False Prophets


UrbanFool
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UrbanFool, I was reading one of Brian Yorgason’s articles (just now) that relates President Brigham Young dream, when he was very ill at Winter Quarters, after pleading to be reunited with the Prophet and being told that the time was not right, President Young asked if Joseph at least had a word of counsel for the Saints.

"Joseph stepped toward me and looking very earnestly, yet pleasantly, said, 'Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the spirit of the Lord and it will lead them right. Be careful and do not turn away the still small voice; it will teach them what to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, strife, and all evil from their hearts, and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the Kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure and tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven, before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized and in great confusion.'

"Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe, but I saw it, and saw where the priesthood had been taken from the earth (and then restored) and how it must be joined together, so that there would be a perfect chain, from Father Adam to his latest posterity. Joseph again said, 'Tell the people to be sure and keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right'" (In Preston Nibley, Exodus to Greatness [salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1947], p. 329).

Did you notice any pattern within President Young’s dream that was significant by Joseph for the Saints? Spirit of Lord was mentioned six times or another words, “Come unto me (Jesus Christ).” Before Moroni closes the last remaining plate in the Book of Mormon, he explains:

"I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing. . . .

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

"And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot" (Moroni 10:30, 32-33).

Now listen to what the Savior stated:

"He that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true. . . .

"Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief. Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief. Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel" (Ether 4:11, 13-15).

What brought the earlier church were the internal false Christ’s or spirits within. We may not know those within today who have that evil desire to led astray the masses, but, the scriptures told us to “Come unto Christ” and be “sanctify” before Him. If we are, it won’t matter who it is/they are, we will follow the Savior and the prophet of that day, in order to survive what is coming.

"Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will" (D&C 88:68).

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Over the years, I've seen a lot of statements by a lot of faithful Church leaders that, if summarized, fit neatly into these points:

1. The Prophet will never leave the Church astray. Stick with the Prophet.

2. The majority of the Twelve will never apostatize. Stick with the majority of the Twelve.

3. The records of the Church will not be permitted to fall into the hands of another people. Stay with the body that maintains the records of the Church.

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And you are a MODERATOR...:rolleyes:

What? Did I say something wrong?

Edit: You obviously disagree with me in a big sort of way, seeing that you flagged my post and are making reference to me being a moderator. Care to elaborate? Send me a PM if this is more than just a disagreement on what false prophets are, or some kind of personal issue.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin
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And you are a MODERATOR...:rolleyes: [Flagged the post]

:huh: Ummmm...I can't really speak for Vanhin (he can correct me if I am wrong) but I think his post was in reference to my post (#34) about this brother who allegedly got his second anointing and goes around teaching unorthodox doctrines to people.

Wow, this is weird.

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:huh: Ummmm...I can't really speak for Vanhin (he can correct me if I am wrong) but I think his post was in reference to my post (#34) about this brother who allegedly got his second anointing and goes around teaching unorthodox doctrines to people.

Wow, this is weird.

It was indeed in reference to that. That particular vein of "false prophets" pop up from time to time, and if they preach things outside of the established doctrine of the Church and claim to have special authority to do so because of a special revelatory experience, then I think we should be wary of them.

Just in case this was the issue, I'm not saying one cannot have their calling and election made sure or that it is false doctrine. That it certainly is not. We should all be striving for that. However, even when that does happen to a person, and even if they are privileged to see things that have not been revealed generally, they are not authorized to preach those things outside of the established order of priesthood.

In a nutshell, that was my point. But since Hemi has not articulated what exactly he took offense to, I can only speculate.

Regards,

Vanhin

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I don't get what was wrong with Vanhin's post.

If I am wrong I would gladly apologized. Separate the Saints who are humbled enough to admit wrong here. But, not at this point.

Pam, this goes back not to post 34 as the same few would seek to cover ones track but old "collision postings between him and me of the past." That is an issue and especially from a moderator. Moderators need to back out of the forum discussion and do their job - moderate or to keep the thread on course per say. Maybe, a lesson in "discernment of the Spirit" should be required as a moderator? :P But again, that would require one to be a true devote follower of Christ to the 'T''.

UrbanFool. I will apologize to you since this is your thread. But as I previously stated "The Key for the last days for protection", two elements to know those who "fruit of their labor" is not of Christ, is really discernment by Spirit. The two elements needed for those today, is 1]come unto Christ and be "sanctify" by Him. Hopefully, your OQ is answered. ;)

Moving on...

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Wilford Woodruff made this statement now included in Official Declaration 1:

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

(Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

This is a very comforting quote. It's nice to know that we have such righteous leaders and that God is in control so we just have to "follow the prophet" and we will be alright. It is a comforting idea, but God disagrees.

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – APPLIED IT TO THE PRESENT STATE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS – SAID IF THE PEOPLE DEPARTED FROM THE LORD, THEY MUST FALL – THAT THEY WERE DEPENDING ON THE PROPHET, HENCE WERE DARKENED IN THEIR MINDS, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy. ” -

(TPJS Section Five 1842-43, p.237-38.)

Right there Joseph Smith says that if we are depending on the prophets we will be darkened in our minds. Now this doesn't contradict Wilford Woodruff statement but just wait.

So now has any of us actually read Ezekiel 14? I'm not going to do your homework so erad the whole thing yourselves. But the main points of the chapter is that if we have idols in our hearts God will give us answers according to those idols. towards the end it gives an example of how prophets cannot save us, but we are resposible for our own salvation.

But one verse is very important.

Ezekiel 14:99 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Here it plainly says that God deceives prophets. Now it should be note that the JST versino of this verse says that God doesn't deceive the prophets. Now this may seem contradictory but it is not. The following scriptures explain it.

1 Kings 22:21-23

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a alying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a alying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

In these verse we learn that while God allows prophets to be deceived he is not the one who deceives. God allows someone else to deceived the prophets. Now one quess as to who that spirit is.

But what for? Why would God allow his holy prophets to be deceived? The answer is quite simple.

Deuteronomy 13:2-3

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

God allows prophets to be deceived so that we will be tested. He tests us to see if we will really follow Him or if we are trusting in the arm of flesh.

Here's another quote from Joseph Smith.

"Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil."

Now there is also a vers ein the D&C that supports this teaching. I found it the other day and I will find it again if anyone needs more convincing. But here Joseph Smith again confirms what the Bible is teaching us that Prophets can be deceived.

So now it begs the question. How do we know when a prophet is teaching false teachings. We must again turn to Joseph Smith.

“There have also been ministering angels in the Church which were of Satan appearing as an angel of light. [(Gives an example)].. Many true things were spoken by this personage, and many things that were false. How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By the color of his hair; that is one of the signs that he can be known by, and by his contradicting a former revelation.”(Joseph Smith, TPJS, pp. 214-215)

We see that the way to tell false spirit is if it teaches something that contradticts a previous revelation. Therefor the way to detect a false spirit influencing a prophet is if what that prophet teaches contradticts a previous revelation. So let's examine Wilford Woodruff's statement again.

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God."

Now does this match previous revelations or contradicts them. For me this is a contradiction and thus a false teaching. Not only does it go against the Scriptures but also the teachings of the Prophet that opened this dispensation. It teaches us to be lazy and not learn the words of God so that we can compare them to current teachings. We let others do the thinking for us and we just follow along.

Do we idolize our modern prophets so much that we will not seek to compare their teachings with the Word of God? If we follow along and accept anything our prophets teaches it because a living prophet "trumps" a dead one then we have failed the test. And our minds will be darkened as a result.

Now I don't want people to think that I believe that our living prophets are false. I don't. I believe they are true prophets. And I also believe that today, just like in the past, God allows our modern prophets to mislead us as a test of our faithfulness to Him.

Here's one last quote:

“We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.”-JOSEPH SMITH: Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595.

In conclusion I find it interested that the teaching, that prophets cannot lead us astray, came from the same conference where the Manifesto was presented. And also that Manifesto banning Plural Marriage contradicts four previous revelations. One of those revelations stating that God will never revoke it. But I'll save all the Manifesto/Plural Marriage stuff for another thread.

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Vanhin, this is my answer in my last post.

Still leaves me very confused...

I know you and I disagree about some things, but I wasn't aware that we disagreed about revelation and the proper line of authority. I am open to discussing the matter with you if you want to share an opposing point of view. That's what this thread is about... "false prophets" among members (and non-members) of the Church.

Do you think that someone who has had their calling and election made sure is authorized to teach doctrines outside the official doctrine of the Church - beyond what the Lord has revealed through his prophet?

If a moderator is needed, which up to this point none was needed (unless I missed something), I will let another moderator handle it since there would now obviously be a conflict of interest.

Regards,

Vanhin

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Hemi? Perhaps President Woodruff meant something like this,...."because the Lord would ultimately remove him if he did." Because, as you know this Church is the stone that was carved out of the mountain without hands and will never fall and because of that....President Woodruff is correct.

But it is not up to the Lord to remove a prophet, or cleans a false teaching. It is up to us, it's our test. That's what Joseph Smith, the Scriptures, and God are telling us.

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One of the main issues I have though with that statement deseretgov is that IF is possible that the Prophet can lead us astray, then the quotes of JS that you just put become invalid because (according to your post's main point) he could have lied or led the people astray in those quotes....

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But it is not up to the Lord to remove a prophet, or cleans a false teaching. It is up to us, it's our test. That's what Joseph Smith, the Scriptures, and God are telling us.

I don't know if I totally agree with this. The Lord has promised he won't let a prophet lead us astray. But for example if President Monson was doing just that, wouldn't the Quorum of the Twelve receive some kind of revelation from Heavenly Father that this was so?

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One of the main issues I have though with that statement deseretgov is that IF is possible that the Prophet can lead us astray, then the quotes of JS that you just put become invalid because (according to your post's main point) he could have lied or led the people astray in those quotes....

Yes that's true. And the teachings in the scriptures could be the result of mislead prophets too.

So for me what all that means is to let the Holy Spirit guide us in coming to know what is the Word of God. We can not let our salvation be determined by the writings or teachings of others. It is only through a strong relationship between God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and ourselves, that we can attain salvation. If we have that relationship then we will be led down that path that leads back to our Heavenly Father.

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But it is not up to the Lord to remove a prophet, or cleans a false teaching. It is up to us, it's our test. That's what Joseph Smith, the Scriptures, and God are telling us.

But of course the Lord leads and guides HIS church and this is it.... I mean this church...this Gospel dispensation is it.......HE is preparing to return......so, I do believe that nothing will stop the work from proceeding in preparation for the return of the Savior...including a wayward Prophet.

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But of course the Lord leads and guides HIS church and this is it.... I mean this church...this Gospel dispensation is it.......HE is preparing to return......so, I do believe that nothing will stop the work from proceeding in preparation for the return of the Savior...including a wayward Prophet.

Oh. Yes I do agree with that. This is the final dispensation. I don't believe this work will come to a halt. Not a prophet that teaches something false can do that.

My point is just that it is up to us to make sure we are following the Word of God. We cannot just follow a prophet without making sure that what that prophet teaches is correct. We cannot allow ourselves to be lulled into thinking all is well in Zion, just becuase we think a prophet can never lead us astray. It is an incorrect teaching and we must be constanly on guard, searching the scriptures, and most importantly seeking for the witness of the Holy Ghost.

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