True Doctrine Understood

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you. Quick Google search for "The Character House" didn't pull anything up for me. What is this metaphor?

Ralph Moody wrote an autobiographical series called "Little Britches".  The first book was of his life on a farm working with his father, Charlie Moody, as well as other good male role models in the arid climate of Denver Colorado.  I'll try to summarize as best I can, but I highly recommend reading this book as a family -- especially if you have sons.

He told of the one time he lied to his parents.  There was a punishment involved.  But his father took him aside and told him this analogy.

Quote

Your character is like a house.  It has wood all throughout that provides protection from the sun, rain, wind, and snow.

As it gets cold and a man runs out of wood to burn, he may be tempted to take some wood from the house and burn it for warmth.  It will keep him warm for a short time.  And probably a single piece of wood from the house may not cause the house to fall.  But with more and more pieces missing from the house, the less protection the house provides and eventually he'll pull that one piece of wood that will cause the house to collapse all around him.

 

[Anddenex]

11 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I think the essential idea contained in Alma 31:5 is that the preaching of the word has a powerful effect on the minds of the people, and the effect it has is a tendency to lead the people to do that which was just.

Both common sense and the weight of scriptural evidence do not seem to support this proposition.

The common sense view is that it is not the preaching of the word which has a powerful effect on the minds of the people, it is their acceptance of, adherence to, and application of, the word that has the powerful effect, not the preaching of it. History is very clear in showing that of all those who hear the word, only a tiny percentage accept, adhere and apply it, and for that tiny percentage, yes, the preaching of the word bring about a powerful effect on their minds, but for the vast majority, the preaching either has no effect, or ill effects.

This is what Christ said would be the effect of His gospel and His preaching:

(New Testament | Matthew 10:34 - 35)

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

 

Consider the following scriptural examples:

This is how the Pharisees reacted to the preaching of the word by the greatest Preacher ever

 (New Testament | Matthew 12:14)

14  ¶ Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

 

(New Testament | Matthew 27:20 - 25)

 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

21  The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you?  They said, Barabbas.

22  Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?  They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

23  And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done?  But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

24  ¶ When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25  Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

 

Herod’s reaction to the preaching of the word by John

 (New Testament | Matthew 14:1 - 10)

 3  ¶ For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.

4  For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.

10  And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison.

 

The reaction of the Jews to Paul’s preaching

(New Testament | Acts 17:1 - 5)

NOW when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

2  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

3  Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

4  And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

5  ¶ But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

 

Further Jewish reaction to Paul’s preaching of the word

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 11:24 - 26)

4 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25  Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

 

The reaction of the Lamanites to the efforts of Jacob and others to the preaching of the word

(Book of Mormon | Jacob 7:24)

24  And it came to pass that many means were devised to reclaim and restore the Lamanites to the knowledge of the truth; but it all was vain, for they delighted in wars and bloodshed, and they had an eternal hatred against us, their brethren.  And they sought by the power of their arms to destroy us continually.

 

The reaction of American citizens 172 years ago

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 135:1 - 3)
1  TO seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch.  They were shot in Carthage jail, on the 27th of June, 1844, about five o'clock p.m., by an armed mob—painted black—of from 150 to 200 persons.  Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly, exclaiming: I am a dead man!  Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God!  They were both shot after they were dead, in a brutal manner, and both received four balls.

3  Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.  In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain.  He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord's anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum.  In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

 

In more modern times, we have the persecution of the early Saints, culminating in the extermination order of former Governor Lilburn Boggs and the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum, as examples of the effect that the preaching of the word can have on the minds of the people. Surely, it would not have been necessary for the early Saints to so frequently flee persecution if the effect of the preaching by the missionaries of the time was to bring about a powerful and positive effect in the minds of those who heard the word. In our own time, we have the prohibitions by many countries on the entry of missionaries, most noticeably many middle eastern countries and China, because of a fear by those countries that the preaching of the word will destroy their craft.

 

I think it is safe to conclude that more often than not, the effect of preaching the word is to stir up a vigorous, and usually successful counter-effort by opposing forces, led by the evil one, to negate any beneficial attempts that the preaching might have. This seems to be what happened with Alma and the Zoramites – their preaching, as has happened so many times, in so many places, caused a backlash amongst those who already had a way of life they were comfortable with, and that the devil was very happy for them to continue enjoying.

Keeping in mind the common sense view as stated above, I think a more helpful and more accurate wording of the idea that Alma was trying to express in 31:5 would be

 (Book of Mormon | Alma 31:5)

 And now, as the preaching acceptance and living of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.

I think that the preaching of the word is more likely to have a powerful effect on the minds of the people when those people have already accepted and are living the word. That is when, and among whom, the preaching is likely to have a powerful effect. The preaching of the word is less likely to have a powerful, positive effect when those to whom it is being preached have not already accepted it and are not already living it. The word, when preached with power, to those who have already accepted it, is likely to have a powerful effect on the minds of those who hear it. This idea is supported by your example 4 which states It (the preaching of the word) strengthens members in their efforts to live according to gospel principles. When God’s word is taught with spiritual power, it has a “more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than … anything else” (Alma 31:5). When the word is preached to those who have not yet accepted it, I think the scriptural examples referred to above, and the example of Alma and the Zoramites show what usually happens – a very small minority accept it while the rest rebel against it. This outcome would be consistent with what Christ said, in the verse quoted above:

35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Then you have come to an esoteric "common sense" knowledge that even Church leadership hasn't come to, as they continually express the notion that it does, but you are welcome to believe as you do. The answer is easy for me as to which "common sense" I follow.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Ralph Moody wrote an autobiographical series called "Little Britches".  The first book was of his life on a farm working with his father, Charlie Moody, as well as other good male role models in the arid climate of Denver Colorado.  I'll try to summarize as best I can, but I highly recommend reading this book as a family -- especially if you have sons.

He told of the one time he lied to his parents.  There was a punishment involved.  But his father took him aside and told him this analogy.

 

Thank you. I will have to look into this book.

[CV75]

On 12/10/2016 at 0:27 AM, askandanswer said:

The common sense view is that it is not the preaching of the word which has a powerful effect on the minds of the people, it is their acceptance of, adherence to, and application of, the word that has the powerful effect, not the preaching of it.

“And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.”

I think the operational phrases here are “great tendency to lead,” and “powerful effect upon the minds.”

What is preached is “the word of God” and it has “virtue,” or the power to inspire and draw saving faith. Without that, people cannot accept, adhere to and apply the words of life, and neither can they accept, adhere to and apply that which is not preached.

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent [with apostolic power and authority]? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! …So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:13-17).

[CV75]

On 12/9/2016 at 4:31 AM, askandanswer said:

While not disagreeing with the idea that the preaching of the word can have a powerful positive effect in bringing about positive changes in behavior, Alma 31:5 in no way supports that idea, although that verse is frequently used to support that idea. Consider the following sequence of events.

I think this illustrates the difference between facts and truth. The truth is, those who hearkened to the preaching did not fight against the Nephites and enjoyed positive spiritual effects, as did their preachers and the Nephites. The fact is, only a few hearkened to it with negative temporal results for the faithful. This is often the case, but  does not negate the great tendency or inclination of the preaching of the word to save souls (that is what it was designed to do).

[askandanswer]

On 12/12/2016 at 7:38 AM, CV75 said:

IThis is often the case, but  does not negate the great tendency or inclination of the preaching of the word to save souls (that is what it was designed to do).

Certainly, I agree that there is a close causal connection between the preaching of the word and the saving of souls and the preaching of the word is usually a necessary precondition that must be met for a soul to be saved. However, the sad fact is that the preaching of the word usually has minimal or no effect at all on the minds of the vast majority of those who are exposed to it. I think that most returned missionaries will be able to attest to that. Of all those who they encounter and preach to, how many react to and accept their word in a positive way? How many remember it the next day and think more upon it? Some, but very few. This idea, that only very few will respond favourably to the word is suggested by

(New Testament | Luke 13:23 - 24)

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?  And he said unto them,

24  ¶ Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 3:14)

14  Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:7)

7  And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;

And of course, we have the example of the Saviour. His preaching of the word led to His execution, an action that appeared to be supported by the majority of the people, while only a small minority seem to have accepted and believed what He said. 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Certainly, I agree that there is a close causal connection between the preaching of the word and the saving of souls and the preaching of the word is usually a necessary precondition that must be met for a soul to be saved. However, the sad fact is that the preaching of the word usually has minimal or no effect at all on the minds of the vast majority of those who are exposed to it. I think that most returned missionaries will be able to attest to that. Of all those who they encounter and preach to, how many react to and accept their word in a positive way? How many remember it the next day and think more upon it? Some, but very few. This idea, that only very few will respond favourably to the word is suggested by

 

(New Testament | Luke 13:23 - 24)

 

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?  And he said unto them,

 

24  ¶ Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

 

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 3:14)

 

14  Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

 

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:7)

 

7  And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;

 

And of course, we have the example of the Saviour. His preaching of the word led to His execution, an action that appeared to be supported by the majority of the people, while only a small minority seem to have accepted and believed what He said. 

Another way to look at this is the difference between having “a great tendency to lead” and having an absolute imposition. The word of God does not force or compel, but invites in such a way as to be almost* perfectly successful in drawing the hearts (agency) of the children to God, to some degree, to do that which is just, even if it is merely to bow the knee and confess. The apparent lack of success Jesus had in His mortality is most temporary and is more than offset by His actual accomplishments as “the Word” before and after those 33 years.

I say “almost*” because while some souls can only “abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory,” the truth that every other mind is at least somewhat improved is evidenced by there being kingdoms of glory for “an innumerable company of angels,” and “inhabitants… as innumerable as the stars.” That each higher kingdom “excels in all things the glory of the [lesser], even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion,” is an indicator that perhaps the higher kingdoms have more inhabitants than the lesser! That is certainly the case with the sons of perdition…

I would also say that almost everyone I’ve shared the gospel with, even if they didn’t fully receive it on the terms of Church membership, went away having grown, or with a better tendency to grow, from the experience (even if only to stop fighting with me).

The scriptural accounts seem to record only exceptional cases to teach a principle; the same with parables. To me, the genius of Joseph Smith’s revelations is that they show the love and wisdom, mercy and justice of God with a perspective that transcends a division between sheep and goats. I think this helps us understand how the preaching of the word has a great tendency to lead us to do that which is just.

Edited December 16, 2016 by CV75

[Anddenex]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Another way to look at this is the difference between having “a great tendency to lead” and having an absolute imposition. The word of God does not force or compel, but invites in such a way as to be almost* perfectly successful in drawing the hearts (agency) of the children to God, to some degree, to do that which is just, even if it is merely to bow the knee and confess. The apparent lack of success Jesus had in His mortality is most temporary and is more than offset by His actual accomplishments as “the Word” before and after those 33 years.

I say “almost*” because while some souls can only “abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory,” the truth that every other mind is at least somewhat improved is evidenced by there being kingdoms of glory for “an innumerable company of angels,” and “inhabitants… as innumerable as the stars.” That each higher kingdom “excels in all things the glory of the [lesser], even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion,” is an indicator that perhaps the higher kingdoms have more inhabitants than the lesser! That is certainly the case with the sons of perdition…

I would also say that almost everyone I’ve shared the gospel with, even if they didn’t fully receive it on the terms of Church membership, went away having grown, or with a better tendency to grow, from the experience (even if only to stop fighting with me).

The scriptural accounts seem to record only exceptional cases to teach a principle; the same with parables. To me, the genius of Joseph Smith’s revelations is that they show the love and wisdom, mercy and justice of God with a perspective that transcends a division between sheep and goats. I think this helps us understand how the preaching of the word has a great tendency to lead us to do that which is just.

When I think preaching of the word of God, I think of Enoch and his city. This was accomplished due to the preaching of the word which lead a whole city to do that which was just enough that they were brought back into the presence of God -- a whole city (even teenagers in that city). If not for the preaching of Enoch, his city would have never occurred. If not for the preaching of Ammon and his brethren whole cities would not have been converted and we would not have had the great stories in the Book of Mormon. The Sons of Helaman, none of them died, due to the preaching of their mothers, as they exclaim, "and they rehearsed unto me the words of their mothers, saying: We do not doubt our mothers knew it." How would these sons have performed if not for the preaching of the word from their mothers? Would they have been the just sons they were if not for the preaching of the word from their mothers? No.

Let's look at prophecies of the of Zion, "And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established; thou shalt be far from oppression for thou shalt not fear, and from terror for it shall not come near thee." (3 Nephi 22)

One of Nephi's greatest statements comes from his thoughts toward his father's words, "And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men." What caused Nephi to lead a just life and to be the man he became?

The teaching of the word will lead more people to do justly than any other philosophy.

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

When I think preaching of the word of God, I think of Enoch and his city. This was accomplished due to the preaching of the word which lead a whole city to do that which was just enough that they were brought back into the presence of God -- a whole city (even teenagers in that city). If not for the preaching of Enoch, his city would have never occurred. If not for the preaching of Ammon and his brethren whole cities would not have been converted and we would not have had the great stories in the Book of Mormon. The Sons of Helaman, none of them died, due to the preaching of their mothers, as they exclaim, "and they rehearsed unto me the words of their mothers, saying: We do not doubt our mothers knew it." How would these sons have performed if not for the preaching of the word from their mothers? Would they have been the just sons they were if not for the preaching of the word from their mothers? No.

Let's look at prophecies of the of Zion, "And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established; thou shalt be far from oppression for thou shalt not fear, and from terror for it shall not come near thee." (3 Nephi 22)

One of Nephi's greatest statements comes from his thoughts toward his father's words, "And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men." What caused Nephi to lead a just life and to be the man he became?

The teaching of the word will lead more people to do justly than any other philosophy.

Yes, Nephi "heard all the words" of his father and after was "desirous also" to have his father's knowledge. In this way, his desire -- and I believe even the most wicked have some spark of desire remaining -- allowed him to apply the testimony he had heard. Abraham says that he very actively sought the knowledge of his ancient fathers despite those of more recent generations having fallen away--evidently those who taught him were not of his nearer family. At any rate, this preaching has a more powerful effect on the mind "than the sword, or anything else" that happens to people. I think we see this in the many ways people have endured horrendous abuse and hardship and yet find the spirituality that I believe comes only from the light of Christ which penetrates all things (Viktor Frankl is often used as an example of this).