Quick question about resurrected bodies


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MarginOfError, your background on the temple sybolism is excellent! Few people study much about the symbolism of the temple. Hugh Nibley wrote a book called "Temples and Cosmos" which covered much about ancient temples compared to today and is a great read.

The following will be my personal insights into understanding what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15.

Background: The apostles went around throughout the land teaching the people and setting up churches. Leaders were ordained to lead the churches established throughout the land. Many of the new converts and leaders in the church were paigans or jews who brought with them the old traditions of their forfathers and corruption quickly began to spread through the churches in regards to interpretation of Christ teachings and doctrine. Paul wrote epistles (letters) to the churches established throughout the land, having authority and by revelation, to correct the misinterpretations among the saints.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul brought up an interesting question.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Some of the saints in Corinth did not believe in the resurrection, but Paul went on to explain that because Christ has risen, that all will be resurrected. Paul brings up two more questions that some of the people might have.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Paul goes on to answer these specific questions.

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

The body grains differ and are not the same.

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

God's creations have different flesh which is not the same.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

I would assume by the pattern of the verses that not only are these celestial and terrestrial bodies different but there glory is also different.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

These visual objects in the sky make it easy for one to recognize that none of them look the same in regards to glory. When I think of the description of Christ by any of the prophets, they almost always distinguish that his brightness and glory are greater than anything that they can compare it to. Joseph originally wrote the word fire in "The First Vision" account and later changed it to glory to give it a better description/meaning. He was surprised that everything around him was not consumed by fire. The scriptures mention angels visiting people, but there glory is not like that of the Savior. In Moses 1, Moses questioned Satan by saying

13 Who art thou? For behold, I am a ason of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?

14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?

1 Corinthians 15:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in acorruption; it is raised in incorruption:

It appears as though Paul is stating that the state of the body being resurrected has at least a distinguishing characteristic that would qualify one for a certain degree of glory.

Other verses stood out to me in D&C 76.

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the bFirstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

I find 94-95 to be the most fasinating. Is it possible that the distinguishing factor is in regard to how much of the fulness (ie power, glory, dominion, knowledge, etc.) one recieves?

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

This verse appears to explain that there are countless degrees of glory alone in the telestial state.

I'm going to spin this for a minute. The scriptures refer to intelligence as the acting agent and called it intelligence or light. God is the most intelligent of all intelligences, "I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all"(Abr 3:19). In reference to verses 94-95 above, I wonder if the knowlege shared with us because of our rightesouness could play a part in the glory factor.

I in noway attempt to convince anyone that I am right. I hope my thoughts help others to think. I love interesting conversations.

One last point, someone mentioned spiritual off spring. Consider this thought when playing with the idea. Do not Celestial Beings only create a perfect spirit body and an intelligence is placed within the body giving it life? Pick away! :D

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I find 94-95 to be the most fasinating. Is it possible that the distinguishing factor is in regard to how much of the fulness (ie power, glory, dominion, knowledge, etc.) one recieves?

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

This verse appears to explain that there are countless degrees of glory alone in the telestial state.

It isn't how much fullness one receives but how much of the fullness one is willing to receive. There is a difference. God looks at the heart, not the list of achievements alone.

More interesting than a discussion of how one Telestial body differs in glory from another, I think, is the observation that the Celestial body is of one kind and the Terrestrial body is of one kind. ...at least if you are trying to take the metaphor as specifically as you are suggesting.

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  • 4 years later...

Resurrecting (pun intended) a really old thread here...

I think D&C 88 makes it clear that our bodies will differ based on the kingdom where we are to be assigned. (Specifically, vs 28) https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/88.17-31?lang=eng#p16)

That being said, I do not understand how this will work with judgment being after the resurrection.

Thoughts?

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On 5/9/2011 at 4:01 PM, hungrytrash said:

In a sense, God does people a favor by judging them to the Telestial kingdom. He sends everyone where they would be most happy.

Since I resurrected the thread, and aware that hungrytrash likely won't be around, I was reading through this thread because of our lesson today in gospel doctrine. Several people expressed this sentiment. I consider the idea utterly false doctrine.

Mosiah 27:31

"Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye."

Quaking and trembling at an everlasting punishment doesn't sound like happiness at a great favor to me.

 

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On 10/2/2012 at 10:04 AM, Traveler said:

This may only be because so many spirits are extremely anxious to be born into a mortal experience. It is quite possible that in the eternities; intelligence that has reached the possibility of divine birth will forgo any lesser than Celestial parents - thus rendering reproductive behaviors of lesser beings fruitless.

 

The Traveler

So you're selling the idea of a lesser kingdom being one of eternal sex without procreation?

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29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Resurrecting (pun intended) a really old thread here...

I think D&C 88 makes it clear that our bodies will differ based on the kingdom where we are to be assigned. (Specifically, vs 28) https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/88.17-31?lang=eng#p16)

That being said, I do not understand how this will work with judgment being after the resurrection.

Thoughts?

It seems we are quickened by the portion or fulness of the glory we have attained to in this life (D&C 130;19; 88:27-32), and then brought to stand before God where we will suffer a judgement of withdrawal to a lesser kingdom -- some sooner than others -- since we cannot bear that presence, or come to the innumerable company of angels and church of the Firstborn (76:67), since we can bear His presence.

Edited by CV75
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9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Since I resurrected the thread, and aware that hungrytrash likely won't be around, I was reading through this thread because of our lesson today in gospel doctrine. Several people expressed this sentiment. I consider the idea utterly false doctrine.

Mosiah 27:31

"Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye."

Quaking and trembling at an everlasting punishment doesn't sound like happiness at a great favor to me.

 

I agree.

Mosiah 16:2. "And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord;...". And, Alma 40:13 "...there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil."

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13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Since I resurrected the thread, and aware that hungrytrash likely won't be around, I was reading through this thread because of our lesson today in gospel doctrine. Several people expressed this sentiment. I consider the idea utterly false doctrine.

Mosiah 27:31

"Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye."

Quaking and trembling at an everlasting punishment doesn't sound like happiness at a great favor to me.

Do you think telestial and terrestrial beings will spend all eternity in this moment?  To me, it seems this describes an event, not a state; on the other hand, "telestial" (for example) describes a state, which will come after they have paid for their sins and suffered through the judgement of God.  Indeed, these verses seem to support the idea - if a person will "quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye", and the Celestial Kingdom is to dwell in his presence for eternity, what could be worse for such a person than to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom quaking, and trembling, and shrinking beneath the glance of his all-searching eye?  Would not such a person be happier out of the presence of that glance?

I don't think people who believe people will end up in the kingdom where they are happiest mean to imply that the people in a lower kingdom will be as happy as people in a higher kingdom, just that they will be happy where they end up (or happier there than they would be in another kingdom - higher or lower).  There may be occasional regrets because had they so chosen, they could have had greater happiness, but except in perdition, they aren't going to be eternally miserable.

IMO, the verses @classylady posts describes those who end up in perdition (permanent state), and those who are suffering for their sins in spirit prison (temporary state).  If telestial and terrestrial beings were constantly howling, weeping, wailing, gnashing teeth, and held captive by the devil (who's been ejected even from those kingdoms), they would be useless to God, and yet they are described as beings who will be servants.  Thus, I think that state is only permanent for the sons of perdition.

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15 minutes ago, classylady said:

I agree.

Mosiah 16:2. "And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord;...". And, Alma 40:13 "...there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil."

it is verses like this that led me to ask the question below about Alma 41:4 

 

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1 minute ago, zil said:

Do you think telestial and terrestrial beings will spend all eternity in this moment?  To me, it seems this describes an event, not a state; on the other hand, "telestial" (for example) describes a state, which will come after they have paid for their sins and suffered through the judgement of God.  Indeed, these verses seem to support the idea - if a person will "quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye", and the Celestial Kingdom is to dwell in his presence for eternity, what could be worse for such a person than to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom quaking, and trembling, and shrinking beneath the glance of his all-searching eye?  Would not such a person be happier out of the presence of that glance?

I don't think people who believe people will end up in the kingdom where they are happiest mean to imply that the people in a lower kingdom will be as happy as people in a higher kingdom, just that they will be happy where they end up (or happier there than they would be in another kingdom - higher or lower).  There may be occasional regrets because had they so chosen, they could have had greater happiness, but except in perdition, they aren't going to be eternally miserable.

IMO, the verses @classylady posts describes those who end up in perdition (permanent state), and those who are suffering for their sins in spirit prison (temporary state).  If telestial and terrestrial beings were constantly howling, weeping, wailing, gnashing teeth, and held captive by the devil (who's been ejected even from those kingdoms), they would be useless to God, and yet they are described as beings who will be servants.  Thus, I think that state is only permanent for the sons of perdition.

It's true that there is often conflation of the prison situation and the final judgment, which is why I used the specific scripture I did which is very clearly concerning final judgment day. And no I do not believe that the state of trembling and quaking will be eternal. I do believe that the fact that it is eternal punishment, as declared in the verse, is true. And I do believe there will be a level of peace attained in the lower kingdoms. They are kingdoms of glory, after all. And Joseph said we'd kill ourselves to attain the lowest I believe.

What I do not believe is that God is doing us a "favor". I do not believe the lower kingdoms are better for anyone, or that anyone will see it that way. 

We seem to forget that our remembrance of all things will include untold eons of premortal existence wherein we fought for the opportunity to become like God. I have a hard time accepting that when we recall this that we'll just ignore it in favor of our mortal proclivities and weaknesses and just be happy that we failed.

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19 minutes ago, zil said:

Do you think telestial and terrestrial beings will spend all eternity in this moment?  To me, it seems this describes an event, not a state; on the other hand, "telestial" (for example) describes a state, which will come after they have paid for their sins and suffered through the judgement of God.  Indeed, these verses seem to support the idea - if a person will "quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye", and the Celestial Kingdom is to dwell in his presence for eternity, what could be worse for such a person than to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom quaking, and trembling, and shrinking beneath the glance of his all-searching eye?  Would not such a person be happier out of the presence of that glance?

I don't think people who believe people will end up in the kingdom where they are happiest mean to imply that the people in a lower kingdom will be as happy as people in a higher kingdom, just that they will be happy where they end up (or happier there than they would be in another kingdom - higher or lower).  There may be occasional regrets because had they so chosen, they could have had greater happiness, but except in perdition, they aren't going to be eternally miserable.

IMO, the verses @classylady posts describes those who end up in perdition (permanent state), and those who are suffering for their sins in spirit prison (temporary state).  If telestial and terrestrial beings were constantly howling, weeping, wailing, gnashing teeth, and held captive by the devil (who's been ejected even from those kingdoms), they would be useless to God, and yet they are described as beings who will be servants.  Thus, I think that state is only permanent for the sons of perdition.

I also agree with this. I don't think the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth would be permanent.  But, I do believe that, for me, because of my knowledge of right and wrong, I will have more than just an occasional feeling of regret for not attaining the highest degree of glory. I will accept and agree with the glory I am assigned, but I will probably feel a great deal of remorse and regret for disregarding the commandments knowing full well I could have and should have been obedient. 

Edited by classylady
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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

What I do not believe is that God is doing us a "favor". I do not believe the lower kingdoms are better for anyone, or that anyone will see it that way.

Ah, I see what you're saying now.  I agree.  Certainly, God is not doing us a favor - rather, as much mercy will be applied as can be without robbing justice, and justice will take care of the rest.  We put ourselves in the various kingdoms (in a sense).  And I do believe that those who inherit lower kingdoms will have sorrow and regret at not attaining a higher, and yet, a form of relief at not having to spend eternity in the presence of God.

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4 minutes ago, zil said:

, and yet, a form of relief at not having to spend eternity in the presence of God.

Not sure about this.  Why would those who have spent eons with a father they love feel relief at never being able to be with Him again?

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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Not sure about this.  Why would those who have spent eons with a father they love feel relief at never being able to be with Him again?

Because being in his presence with a full knowledge of their own guilt and failure is the definition of misery?  (You know, all that quaking, trembling, and shrinking stuff? Or, as described in relation to the second coming, wishing the rocks would fall on them and cover them?  I have a hard time believing that feeling would ever completely disappear.)

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37 minutes ago, zil said:

Because being in his presence with a full knowledge of their own guilt and failure is the definition of misery?  (You know, all that quaking, trembling, and shrinking stuff? Or, as described in relation to the second coming, wishing the rocks would fall on them and cover them?  I have a hard time believing that feeling would ever completely disappear.)

The component that is often left out of the discussion (imo) is the fact that we came to earth supporting God's plan that we could become like Him. The fact that we may not be comfortable around Him having failed and that our shame in having failed will make us wish we could be buried by rocks doesn't equate, to me, to "relief". It could, I admit, be termed that way from a certain point of view. But I think there are implicit ideas in using such a term that are not, to my thinking, wholly accurate. Relief implies, "Well, I didn't really want that anyway." I do not believe that will be the case. Rather, I think, we'll be excessively and eternally traumatized by having not achieved something that we actually did, very much, want.

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2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The component that is often left out of the discussion (imo) is the fact that we came to earth supporting God's plan that we could become like Him. The fact that we may not be comfortable around Him having failed and that our shame in having failed will make us wish we could be buried by rocks doesn't equate, to me, to "relief". It could, I admit, be termed that way from a certain point of view. But I think there are implicit ideas in using such a term that are not, to my thinking, wholly accurate. Relief implies, "Well, I didn't really want that anyway." I do not believe that will be the case. Rather, I think, we'll be excessively and eternally traumatized by having not achieved something that we actually did, very much, want.

Perhaps.  I don't think we can know in mortality what life in eternity will be.  Our ideas about it are mostly speculation anyway.  I can see a case for a variety of beliefs (none of which seem that different to me except in a few details).  In the end, I'm gonna side with Paul - we can't imagine. :) 

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I think all those resurrected up until now have resurrected telestial bodies. At the start of the millennium those will be quickened to terrestrial bodies. After the millennium those will be quickened again into celestial bodies.

I say this in light of the purpose of the millennium will be for Christ to perfect the kingdom to present it, as a singular kingdom, to the Father.

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11 hours ago, zil said:

Perhaps.  I don't think we can know in mortality what life in eternity will be.  Our ideas about it are mostly speculation anyway.  I can see a case for a variety of beliefs (none of which seem that different to me except in a few details).  In the end, I'm gonna side with Paul - we can't imagine. :) 

With all due respect, this sort of answer strikes me as a bit of a cop out. God reveals information to us for a reason. Whereas we cannot know everything there are clearly things we are meant to know and understand. I don't know where the line is on all these things, but in this case God has given us enough revelation to fairly easily conclude that those who do not attain the Celestial Kingdom are actually being punished and that their wickedness cannot and will not ever be happiness. It's not an obscure mystery or something. It actually takes a fair amount of work to twist things and declare it otherwise. In point of fact, I don't understand the motivation behind those who seek to explain the lower kingdoms away that way. God has made it clear time and again that turning away from Him in any degree will lead to misery. So what is the motivation some have in trying the explain that away as not really true? From my perspective it seems that an argument that going to the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms is A-okay, you'll be happier there, God's doing you a favor, all will be well and awesome, and you would-a been miserable in the Celestial Kingdom anyhow, etc., is nothing but a means to validate Satan's goals.

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4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

With all due respect, this sort of answer strikes me as a bit of a cop out.

That's OK by me.  To me, it's an "I don't know" and "I don't think it's been publicly revealed" how happy or miserable people in lower degrees of glory will be as compared to those who reach the highest glory.  (And I suspect it could vary from person to person.)  You make a good argument for your conclusions.  I think you exaggerate the opinions of those who don't think beings in the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms will be in 24x7 misery (as in conscious of, thinking of nothing but, unceasing "woe is me").  Were that the case, they would be useless, even as servants.  On the other hand, I haven't heard the same people you've heard, so I have no idea what their wording and arguments were, let alone their thoughts.

I've never heard anyone disagree with the idea that the most happiness to be found is in the highest glory.  If we want to get into semantics, we can define any and all "happiness" as belonging only to those in that glory and anyone who doesn't live that way gets 0% happiness, in which case, maybe "content" is a better word for those in lower kingdoms.  (I certainly know a fair number of people who are content with "enough" and have no motivation to try harder in order to get more of anything, despite knowing there's more available and that more effort is how you get it.)

I do think there is logic and probably truth to the idea that those who prefer a lesser law (refuse to live a higher law?) would be more miserable (shall we try it that way?) being forced (were it even possible) to live the celestial law or even in the constant presence of celestial beings than being allowed to live the lesser law they choose to live of their own free will.  Were they willingly living the law, then they would be happy, but to constantly see it while refusing to live it sure sounds worse to me than to put it out of sight and out of mind (as it were).

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12 minutes ago, zil said:

I think you exaggerate the opinions of those who don't think beings in the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms will be in 24x7 misery (as in conscious of, thinking of nothing but, unceasing "woe is me"). 

It isn't the necessarily the opinions of those stating such things that concerns me. It is the conclusions that might be drawn by those struggling. If someone who is stalwart and faithful views the telestial kingdom as a happy, good end it's one thing. If someone who's headed there does it's something else.

14 minutes ago, zil said:

On the other hand, I haven't heard the same people you've heard, so I have no idea what their wording and arguments were, let alone their thoughts.

Well...you sort of did. I quoted one that began this discussion. ;)

Here's another:

 

16 minutes ago, zil said:

I do think there is logic and probably truth to the idea that those who prefer a lesser law (refuse to live a higher law?) would be more miserable (shall we try it that way?) being forced (were it even possible) to live the celestial law or even in the constant presence of celestial beings than being allowed to live the lesser law they choose to live of their own free will.  Were they willingly living the law, then they would be happy, but to constantly see it while refusing to live it sure sounds worse to me than to put it out of sight and out of mind (as it were).

The idea of forcing someone to live the Celestial law who isn't a Celestial person doesn't make sense as a premise in the first place (which you allude to with your parenthetical, "were it even possible"). Like saying a creature without the ability to fly wouldn't enjoy being forced to fly. A) The point is moot because the ability isn't there. B) If the ability was there then they might actually enjoy it.

But the entire idea fails from the start. You cannot "force" someone to be something they are not. That was Satan's lie from the start. That doesn't argue for the idea that they are or are not happy being what they are. They simply are what they are and don't have the ability to be something greater.

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3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

They simply are what they are and don't have the ability to be something greater.

That.  And, frankly, this is what I think will be the truth of the whole thing.  Perhaps we should say people in the terrestrial and telestial will think they're happy because they don't know the true meaning of the word.  They'll be where they choose to be, and they'll be content with it, even though it won't be nearly so great as they seem to think it is?

And I agree, we should be very careful not to lead people to conclude that some other kingdom is "good enough"; we should always encourage diligence in striving for the celestial kingdom, especially since we've been promised that it's available to all on the specified conditions.

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12 minutes ago, zil said:

Perhaps we should say people in the terrestrial and telestial will think they're happy because they don't know the true meaning of the word.  They'll be where they choose to be, and they'll be content with it, even though it won't be nearly so great as they seem to think it is?

I'm not sure this idea fits in with: "Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness." 2 Nephi 9:14 and similar scriptures. (Alma 5:18, Alma 11:43, etc)

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not sure this idea fits in with: "Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness." 2 Nephi 9:14 and similar scriptures. (Alma 5:18, Alma 11:43, etc)

Mormon 9:3-4 says, "Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell."

I think the phrase, "ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God... than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell" can be rephrased as a corollary, "ye would be happier to dwell with the damned souls in hell than to dwell with a holy and just God."

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16 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Resurrecting (pun intended) a really old thread here...

I think D&C 88 makes it clear that our bodies will differ based on the kingdom where we are to be assigned. (Specifically, vs 28) https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/88.17-31?lang=eng#p16)

That being said, I do not understand how this will work with judgment being after the resurrection.

Thoughts?

 

It is my personal impression that when we come before G-d at what is called the final judgment it is not for G-d to force anything upon us – contrary to our agency that he has given us from the beginning but to make sure we have completed all that must be done to validate and complete the exercise of our agency.

 

The Traveler

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