guaranteed income


Sunday21
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Better idea: fully legalize vandwelling, so anyone can easily support themselves independently without state help on a part-time minimum wage job if it comes to this, without fear of police harassment.  

This is my alternative to any sort of socialist redistributive policy.  

Edited by DoctorLemon
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Guest MormonGator

@Sunday21, remember this: all the money that the government gets come from one source: the citizens of that country. If you want social programs, that's fine-but they can bankrupt a country if you aren't careful. The government can mandate higher taxes, more road tolls, and then even higher taxes. Do you want 75% of your money confiscated by the government? Is that "fair"?

You also have the deeply troubling aspect of someone buying things that you don't agree with. Do you want someone buying weed, porn and whiskey with your money? 

 

 

Edited by MormonGator
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I am not sure about the justification for the program but interestingly our right wing, or some of them, like the program. Maybe the proposed program is cheaper than the current program? Anyway, people are currently on welfare. We support whole towns, well very small towns, in the maritimes. So we are paying for the booze and the ciggies anyway. By the way we are thinking of legalizing pot. Our prime minister is keen. So we live in interesting times!

 

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2 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I am not sure about the justification for the program but interestingly our right wing, or some of them, like the program. Maybe the proposed program is cheaper than the current program? Anyway, people are currently on welfare. We support whole towns, well very small towns, in the maritimes. So we are paying for the booze and the ciggies anyway. By the way we are thinking of legalizing pot. Our prime minister is keen. So we live in interesting times!

 

If you are just shuffling current welfare around then it is hard to say just remember this..

People that don't have to work will not work...  Taxes are generated by people that work.  The smaller the difference between what those that can do nothing and still get what they want and those that have to work to get what they want the greater the number of workers that will become non workers.   If you have an increase in the number of non workers then you have to increase the amount of money you take(tax) from the workers and thereby decrease the difference between the non worker and the worker even more... Thus leading to a repeating cycle of growing numbers of non workers that will break the system

 

 

 

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I guess a couple of countries are thinking of trying some small scale programs. We can see what happens. I think Iceland is planning on trying out a small program on a limited number of people. I wonder what the effects of such a program will be.

If you were guaranteed a very modest income not to work, would you quit work? i would not. I would choose to work. 

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2 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I guess a couple of countries are thinking of trying some small scale programs. We can see what happens. I think Iceland is planning on trying out a small program on a limited number of people. I wonder what the effects of such a program will be.

If you were guaranteed a very modest income not to work, would you quit work? i would not. I would choose to work. 

Until you're getting taxed so much that what you're getting paid to work is about what the government would shell out even if you didn't go to work.

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5 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I guess a couple of countries are thinking of trying some small scale programs. We can see what happens. I think Iceland is planning on trying out a small program on a limited number of people. I wonder what the effects of such a program will be.

If you were guaranteed a very modest income not to work, would you quit work? i would not. I would choose to work. 

This

 

1 minute ago, a mustard seed said:

Until you're getting taxed so much that what you're getting paid to work is about what the government would shell out even if you didn't go to work.

Also don't forget the Law of Supply and Demand... If everyone suddenly has very modest income.. then your very modest housing(or other item)  is going to become scarce... and thus no longer be very modest in cost

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Just now, Sunday21 said:

I wish I could create a poll to ask: if you were offered a very most salary and did not need to work, would you choose to work? I bet everyone would choose to work.

Sunday I really do love how sweet you are. You sound like such a wonderful person. I'm proud to call you a sister in Christ. 

I can assure you with full confidence that many, many people would choose to stay home and watch TV rather than work. 

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12 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I wish I could create a poll to ask: if you were offered a very most salary and did not need to work, would you choose to work? I bet everyone would choose to work.

So you are never planning to retire then?

 

Because that is basically what retired people do... Work enough to not need to work anymore so that they can do whatever hobbies they wish to.

Most people would see this as early retirement and act accordingly

 

Edited by estradling75
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10 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I wish I could create a poll to ask: if you were offered a very most salary and did not need to work, would you choose to work? I bet everyone would choose to work.

I would choose to work (much less), but feel that I am the exception.  

I have friends whom don't HAVE to work (for whatever reason) and frankly I've watch everyone of them decay into a shell of their former selves.  Without the drive to work, each one of them has quit going out, quit being engaged in the community, grown fat on Netflix binges, and become very self-absorbed.   

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35 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

If you were guaranteed a very modest income not to work, would you quit work?

As a wife and mother, i confess yes until my kids were older. Then I would return to work because I like work.

If my husband were offered such an income... no.

It's a nice thought that only those truly incapable of properly working would be supported that way, but as time passed and such things became more set in the public, I see not working "just because" being more socially acceptable.

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Well I was in this situation, of being able to stay home at quite a reasonable standard of living, married to someone who made good money, no kids, no religion so no callings and I went to work, long hours too! I am not so sure if people would leave work. Even Jackie Onassis got a job. A lot of successful people who could quit work, don't. My brother retired from high tech, he has another company now. Hey the Swedes still work!

i plan to work till 70 and then retire to a plethora of church callings. I am sure I will have many callings but in addition, I will go to the family history centre and help people, work in the temple, and drive people to doctor appointments. Visit lonely people in my neighbor hood.

Edited by Sunday21
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1 minute ago, Sunday21 said:

 A lot of successful people who could quit work, don't.

There is your problem...  You are comparing successful people and what they would do... to people who by the very nature of the income program would/are struggling to be successful.. there are going to be some major difference in mindsets between the two group that explain the differences

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26 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I wish I could create a poll to ask: if you were offered a very most salary and did not need to work, would you choose to work? I bet everyone would choose to work.

You'd lose that bet - 100% guaranteed (seriously, everyone?).  You'd be asking the wrong people (unless you mean you want to ask the citizens of your country).  To ask here, is to ask people who have a religious conviction regarding work, self-reliance, and similar principles.

I expect the people who would take the money and run can't be bothered to answer your poll - because it's too much like work.

1 minute ago, Sunday21 said:

Well I was in this situation, of being able to stay home at quite a reasonable standard of living, married to someone who made good money, no kids, no religion so no callings and I went to work, long hours too! I am not so sure if people would leave work. Even Jackie Onassis got a job. A lot of successful people who could quit work, don't. My brother retired fron high tech, he has another company now. Hey the Swedes still work!

Successful people are, by definition, people who work.  People who have been educated in some way by someone regarding the value of work and the possibility of personal improvement.  I think you seriously need to go find yourself some slums, welfare housing (projects), or the like and get yourself a dose of reality.  There is no shortage of people for whom "work" is gaming the welfare system; no shortage of children who have never been taught to work - only to avoid it - never been taught they can accomplish great things and improve their own lot in life through persistent hard work.  They've been taught to rely on handouts, and they'll teach their kids the same things.

Sure, you can find some inspiring documentary about someone who escaped that, but most are either not so fortunate, or can't be bothered.

This kind of program encourages the worst in humans and discourages the best (across the board, among those who take and those who work (and are forced to give, even if they do so cheerfully)).  It is guaranteed to collapse and to be corrupted.  It is guaranteed that demons will profit from it and honest people will be crushed by it.  It's only a question of time.

Want to know how it will end?  Read Faith of the Fallen by Terry Goodkind1 - it's total fiction (fantasy), nothing related to this world, and it's book 6 of 15, and every book is 700+ pages long, and I'm not sure it'll have the same effect (or even be followable) without starting from the beginning (and if you're the one, sorry I can't remember, who doesn't like the violence in the BofM, you won't like this series), but I tell you, that book gives a clearer picture than anything else I know, of what happens when this kind of program is allowed to continue until implosion (which is the only option unless it is stopped and reversed).  It also gives a clear example of what a successful, noble (not royalty-style, but noble) person does in the face of such conditions - including how to use your agency for good even while trapped in what amounts to prison.  Having read that example, I dare you to go into any slum and find someone there doing the same thing - the only thing stopping them is themselves - their conditions may make it hard, but not impossible.  This kind of program beats, brainwashes, and numbs all that is good in a person - unless one has the will to fight it.

Sorry, been there (3 years in Russia, starting 3 months after the USSR collapsed) and they were headed for the same place, and in many ways, already there (and a great many wanted to go back, terrifyingly enough).  It is the antithesis of all that is divine in the human soul.

1 Yeah, OK, on occasion the main character pontificates too much (the author using him to beat his theme into you with a 2x4), but the lesson in this book alone, if you can learn it, is worth the price.  I'm not sure someone who hasn't seen it first hand would recognize the reality of the fictional conditions unless they know to look for them...  (Book 1, should someone wish to invest, is Wizard's First Rule.)

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13 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

You know Swedes work quite hard. They have a strong work ethic. I have had Swedish exchange students and they are keen on their careers. I also know quite a few married women who are married to successful men and these women work, they work hard too!

I know, and I admire that about them.

But it's also socially unacceptable to raise your own kids over there.

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8 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I know, and I admire that about them.

But it's also socially unacceptable to raise your own kids over there.

Do you mean, it is socially unacceptable not to send your children to daycare?

Well, let's try the guaranteed income idea on a small group and see what happens. If Canada does not try, we can look at Iceland. Anyway, I shall read my stack of papers and see what the program with entail for the Canadian situation. At the very least, it will be an interesting experence.

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3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

http://www.basicincomepilot.ca/

We are thinking of trying out a guaranteed income. 

WHat do you think?

I think this is a great way to bankrupt a country.  But aside from that it's not so bad except that it grinds away at the soul of a man to be dependent on others for his livelihood.  That and the recognition that we're expecting to receive something from society without contributing anything to it.  In other circles that's called stealing and is considered dishonest.  But with government, it's... what is it again?

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17 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Do you mean, it is socially unacceptable not to send your children to daycare?

 

Sure. I read a blog about a woman whi was bullied by her neighbors and the government to not stay home with her kids when her husband made sufficient money. Sure, it's anecdotal, but if it represents enough people it's sad the program relies on so many people working to support everyone it threatens personal choices.

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