Gender Identification - NO HATE!


lostinwater
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I have a dear friend who recently told me he considers himself a female.  He dresses like a man, does not demand the use of girl bathrooms, does not march in parades, or demand that people accept him as a female.  In fact, he avoids telling others generally, as he knows it causes them pain.

He just believes that in his spirit, he is female.  He doesn't think that God made a mistake - just that for some reason, God decided he could learn something - or help someone - in this life, with a male body in a way that he wouldn't or couldn't in a female body.  So he is waiting for the next life where he believes God will at last place his spirit in the correct body.  To him, it is a temporary learning experience.

I have to admit, I feel quite certain I wouldn't be the person I am today if he had been placed in a female body.

Regardless, this is all extremely confusing to me - and I feel intensely conflicted.  His humility is not consistent with the internal beliefs concerning transgender people that I am having to re-evaluate.  

I am wondering if you have any similar experiences or thoughts on this subject?  

That said, I request that anyone thinking mean or judgmental thoughts not post them here.  I view no response at all as being preferable to ones that are  devoid of compassion and filled with judgments about the character of my friend.

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I keep an open mind about such things.  We know that, via genetic mutation, all sorts of anomalies may appear in the human body that don't necessarily mirror the body in its perfected form.  Some of these, I believe, are gender-related--people with female genetalia who turn out to have a "y" chromosome and lack ovaries/uteruses, for example.  It isn't a matter of God "making mistakes"; it's just a consequence of living in a world that is fallen temporally, chemically, molecularly as well as spiritually.  I am not prepared to say that occasionally, the fetus of an embryo that was meant for a female spirit can't wind up developing biologically as a male--or vice-versa.  We know that gender is an eternal characteristic of the spirit.  But presumably, the ability to see is also an eternal characteristic of the spirit--and that certainly doesn't mean that mortality doesn't sometimes temporarily obscure this "eternal" characteristic.

I look to to the church for guidance about how such individuals should pattern their lives.  A couple of years ago in an interview with the Salt Lake Tribune Elder Oaks acknowledged that with regard to transgender issues "we have some more teaching to do".  This suggests to me that's God may not yet have said all He has to say on the subject, and in the meantime it sounds to me like your friend is going about things in the right way by living chastely and not attempting to shame or manipulate the church into doing things his way.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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"Just because I'm female doesn't mean I have to be a girl", is one of my personal sayings.  I don't imply that I think I'm a man by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not a person who fits the "girly girly" social stereotypes.  Note: these are social stereotypes, not God defined.  I don't wear makeup, nor even own the stuff.  I don't own perfume, heals, or a purse.  I don't feel comfortable at girly-girly activities like baby showers.  And please don't torture me by suggesting we hang out at the mall.  I like video games and hanging out with the guys.  I work in a male dominate field, majority of my friends are guys, and I feel more comfortable talking knives than mascara.  Does this this make me a man or a man trapped in a woman's body?  No way!  I am who I am, and love every bit of God created me.

I personally don't know any transgender people, but I wonder if some of them are letting social stereotypes tell inform who they think they are.  For example, there are some guys who like makeup and ballet- things which are traditionally considered very "girly" activities.  I could see there being pressure to say that you feel like you're a girl if you like hanging out with the girls and doing "girly" stuff day after day after day.  Again, I don't know, but I wonder if this is the case for some.

Either way, it sounds like your friend is handling his situation in a pretty mature fashion.  I respect that. 

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1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

As someone with a mental illness I believe transgenderism is a mental illness not a God mistake.

Thank-you.  I respect that opinion, but I do not understand it fully - and I would like to.  I see all the illnesses that people have - malformed bodies, people born without limbs, or the ability to speak, people born with mix of male and female organs - and I tend to think it is reasonable belief to hold that perhaps a spirit whose gender is fixed for some reason gets placed in a body that does not match their spirit.  I am interested to get your thoughts on this topic.  Do you feel that the illnesses which plague people are not allowed to extend to the gender of the body?  Please know that I mean no disrespect - I just like to learn more about the thought processes of those who do not see the world as I do.

Thank-you very much.

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I know a family where the father turned out to be transgender. A few years later the mother came out also as transgender so they pretty much swapped roles and still love each other. Personally, I feel bad for their children and think they are selfish immoral petty parents. I too think its a type of mental illness for the most part. Its a choice people make.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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Guest LiterateParakeet
3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

 Personally, I feel bad for their children and think they are selfish immoral petty parents. I too think its a type of mental illness for the most part. Its a choice people make.

This is illogical.  Are you saying that mental illness = selfish, immoral, and petty? And that mental illness is a choice? Or do you have other issues with their parenting unrelated to being transgender?

@lostinwater, I really don't know.  I think the others have given plausible explanations.  If I were you, I would just love and support my friend the best I can.  You don't need to understand for that.  

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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11 hours ago, lostinwater said:

I have a dear friend who recently told me he considers himself a female.  He dresses like a man, does not demand the use of girl bathrooms, does not march in parades, or demand that people accept him as a female.  In fact, he avoids telling others generally, as he knows it causes them pain.

He just believes that in his spirit, he is female.  He doesn't think that God made a mistake - just that for some reason, God decided he could learn something - or help someone - in this life, with a male body in a way that he wouldn't or couldn't in a female body.  So he is waiting for the next life where he believes God will at last place his spirit in the correct body.  To him, it is a temporary learning experience.

I have to admit, I feel quite certain I wouldn't be the person I am today if he had been placed in a female body.

Regardless, this is all extremely confusing to me - and I feel intensely conflicted.  His humility is not consistent with the internal beliefs concerning transgender people that I am having to re-evaluate.  

I am wondering if you have any similar experiences or thoughts on this subject?  

That said, I request that anyone thinking mean or judgmental thoughts not post them here.  I view no response at all as being preferable to ones that are  devoid of compassion and filled with judgments about the character of my friend.

I was baptized as a college student in the 1970s and served a mission after I graduated. The man who baptized me as a graduate student in his 40s, never married, but very active with the missionaries and in fellowshipping me. While I took these circumstances to consider the possibility of his being gay, I did not give it much thought as there was never any inappropriate interaction and he was always a great example of righteousness to me.

After my mission, he shared with me that he was a woman in a man’s body. On weekends he would take on this identity out of town. Like your friend, he did not expect anything in the way of how he was to be addressed or treated. Suddenly a few missing pieces seemed to make sense, but I was not very charitable in my response, after all he had done for me. A few years later I reached out to him long-distance but I could tell he had drawn the line at civility and not so much friendship, and I do not blame him.

God does not make mistakes, but bodies and minds are subject to the random forces at play in the fallen world. God may intervene at times, but often not and therein is the test in seeing “if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.” This man baptized and fellowshipped me, as far as I can tell, with no ulterior motive than to share the Gospel.

Your friend’s beliefs and conclusions may or may not be correct, but that is not important in my opinion. The important thing to me is that his tears will be washed away and he will be judged according to the light he possesses. In the meantime, we can be part of that dynamic wherein “intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own.”

I wish I had acted the part those many years ago.

What galls me today is the contention against the Church and the Lord's servants on such issues. The spirit of contention and not sustaining that whioch has been revealed is not an edifying approach for anyone.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What galls me today is the contention against the Church and the Lord's servants on such issues. The spirit of contention and not sustaining that whioch has been revealed is not an edifying approach for anyone.

Not to oversimplify the issue, but I think there are two main issues driving that.  One is pain expressed as anger.  Pain and anger about the way some people treat you, perhaps on a regular basis.  And fear of judgement real or imagined.  Two is that some are truly deceived and doing Satan's work because they think they are right. 

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8 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thank-you.  I respect that opinion, but I do not understand it fully - and I would like to.  I see all the illnesses that people have - malformed bodies, people born without limbs, or the ability to speak, people born with mix of male and female organs - and I tend to think it is reasonable belief to hold that perhaps a spirit whose gender is fixed for some reason gets placed in a body that does not match their spirit.  I am interested to get your thoughts on this topic.  Do you feel that the illnesses which plague people are not allowed to extend to the gender of the body?  Please know that I mean no disrespect - I just like to learn more about the thought processes of those who do not see the world as I do.

Thank-you very much.

Oddly enough, genetics works such that someone with a predominantly male genetic makeup can appear female in all respects due to other biochemical processes at play (and to a lesser extent vice versa). I don't think genes are the sole  determiner of gender, or of matching spirits with bodies. In fact, I think this is one of the ways God might intervene to ensure that a female spirit surrounded by male genetics gets a female experience regardless. Just speculation.

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11 hours ago, lostinwater said:

I have a dear friend who recently told me he considers himself a female.

He just believes that in his spirit, he is female.

I have no idea what this means.  Could you elaborate?

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2 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Not to oversimplify the issue, but I think there are two main issues driving that.  One is pain expressed as anger.  Pain and anger about the way some people treat you, perhaps on a regular basis.  And fear of judgement real or imagined.  Two is that some are truly deceived and doing Satan's work because they think they are right. 

Yes, we live in a contentious world, where the devil manipulates such a spirit, so it is considered normal to "render evil or evil and railing for railing." Being a fallen person myself, I cannot blame anyone for being contentious, but it still galls me LOL. I think it never really advance's anyone's cause in the sense of personal "happiness, peace and rest" (overcoming wickedness) to operate with the spirit of contention, especially a saint.

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4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

This is illogical.  Are you saying that mental illness = selfish, immoral, and petty? And that mental illness is a choice? Or do you have other issues with their parenting unrelated to being transgender?

@lostinwater, I really don't know.  I think the others have given plausible explanations.  If I were you, I would just love and support my friend the best I can.  You don't need to understand for that.  

Well, they were both devout conservative LDS with callings. Now they are liberal left atheists and anarchists. Its either an illness or sometjing. Just tring to be nice I guess.

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12 hours ago, lostinwater said:

I have a dear friend who recently told me he considers himself a female.  He dresses like a man, does not demand the use of girl bathrooms, does not march in parades, or demand that people accept him as a female.  In fact, he avoids telling others generally, as he knows it causes them pain.

He just believes that in his spirit, he is female.  He doesn't think that God made a mistake - just that for some reason, God decided he could learn something - or help someone - in this life, with a male body in a way that he wouldn't or couldn't in a female body.  So he is waiting for the next life where he believes God will at last place his spirit in the correct body.  To him, it is a temporary learning experience.

I have to admit, I feel quite certain I wouldn't be the person I am today if he had been placed in a female body.

Regardless, this is all extremely confusing to me - and I feel intensely conflicted.  His humility is not consistent with the internal beliefs concerning transgender people that I am having to re-evaluate.  

I am wondering if you have any similar experiences or thoughts on this subject?  

That said, I request that anyone thinking mean or judgmental thoughts not post them here.  I view no response at all as being preferable to ones that are  devoid of compassion and filled with judgments about the character of my friend.

humility isn't necessarily based on how one self-identifies.
very few people actually have the chance to see a spirit in detail. also it seems to me that while in mortality the spirit is subject to the body more than the body is subject to the spirit.

either way you will have to come to a conclusion with both outcomes-

either he's right, or he's not. Personally I'd put God first and err on the human side.

or i suppose one can leave it undecided.

Edited by Blackmarch
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Half the world wants you to tell your friend "Something is wrong with you."  The other half wants you to say "There is nothing wrong with you."

I think God just wants you to love your friend and stay out of it.  Go give 'em a hug. Listen to them, cry with them, find ways to laugh with them.  Like how hard it is to come up with pronouns now.  

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I've written this here before but I can't seem to find it on my search, so I'm just gonna write it again here.

In my humble opinion, the following can happen in our journey through mortality:

1.)  A female spirit joins a female mortal body with female sexual desires.

2.) A male spirit joins a male mortal body with male sexual desires.

3.) A female spirit joins a female mortal body with male sexual desires.

4.) A female spirit joins a male mortal body with female sexual desires.

5.) A male spirit joins a male mortal body with female sexual desires.

6.) A male spirit joins a female mortal body with male sexual desires.

7.) A male or female spirit joins either male or female mortal body devoid of sexual desire.

Do you see what I'm getting at?  In summary, I believe there is spirit and then there is our imperfect mortal bodies and that sexual desire is a mortal desire in the same manner as hunger and can be part of the mortal body's imperfection in varying degrees of difficulty.  For example, I have Intermittent Explosive Disorder.  It's a chemical imabalance that drives anger responses.  My spirit has absolutely no desire to be angry at a specific trigger.  But my body produces all this energy that my spirit has to figure out how to diffuse before it gets released in the form of anger.

The objective of mortality is for our spirits to CHANGE.  That Change comes about through the manner by which we deal with our mortal challenges.  I don't have a problem with the thinking that some people may have the veil to their true eternal gender and has to deal with the confusion of their mortal bodies and their mortal desires.  Our mortal bodies is not just physical but also psychological.  I believe our Intelligence (Spirit) drives our psychological responses but sometimes our mortal bodies wouldn't cooperate.

The gospel teachings are there for our Spirits to learn what is right and what is wrong in the way we control our bodies.  For those whose mortal challenge includes gender confusion, they will need to trust in God and His Prophets on this issue.  The Prophets give the laws under the reality of our mortal bodies.  Yes, Bishops have the power of discernment that can know things of the Spirit through Revelation and have the keys to the ward and yes, each of us also has the power of Revelation for our own selves.  I am confident that following the Prophets in regards to the callings of our mortal gender (including eternal marriage) will bring to pass a measure of Joy for our Spirits, regardless of what the "true gender" of that spirit may be.

And that's just my 2 cents on the matter.

 

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58 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I have to wonder if Transgenderism is not a form of Body Dysmorphic Disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder

I am no expert on the matter but it does seem to fit pretty well

Pretty much.

I tend to categorize most of the arguments the same as the people who are sure the Spirit told them to marry and then divorce someone, and it must be because there was some lesson they needed there.  In all other instances we treat marriage as truly sacred, and we accept that gender is a critical element to a marriage, but then when it's convenient, suddenly we're willing to say the Lord sees it as something to be toyed with as a learning experience.

Consistency would dictate that we treat such claims as tantamount to saying that someone really needed to commit a murder to progress spiritually.

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9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Half the world wants you to tell your friend "Something is wrong with you."  The other half wants you to say "There is nothing wrong with you."

I think God just wants you to love your friend and stay out of it.  Go give 'em a hug. Listen to them, cry with them, find ways to laugh with them.  Like how hard it is to come up with pronouns now.  

I have been fortunate to make friends and acquaintances with so many people that are different from me in so many ways, including the topic under discussion. I'm grateful to them for helping me to apply what I understand to be my Savior's example when he dined with "publicans and sinners". The only category I'm still struggling with making it through dinner is the "mean people".  Keep trying, right?

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Are female spirits placed in male bodies? No

Are each of us given trials and struggles in life that are hard? Yes

Are we required before the Lord to accept and follow his truths? Yes, and part of this is overcoming any selfish, natural man/woman tendency, that we are facing. This is the same for the husband who struggles with cleaving unto his wife. His innate feelings (to love more than one woman) do not trump God's commandment to cleave unto his wife.

I do have compassion for Hermaphrodites who easily could have sexual organs removed at birth and indeed they were of that spirit (which are different than people who are easily identified physically as male/female). However, I have even more compassion for these individuals in our confused world of gender identity.

I applaud your friend and his decisions right now. He is discovering and not acting rashly.

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5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Are female spirits placed in male bodies? No

 

I understand this.  I just have a different opinion because... growing up in a 3rd world country, I just can't reconcile that statement with the fact that there are children born with ambiguous genitalia or so malformed that we couldn't figure out which is which that are growing up struggling because... in the Philippines, we don't "fix" these types of physical malformations because, we just don't have that kind of money out there.

So, if I'm going to conclude that our spirit genders always matches our bodies, then you'll have to conclude that these children have ambiguous spirits.  That doesn't make sense to me.  But, if we're going to conclude that these children are male or female, then we'll have to conclude that our spirit genders do not always go to the mortal body with those specific genders... which opens the possibility that even if the mortal body is clearly male/female but the psychological instinct is the opposite of that gender, then the mortal gender can be considered ambiguous.

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

I understand this.  I just have a different opinion because... growing up in a 3rd world country, I just can't reconcile that statement with the fact that there are children born with ambiguous genitalia or so malformed that we couldn't figure out which is which that are growing up struggling because... in the Philippines, we don't "fix" these types of physical malformations because, we just don't have that kind of money out there.

So, if I'm going to conclude that our spirit genders always matches our bodies, then you'll have to conclude that these children have ambiguous spirits.  That doesn't make sense to me.  But, if we're going to conclude that these children are male or female, then we'll have to conclude that our spirit genders do not always go to the mortal body with those specific genders... which opens the possibility that even if the mortal body is clearly male/female but the psychological instinct is the opposite of that gender, then the mortal gender can be considered ambiguous.

Are you referring to this statement of mine, "Hermaphrodites"? I am not understanding what you mean by "ambiguous" genitalia?

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