Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[Seminarysnoozer]

But is there also not a special kind of joy that comes while you're doing the work that is separate and distinct from the satisfaction you get when the job is actually "done" or the eager anticipation of knowing you are about to embark on a great endeavor? Maybe that's how God can have a "fulness" of joy--because in His state of being, His work is always simultaneously about to begin, in progress, and done.

Thanks.

Even from a scientific standpoint,

Work = Fd,

F = mA(acceleration)

In physics, acceleration is the rate at which the velocity of a body changes with time.

We also believe in an emotional God, joy being one of those emotions. From a purely scientific standpoint, joy requires time as well. Emotion is a conscious mental reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling usually directed toward a specific object and typically accompanied by physiological and behavioral changes in the body.

I believe in a God that answers prayers as well. He can't answer the prayer without hearing it first. There are some prayers I have not yet given. If He has already answered them then by definition He is not answering my prayer but the foreknowledge of my prayer. I don't believe in such an impersonal, robotic God. I believe in a social God and tend to think that is glory specifically is dependent on love and social interaction such as bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. If His glory is dependent, at least in part, by His social interaction with us and we experience the passage of time, then He too must experience the passage of time. I realize there are many theories out there, as Traveler has expressed but these are theories of man. When God appeared to Joseph Smith, He spoke and then Christ spoke .... they didn't speak all at the same time in one instant. So, even if one says that there is no passage of time for God, LDS would have to believe that somehow God could jump in and out of that timeframe but this is an impossibility because when He is in the state of timelessness He would be constantly jumping out of it as there is no specific point in time to be jumping out of. He would have to be always and continuously jumping in and out of time and therefore never really staying in that state.

[Traveler]

I think we are kidding ourselves in thinking that G-d changes things - especially the order and laws that govern the universe (what is happening) because we are praying for something. (see Mattt 6:8) I believe the reason that we pray is to change ourselves to draw closer to G-d and what he already has made available for those that honor and keep covenants.

I do not think the carnal - natural man - concept of praying for answers works with any more consistency than a broken immovable clock - which is spot on at least two times a day. In fact - I think the main reason to pray is to change the things we pray about (which our Father already knows anyway) and why we pray about such things.

For the carnal - natural man - prayer is all about answers of magical miracles of change and if magical changes do not happen they get upset and think G-d has abandoned them. But for a saint of G-d, prayers is about a change of their heart and learning to be thankful for what G-d is already doing and in recognizing what G-d is already providing (answering) for them.

The Traveler

Edited February 28, 2013 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't think I have ever heard anyone pray to "change the order and laws that govern the universe". I've heard people pray for rain, or that their health improves and even that they find something they have lost, or that they have the power to translate ancient writings and even know which church is true, etc. But none of those kinds of things are asking God to "change the order and laws that govern the universe."

[Just_A_Guy]

I realize there are many theories out there, as Traveler has expressed but these are theories of man. When God appeared to Joseph Smith, He spoke and then Christ spoke .... they didn't speak all at the same time in one instant. So, even if one says that there is no passage of time for God, LDS would have to believe that somehow God could jump in and out of that timeframe but this is an impossibility because when He is in the state of timelessness He would be constantly jumping out of it as there is no specific point in time to be jumping out of. He would have to be always and continuously jumping in and out of time and therefore never really staying in that state.

One eternal now.

All things past present and future continually before him.

Are my attempts to reconcile these statements to the conundrum of the OP, a "theory of man"? Sure. But I would respectfully note that your attempts to make to reconcile those statements to the idea of a god who is bound by linear time, are similarly "theories of men" (unless, of course, you are a female!). The simple truth is, we're both trying to square a circle here.

Speculation is fun, but let's not pretend we "know" what we're dealing with here. Even secular science is finding that notions of time, space, and "existence" itself can get very fuzzy--time travel may well be a possibility, and it seems apparent that (at least subatomic level) particles are capable of being everywhere and nowhere, and even popping in and out of existence as we know it. I'm just not comfortable trying to bind God to "laws of nature" that even the secularists don't acknowledge as universally applicable.

[Seminarysnoozer]

One eternal now.

All things past present and future continually before him.

Are my attempts to reconcile these statements to the conundrum of the OP, a "theory of man"? Sure. But I would respectfully note that your attempts to make to reconcile those statements to the idea of a god who is bound by linear time, are similarly "theories of men" (unless, of course, you are a female!). The simple truth is, we're both trying to square a circle here.

Speculation is fun, but let's not pretend we "know" what we're dealing with here. Even secular science is finding that notions of time, space, and "existence" itself can get very fuzzy--time travel may well be a possibility, and it seems apparent that (at least subatomic level) particles are capable of being everywhere and nowhere, and even popping in and out of existence as we know it. I'm just not comfortable trying to bind God to "laws of nature" that even the secularists don't acknowledge as universally applicable.

I certainly wasn't trying to "bind God to laws of nature" but to His words. I think your perception is that linear time is "binding" where I have been trying to express that it is His glory to bring things to pass. If that is the nature of His work and glory, to bring those things to pass, then they certainly aren't binding. I think you come at it with the assumption that that is binding and not considering the potential value in knowing something is in the past such as knowing that a job has been done. One cannot (by any law of any sort) say that something has been done unless there is a potential for past tense. The timeless God does not have that option as nothing would be past tense. To me that is more binding, especially when the words we have to understand Gods nature say that that feature is important to His work and glory.

The importance of this world is to complete certain things; to receive a body and to see if we will do the things we are asked to do. This is not something I am making up, this is our gospel. Found in Gospel Principles and in Abraham 3: " 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever."

Keeping the second estate results in added glory beyond those that don't keep the second estate. And keeping the second estate requires doing all things that we are commanded to do. It is in the completing of the task in which the glory comes, not before.

Would God be the only one who is timeless in your view? What about all the people who in this life will make it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, why are they not timeless now?

Timelessness is a man-made concept and is not part of our gospel. It comes from an over interpretation of statements but as a result takes away accomplishment as nothing is ever done in a timeless (make believe) world.

[rameumptom]

I don't think you will find the term "eternal now" in the scriptures. Elder Maxwell did use it in his writings.

There are philosophical issues that arise with using this concept. If all things are immediately before God, including future things in their final state, then there is no cause and effect. I receive the final judgment at the exact same time I am born, in the premortal existence, or deciding whether to join the Church or not. There is a difference between libertarian free will, having a real and full choice in this life, and a compatibilist free will that gives us limited agency and choice, because there is no real cause and effect brought about by my choices. No, God is not forcing anything on me, but it is already decided before I even come here. God could have made only those who would be exalted with such a foreknowledge, preventing those who would end up suffering perdition and hell.

So, there are issues that really make this a head-spinner. What Elder Maxwell taught answers some questions, but creates more questions and issues. We will likely have to wait until the next life to see just how it all works.

[Traveler]

I don't think you will find the term "eternal now" in the scriptures. Elder Maxwell did use it in his writings.

There are philosophical issues that arise with using this concept. If all things are immediately before God, including future things in their final state, then there is no cause and effect. I receive the final judgment at the exact same time I am born, in the premortal existence, or deciding whether to join the Church or not. There is a difference between libertarian free will, having a real and full choice in this life, and a compatibilist free will that gives us limited agency and choice, because there is no real cause and effect brought about by my choices. No, God is not forcing anything on me, but it is already decided before I even come here. God could have made only those who would be exalted with such a foreknowledge, preventing those who would end up suffering perdition and hell.

So, there are issues that really make this a head-spinner. What Elder Maxwell taught answers some questions, but creates more questions and issues. We will likely have to wait until the next life to see just how it all works.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. If there is something possible that we do not understand - how can we in any way exercise choice or will covering that possibility? We most certainly do not understand our "eternal" possibility while living a mortal existence. Therefore, how can there be any "real" choice or real agency concerning anything associated with our eternal possibilities?

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Traveler, we do not make any decisions in this life based on 100% knowledge or certainty. We get up in the morning, because we believe the sun will rise. That is our agency: to believe the sun will rise because of past experience, and make decisions from the amount of information we have.

We experience the Holy Ghost and then act with faith, based upon the experience we have. In this life, we walk by faith. But Lectures on Faith also tells us that God works by faith also. Yet, does one have/use faith, if he knows all things past, present AND future?

What is there to choice, if the choice is always perfectly laid out before us? If we perfectly know the future, then what decision is there to make, as the future is already determined?

Again, this is deep philosophy, of which I'm still an amateur compared to people like James Faulconer, Joseph Spencer and Adam Miller in the LDS Church, and of many outside the Church.

[Traveler]

Traveler, we do not make any decisions in this life based on 100% knowledge or certainty.

Then it is not a 100% choice.

We get up in the morning, because we believe the sun will rise. That is our agency: to believe the sun will rise because of past experience, and make decisions from the amount of information we have.

How is thinking the sun will rise our agency? How is that any different that someone that looses their life's saving in Vegas? Thinking they will win? Knowing the future of things gives G-d a great advantage in choices. As I try to understand - it appears to me we can make guesses - even guesses based on faith but never-the-less guesses. But I believe a guess is quite different than a choice.

Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." So my question (tell me what you think - because I have read your post and believe you to be a rather deep thinker) - I can understand that we can be forgiven if we make a bad guess but I do not see why we would be forgiven for making a bad choice?

We experience the Holy Ghost and then act with faith, based upon the experience we have. In this life, we walk by faith. But Lectures on Faith also tells us that God works by faith also. Yet, does one have/use faith, if he knows all things past, present AND future?

What is there to choice, if the choice is always perfectly laid out before us? If we perfectly know the future, then what decision is there to make, as the future is already determined?

I think that is the only time we actually can make a 100% choice - when we know 100% what the choice is. Are you implying that if we knew 100% what an evil choice is - no one would choose evil? - Perhaps but is that not what Satan has done? Is that not the reason he cannot be forgiven?

Again, this is deep philosophy, of which I'm still an amateur compared to people like James Faulconer, Joseph Spencer and Adam Miller in the LDS Church, and of many outside the Church.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

I believe Pres Kimball, in Miracle of Forgiveness, noted that those Christ prayed to have forgiven were the Roman Soldiers, because they were mocking, beating and crucifying him in ignorance.

Scriptures tell us that we are not accountable for things we are ignorant of, especially if that ignorance is not of our own accord. So, little children are saved in Christ, even though they can do terrible things out of ignorance.

Choice is different than a guess. Choice is when there is a decision to be made between two or more things. We choose good or evil (or a wide swathe of levels in between the two absolutes). Some of what we do is out of ignorance, but much of the evil is done out of selfishness, disregard toward God and others, or laziness. Such are choices. We choose to serve others, or watch television. We choose to read our scriptures or play video games. We choose eternal marriage, earthly marriage, or sleeping around. We choose between political parties, which God to worship (or not), what to eat (healthy or not).

These are different than guessing which color/number the little roulette ball is going to land on. With the roulette ball, it is all guessing, based upon odds (you can bet which color, odds/evens, or a specific number). However, deciding what to eat for breakfast is not a crap shoot (which is also a guessing game of luck).

It is about the evidence we have available to make a decision. Some things we have lots of evidence, while other things we have few facts. General Colin Powell noted that in war, a general usually had to make a decision based upon having 40% of the information. It is less than half, but still much more than nothing.

If God knows all things, including the future, then we do not have a libertarian free will ability to choose, as the choices are already made and cannot be changed. So, we either have a limited agency based upon compatibilism (too complicated to adequately describe here, see the links I gave earlier), or God does not perfectly know the future(s), but is the Grand Master chess player, who can foresee all the potential moves of every player involved in the game.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Then it is not a 100% choice.

How is thinking the sun will rise our agency? How is that any different that someone that looses their life's saving in Vegas? Thinking they will win? Knowing the future of things gives G-d a great advantage in choices. As I try to understand - it appears to me we can make guesses - even guesses based on faith but never-the-less guesses. But I believe a guess is quite different than a choice.

Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." So my question (tell me what you think - because I have read your post and believe you to be a rather deep thinker) - I can understand that we can be forgiven if we make a bad guess but I do not see why we would be forgiven for making a bad choice?

I think that is the only time we actually can make a 100% choice - when we know 100% what the choice is. Are you implying that if we knew 100% what an evil choice is - no one would choose evil? - Perhaps but is that not what Satan has done? Is that not the reason he cannot be forgiven?

The Traveler

The choices we make are not necessarily so we obtain some given response as a result of that choice and that is all that is achieved. The choices made in this life are to be used as a reflection of where our heart's desire is. God judges our intentions, the inner man, based on these choices and the relative stewardship we have been given so that we can be judged and placed in the Kingdom of our respective level of glory. There are people who do good in this life and all they get in return is persecution and trouble, at least the immediate result. But in the end all that work will not be in vain as God will judge us based in desires of the heart and whether our eye is single to the glory of God.

Job could have easily said to himself, 'well doing all this good has only resulted in me losing my health, my family and all my possessions.' But the test is not to make a choice in which we realize the full extent of our decision, we already did that. That is what happened in the first estate test. Now it is a test to see if we will carry out what we are asked to do based in spiritual influence and ability to listen to that influence, not necessarily in logical reasoning.

I think one of the ways to come to grips with this issue is realizing that learning by faith and vicariously is God's way. We can learn and grow a lot faster and therefore capable of a lot more happiness when the glory of good acts is received via faith and vicarious action. For example, Jesus glorified God by His actions. How does that glorify God? Because our God is one that can spiritually feel and experience the actions of others. Jesus can also, feel and therefore pay for the sins of another. If that is a characteristic of Godliness, then I can see why we are being screened for such an ability and not just logical deduction.

[SF_Giants66]

This is kind of a tough one because you can't really have it both ways.

If god is omniscient, where we go after mortal life has already been pre-determined for us and cannot be changed.

Free will would require people to act on their own behalf without influences outside of it. Every action is result of a prior action, so will is never truly free. If we didn't believe in certain eternal consequences for certain things, would it change how we do things?

If the desire for the reward of heaven or the fear of hell is in indicator in our choices, it wasn't a choice made on free will.

[Seminarysnoozer]

This is kind of a tough one because you can't really have it both ways.

If god is omniscient, where we go after mortal life has already been pre-determined for us and cannot be changed.

Free will would require people to act on their own behalf without influences outside of it. Every action is result of a prior action, so will is never truly free. If we didn't believe in certain eternal consequences for certain things, would it change how we do things?

If the desire for the reward of heaven or the fear of hell is in indicator in our choices, it wasn't a choice made on free will.

You left out another choice, it is not just "reward of heaven or the fear of hell". It isn't based in a desire for a "reward" but having an eye single to the glory of God. When one's eye is single to the glory of God it is not based in reward or fear. Even after that, God is the judge of desires of the heart. Man has a hard time seeing what that truly is as we cannot account for all the variables. When that is boiled down to our true desire (again something only God can see), that set of desires is only from our self and not some outside source and therefore it is our free will.

[Zufo]

God asked for a plan in the pre-mortal existence and one of the plans would have included knowing every outcome. This was an option but was rejected. When the plan to allow free will was chosen it required the Redeemer and thus the plan of salvation came to be. God's choice to allow us the right to choose meant He chose to not know. Freewill in action. Still, I have no doubt that He knows the millions of outcomes I could choose and does His best to entice me to make the right choices so I end up where He knows I want to be. 

Rather than limit God's powers in anyway, freewill adds another layer to help us understand His glory: all-loving. 

[Ironhold]

The way I see it, God has what is essentially the biggest probability matrix in existence. 

God can see what people *might* do in a given situation, size up the consequences, and make plans accordingly. 

[wenglund]

On 2/25/2013 at 0:33 PM, Anddenex said:

The non-believer side is an argument from ignorance. A person knowing all, seeing all, doesn't dictate what a person chooses to do, the choice is simply known -- moral agency is not inhibited.

A parent, sticks two toys in front of a child. The parent already knows which toy the child will grab, assuming the parent only allows the child to pick one toy. Does the knowledge of the parent influence or inhibit the choice or agency of the child to choose his/her favorite toy?

The answer is no. Knowledge does not interfere with agency, it simply provides knowledge, while the person maintains their agency.

God's foreknowledge is in accordance with agency, it does not determine the agency of another person.

Exactly!

The same point can be made by reversing the timeline. Having  knowledge of what choices will be made in the future doesn't negate free will any more than knowing what choices were made in the past does the same.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

Time is only a thing for mortals. There is no time in eternity.

[Rob Osborn]

A couple of points with logic and it settles all-

Does God make decisions? Does he make choices? If we answer "yes", which is only logical, it states two important facts about God and eternity. They are-

1. A God who makes decisions means multiple options exist for future events of which God will decide which path to choose. This means God cannot know all things in the future about us or all things. The proof here is that if God did know all things before they happened, then he cannot choose any alternate path but the one and only perfect domino effect and he would only be doing what was already perfectly scripted.

2. Because God must make decisions, it means time, as measured by sequence of events must exist and God himself is not outside of that. The proof here is that if God was outside of this sequence of events (time as measured by cause and effect in sequence) then God would know everything already and thus he wouldnt be capable of making decisions/choices as they would already exist as already happened.

This logical conclusion therefore must posit that God only knows all that is "possible" for him to know and with that knowledge he can make decisions and choices that change or influence present linear time that then effect future possibilities. God exists in linear present time just as us, he just doesnt age like us.  If Gods work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man it means his "work" is done in present linear time, where he himself exists that influence and effect the future for ours and his future glory.

Time travel itself either into a real past or a real future while the present still exists is nonsense. It defies all logic and common sense and would set up the paradox of having the same matter exist in more than one location at the same time. Besides that, it would once again show that God wouldnt be able to make decisions because the cause and effect has already happened and Gods "work" would be just an allusion for God himself.

[CV75]

On 2/25/2013 at 1:42 PM, kstevens67 said:

Just a couple thoughts I decided to throw out there. Does the LDS hold a certain view or is this kind of left open to the individual?

For the LDS, power and knowledge are attributes of intelligence, so omnipotence and omniscience are only as relative as the intelligences involved (Abraham 3:19).

Also for the LDS, as long as there is a probation, by definition, there is no known outcome until it happens (Abraham 3:25); judgement occurs only after all the facts are in (that is why it is called the “Last Day”). And from the same verse, as long as there is an opportunity to do “all things,” the tested are just as omnipotent as the Tester (which is the function of grace operating between the Greatest and His lesser stars).

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

A couple of points with logic and it settles all-

Does God make decisions? Does he make choices? If we answer "yes", which is only logical, it states two important facts about God and eternity. They are-

1. A God who makes decisions means multiple options exist for future events of which God will decide which path to choose. This means God cannot know all things in the future about us or all things. The proof here is that if God did know all things before they happened, then he cannot choose any alternate path but the one and only perfect domino effect and he would only be doing what was already perfectly scripted.

2. Because God must make decisions, it means time, as measured by sequence of events must exist and God himself is not outside of that. The proof here is that if God was outside of this sequence of events (time as measured by cause and effect in sequence) then God would know everything already and thus he wouldnt be capable of making decisions/choices as they would already exist as already happened.

This logical conclusion therefore must posit that God only knows all that is "possible" for him to know and with that knowledge he can make decisions and choices that change or influence present linear time that then effect future possibilities. God exists in linear present time just as us, he just doesnt age like us.  If Gods work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man it means his "work" is done in present linear time, where he himself exists that influence and effect the future for ours and his future glory.

Time travel itself either into a real past or a real future while the present still exists is nonsense. It defies all logic and common sense and would set up the paradox of having the same matter exist in more than one location at the same time. Besides that, it would once again show that God wouldnt be able to make decisions because the cause and effect has already happened and Gods "work" would be just an allusion for God himself.

I would say that God doesn't waste time envisioning all the possibilities; He leaves that up to us (even though He commands we keep our eye single to Him) and intervenes to help us whenever possible as He foresees the logical conclusion of our real-time choices.

I would also say that God lives in an eternity that is ordered with a time component (as in a house of order) and that He allows our agency, in conjunction with His administration of eternal laws and their consequences, to operate freely. This is why our own laws don't work well in time or eternity (Isaiah 50:11).

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by CV75

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, CV75 said:

I would say that God doesn't waste time envisioning all the possibilities; He leaves that up to us (even though He commands we keep our eye single to Him) and intervenes to help us whenever possible as He foresees the logical conclusion of our real-time choices.

I would also say that God lives in an eternity that is ordered with a time component (as in a house of order) and that He allows our agency, in conjunction with His administration of eternal laws and their consequences, to operate freely. This is why our own laws don't work well in time or eternity (Isaiah 50:11).

 

The outcome of G-d’s plan was 100% completely known by G-d before any mortal (Adam & Eve) took a single step on earth.

I will quote form a post I already provided in this thread:

Quote

As to the question put forward in this thread; there are some very important “things” or elements of G-d’s plan that we must deal with. Most Christians believe as doctrine that each individual man was created from nothing and placed into G-d’s fully predetermined, functioning and operating plan with no choice and no knowledge of what any particular individual is “getting into”. There is no way such a model can preserve individual free will. Unless one is willing to lie to themselves and everyone else about exactly what freewill means, entails and is.

If we consider any paradigm that choice is made with knowledge between birth and death, we are forced into a corner in which there is no free will or agency in mortality.  If we made choices – we did so before birth.  In this life, we guess because we do not know, with impunity, the future.  Guessing is not free will or agency – it is called a guess because that is what it is - Even a guess made with faith.  We maintain agency in this life only because of our knowledge and choices made before we were born.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

In my opinion, the OP presented a dilemma that is only applicable to the Ex Nihilo teaching.  The LDS teaching that WE CHOSE to follow the Plan of Salvation changes everything.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The outcome of G-d’s plan was 100% completely known by G-d before any mortal (Adam & Eve) took a single step on earth.

I will quote form a post I already provided in this thread:

If we consider any paradigm that choice is made with knowledge between birth and death, we are forced into a corner in which there is no free will or agency in mortality.  If we made choices – we did so before birth.  In this life, we guess because we do not know, with impunity, the future.  Guessing is not free will or agency – it is called a guess because that is what it is - Even a guess made with faith.  We maintain agency in this life only because of our knowledge and choices made before we were born.

The Traveler

As the perfect plan, it has the perfect outcome, and God certainly knows what that is. But is nevertheless a plan which must be followed to be realized, and this can play out differently depending on one's ongoing development of faith and obedience.

I agree that guessing is not an example of using agency, though I suppose choosing to guess is. But I do not see applying faith as guessing; no guess is made with faith. Alma described faith as “not a perfect knowledge,” which I take to be a kind of knowledge, specifically an incipient knowledge granted by virtue of the light of Christ. It helps us recognize choices, even if we may not fully articulate them, in the same way that it provides an assurance of things hoped for (which are true) and the evidence of things not seen which are true as we move and act according to our wills.

I believe we made choices before birth, and we chose to be tested in this second estate. I think one of the blessings we have from those pre-mortal choices is not only a body in this life, but a continued sense of or familiarity with the light of Christ which we enjoyed from before the beginning of the foundations of the world, along with other spiritual gifts that we were to continue to develop more fully in a physical world. I think our knowledge and choice from the pre-existence are an advantage in this world, just as any principle of intelligence we gain in this life gives us an advantage in the world to come.

Edited February 27, 2017 by CV75

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, CV75 said:

As the perfect plan, it has the perfect outcome, and God certainly knows what that is. But is nevertheless a plan which must be followed to be realized, and this can play out differently depending on one's ongoing development of faith and obedience.

I agree that guessing is not an example of using agency, though I suppose choosing to guess is. But I do not see applying faith as guessing; no guess is made with faith. Alma described faith as “not a perfect knowledge,” which I take to be a kind of knowledge, specifically an incipient knowledge granted by virtue of the light of Christ. It helps us recognize choices, even if we may not fully articulate them, in the same way that it provides an assurance of things hoped for (which are true) and the evidence of things not seen which are true as we move and act according to our wills.

I believe we made choices before birth, and we chose to be tested in this second estate. I think one of the blessings we have from those pre-mortal choices is not only a body in this life, but a continued sense of or familiarity with the light of Christ which we enjoyed from before the beginning of the foundations of the world, along with other spiritual gifts that we were to continue to develop more fully in a physical world. I think our knowledge and choice from the pre-existence are an advantage in this world, just as any principle of intelligence we gain in this life gives us an advantage in the world to come.

 

I do not have access to any revelation that is not available to ever other saint in these last days – but this is my thinking and what I accept on faith as a mortal.  I believe that all things are known to G-d and were inclusive to his plan.  Nothing is going to happen or even can happen that could frustrate his plan.  Though we have agency – that agency allows us to act (choose) in the sphere in which we are “placed”.  For me this means that we can only make choices in this life that were already known and the outcome accounted for – I speculate that the outcome is already known.

Since all things are known to G-d; it is my speculation that this knowledge is not temporal to G-d.  Meaning that he knew, with impunity in the pre-existence all things concerning us and our choices in mortality.   It is my faith and belief in G-d that as we contemplated our earthly experience that he would allow us to know, as He did, all things pertaining to our mortal experience.  I cannot think of a single reason why we would not have access to any knowledge available to him.  To me, such access to his knowledge is in part what it means to be “in his presents”.

Thus, I believe we made choices in our pre-existence with full knowledge of the consequences and outcomes.   Keep in mind, that in this life our understanding of consequences and outcomes are at best a shadow of what will be viewed primarily through faith.  Sometimes I think that outcome and knowledge of this life  is currently missing so we do not understand the atonement and the power of the atonement to change the consequences and outcomes of sin. 

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

48 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I do not have access to any revelation that is not available to ever other saint in these last days – but this is my thinking and what I accept on faith as a mortal.  I believe that all things are known to G-d and were inclusive to his plan.  Nothing is going to happen or even can happen that could frustrate his plan.  Though we have agency – that agency allows us to act (choose) in the sphere in which we are “placed”.  For me this means that we can only make choices in this life that were already known and the outcome accounted for – I speculate that the outcome is already known.

Since all things are known to G-d; it is my speculation that this knowledge is not temporal to G-d.  Meaning that he knew, with impunity in the pre-existence all things concerning us and our choices in mortality.   It is my faith and belief in G-d that as we contemplated our earthly experience that he would allow us to know, as He did, all things pertaining to our mortal experience.  I cannot think of a single reason why we would not have access to any knowledge available to him.  To me, such access to his knowledge is in part what it means to be “in his presents”.

Thus, I believe we made choices in our pre-existence with full knowledge of the consequences and outcomes.   Keep in mind, that in this life our understanding of consequences and outcomes are at best a shadow of what will be viewed primarily through faith.  Sometimes I think that outcome and knowledge of this life  is currently missing so we do not understand the atonement and the power of the atonement to change the consequences and outcomes of sin. 

 

The Traveler

Thank you for sharing these ideas.

I believe that as long as we really don’t understand what it means to be all-knowing or all-powerful, we can say that God is omniscient and omnipotent enough to author and orchestrate the plan of happiness, or that He is omniscient and omnipotent compared to us. I also think that omniscience and omnipotence apply only to those things that can be known or done according to eternal law. One law is that knowledge follows faith. I see foreknowledge as a synonym for faith, since the object hasn’t yet been realized.

Terms like plan and probation to me indicate that the outcome is not known ahead of time. In the Creation for example, God saw that certain actions were followed and pronounced them good. He has perfect faith in His Son, and in us to choose His Son, and that is His exercise of agency on His side of equation. The Atonement guarantees a favorable outcome for the faithful, which we certainly were in the first estate, and intended to continue to be in our probation, and which we plan and try to be in this estate. Because of this guarantee, the plan cannot be frustrated.

I think that His status as the Star “more intelligent than they all” is indicative that we could not know all things He knew pertaining to our mortal experience, but that we had enough knowledge, and enough faith in Christ, to come. That we were in His presence without a body is the most fundamental barrier limiting our ability to know all things in mortality. And to physically be in His presence in the resurrection is only the beginning of knowing what He knows. Of course we have a taste of that spiritually as we advance from grace to grace during our mortal probation.

I agree we made choices in our pre-existence based on the knowledge available and the faith we developed. I think that our faith in and appreciation of the Atonement, both then and now, informs our understanding of eternal law, including agency (and the outcomes or consequences thereof), knowledge, repentance, and the promised victory over sin and death.