after the fall. It's like us trying to understand eternity now, they could not understand something that was finite or that ended. What did it mean to them that Jehova would be born (they were innocent and did not understand) and then die (they were immortal and had no understanding of death).

Although they may have been taught the words, they were beyond their grasp.

[pam]

Do you have the link to this article?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Having children is not evil nor part of the corrupted world. It is ordained by God. It is what we do to the practice that makes it evil.

Corrupted to me does not equal evil, just to be clear. To me it just means not perfect. And believe me, after 4 children and 2 miscarriages having children in this world is corrupted. "16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;" Having children the way we do is absolutely part of the corrupted world. The privilege of participating in bringing a child of God into this world is a part of the process but the mechanics of it I believe is very corrupted and likely as God's proclamation to the woman suggests started with the fall. ... note the words "I will greatly ..."

I really hope having children in the afterlife, the process of birthing (not the rest of it) is nothing like it is here because I can't imagine going through that over and over, without end.

[Hemidakota]

Do you have the link to this article?

Which article?

Alonzo L. Gaskill, 'The Savior and The Serpent', Salt Lake City 2005

Edited May 26, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Seminarysnoozer]

There is one other thing that is impossible for us to understand at this point in our progression, because we are no longer like they were...

...innocent.

The fact that they were innocent changes how we use logic to try to determine their standing in the Garden of Eden.

They were innocent, as little children, and therefore could not understand this use of the body, even if instructed or commanded. They didn't even know or realize they were naked until after they partook of the forbidden fruit.

You can explain procreation to a 2 or 3 year old and it will mean absolutely nothing.

.

I would take your example to the other end of the spectrum of age though. I think it is like explaining to my grandmother who is 85 years old how bad the internet can be. She is very knowledgeable and has experienced many things in her life but in her world there was no internet and she can't fully understand the implications of it because she has never really used the internet. Explaining it means something, she just can't really appreciate its real life significance. .... Just like Adam and Eve understood but could not know what it was like to have the veil and to have "natural" carnal drives, they were innocent to those feelings.

I believe our knowledge of just about everything was greater before the veil. To me, the veil is a covering that erases memory and knowledge and at the same time takes away innocence. To me innocence is not ignorance. Innocence relates more to lack of experience than it does knowledge.

[martybess]

Hemi great thread! The posts have helped my understanding of the garden and fall.