Post New Testament Christian Writings


kyrie_eleison
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20 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

No Truth is irrational.  All Truth is perfectly reasonable.  Even if your words behind explaining something absolutely fail, all Truth is 100% rational and 100% reasonable simply because it is Truth.  

Your epistemological approaches here are very Catholic-sounding :).  Focused on words two words: "historical", and "intellectual".  LDS epistemology is more tools in the tool box.  For example,  how about learning through doing?  I think you've actually unknowing touched on this- as you've experimented on implementing Christ's words in your life, you've experienced a positive change in your life, giving testimony of the truthfulness of His words.  

Yes. It is not enough to just know the truth. You must also live it.

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A big thing from the you haven't mentioned mentioned yet: have you prayed and asked God directly to testify of what True?

Yes. I walked into a Catholic Church and feel on my knees and told God that I could not believe. But I would give him nine months to guide my heart to learn from him. I allowed myself to be lead by him, I read scriptures, and learned about the Catholic Faith. And I believe he lead me to learn about the post Christian writers to help me understand how the apostles handed down the faith and what structures they established, and how we should understand the sacraments, the Eucharist, the offices of bishops, priest, deacon, and laity.

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Can history prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christ was the Son of God?  Not that there was a dude named Jesus, but that this Jesus was undeniably the Son of God who created the world & saved it & will come again?

It cannot.  

I would suggest that as much as you value history, that you're already using more than that tool to determine Truth.  And that's a good thing!  God gave us many tools for a reason, and testifies through many for a reason!

I agree fully. Faith seeking understanding. There is the initial moment of faith, then it is a matter of seeking to understand the contents of revelation.

God bless,

Daniel

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20 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Taking a slightly different angle here--

I'm a person who loves interfaith dialogue and understanding other faiths.  Not because I'm interested in converting, but because I simply want to learn about my fellow men and respect them.  Hence why I've spent years studying Catholicism, among other faiths.  Likewise I've also studied non-Christian faiths.  All of this studies require me to see through that person's eyes, and to put "me" aside for a minute.  Yes, I may think a person's faith is bunk for reasons XYZ, but that doesn't matter- I'm not here to be convicted to convert to this faith!  Rather, I'm here to understand that person's faith, so my objections should be put aside cause they are just going to get in the way.

My field of study in university was classical studies with a minor in comparative religions, so I understand this completely. :)

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18 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, he sometimes needs to tear down what is already in place.

But in my case, he didn't tear down my spiritual foundation.  He built upon it.  What I had to tear down was my ties to my family, my friends, and my country... a whole chunk of my whole identity at that time that anchored who I am.

The past 2 weeks, for example, is a big part of my heritage - the Sinulog celebrations.  This is so inherently Filipino Catholic and so much a part of me.  I grew up on stories of the miracles of the Sto Nino and the devotions that occur at this time of the year.  Going on my knees asking God if these restored truths are true required extreme courage, almost more than I can bear, because I was fearful of the answer.  I literally couldn't process in my brain how things like the Sinulog devotion that is so much a part of me can reconcile with what God would require of me if the Holy Spirit testifies to me of the truth of the restored Gospel.  So, I didn't want to ask because I couldn't face the answer... until it became such that not asking was killing my spirit and I had no choice but to face the truth.  So it felt like I got ripped from myself.  In addition, I was ostracized by my family and friends and if I would have run for public office then (I'm from a political family), I was 100% sure I would have been rejected by my own hometown.  It took me years to reconnect those pieces of me that got blasted out and see them in their proper perspective.  I still haven't attended a Sinulog festival since then but I'm 100% confident that it would be just like old times... an amazing spiritual experience.  It takes a whole lot of confidence to face my family and friends as a Mormon and feel at peace that everything is going to be just fine.

I think Jesus said, "Whoever does not love me more than his mother or father or brothers or sisters cannot follow me." I certainly feel that tension in my own very secular family.

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46 minutes ago, kyrie_eleison said:

Agreed. I think that we must reject radical skepticism. But the Christian faith is at its root, a historical faith. Questions like "Did Jesus actually exist" or "Did the Apostles or the other Apostolic writers actually write the Gospels", and "Did they provide fairly accurate details about the sayings and words of Jesus", are important for us to be able to answer with the same rigor as we do for other historical texts. Does this prove the contents of Jesus' revelation of himself as the son of God? No. Even the miracles documented in the new testament do not necessarily do this. At some point, we must make an act of faith. Having said that, the historicity of the new testament writings is an important factor in that leap of faith. It creates a groundwork, so to speak. The church calls them the preambles of faith. These preambles are not to be confused with the faith itself, but they should not be overlooked.

Agreed.

All religions have historical backgrounds.

The Jews follow this history until the NT and then they diverge from the Christian faith.  Christians and Jews, therefore, start off with the same history.  Catholics follow this history all the way through to the schism and the East and West diverge and then the protestant movement diverges even more.  Mormons follow this history all the way through to the apostles and then diverge, leaping through to the early 1800's with Joseph Smith's first vision.  In addition, Joseph Smith introduces another testament to Jesus Christ through the history of descendants of Israel in the American continent.

So yes, history is important which is why God saw it fit that these things be written and preserved through the ages so much so that in the first book of the Book of Mormon, you will read of the story of how God commanded Nephi to kill Laban in order to retrieve the historical account of the Israelites that they needed to take with them on their migration that they may have these sacred texts to guide them as they build a life out west.

 

 

46 minutes ago, kyrie_eleison said:

Faith is a gift of God that we cannot earn for ourselves. Catholics are no Pelagians. But we must not confuse that gift of faith with adherence to a specific holy book. I honestly believe that there are Mormons who have true faith. Likely many Mormons. But the faith has an emotional and intellectual component. When I first came to faith in God, my understanding of my Catholic Tradition was extremely limited and in many cases, serious erroneous. We have the hard, but joyful and fruitful task of searching the scriptures and coming to know God more and more.

God bless,

Daniel

Faith is a gift.  Tons of philosophical debates like this one arose from this one sentence so much so that we're already in the year 2017 and Christians still can't agree about it.  The missing precept that is at the heart of this confusion is pre-mortal existence that was restored in these latter-days that puts the concept of creatio ex nihilo and, therefore, original sin, as erroneous. 

So, this is one of those examples where the pre-restoration understanding was limited until the scriptural teaching of Abraham and Moses were restored to bring light to the teachings in the Bible.  Searching and pondering the Holy Bible brought about different interpretations of the text.  The philosophies of the early Church Fathers provided logical support to their own interpretations yet they still ended with different professions of faith.  Hence, the Mormons provide more scriptures to study to provide the 3rd leg of the stool so you can safely sit on it without falling down.  But yes, it does require a deposit of faith that the restored scriptures are true.

 

 

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5 hours ago, kyrie_eleison said:

Agreed. I think that we must reject radical skepticism. But the Christian faith is at its root, a historical faith. Questions like "Did Jesus actually exist" or "Did the Apostles or the other Apostolic writers actually write the Gospels", and "Did they provide fairly accurate details about the sayings and words of Jesus", are important for us to be able to answer with the same rigor as we do for other historical texts. Does this prove the contents of Jesus' revelation of himself as the son of God? No. Even the miracles documented in the new testament do not necessarily do this. At some point, we must make an act of faith. Having said that, the historicity of the new testament writings is an important factor in that leap of faith. It creates a groundwork, so to speak. The church calls them the preambles of faith. These preambles are not to be confused with the faith itself, but they should not be overlooked.

Agreed.  Historical studies can only take us so far.  Much of the Bible is figurative, starting with Genesis.  Other parts history can never prove. 

5 hours ago, kyrie_eleison said:

Faith is a gift of God that we cannot earn for ourselves. 

Agreed.  Though we can ask for more of the gift, cherish it, or reject it.

5 hours ago, kyrie_eleison said:

 I honestly believe that there are Mormons who have true faith. Likely many Mormons. But the faith has an emotional and intellectual component. When I first came to faith in God, my understanding of my Catholic Tradition was extremely limited and in many cases, serious erroneous. We have the hard, but joyful and fruitful task of searching the scriptures and coming to know God more and more.

:)

 

 

 

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