Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

No, I  can't empathize with anybody dead because I've never been dead myself.  All I can talk to you about is what I believe happens after death.  So, if somebody comes and asks me how to deal with being dead I can tell them what I think but somebody who has been dead before will have more authority on what exactly death is like.

Perhaps he should have said "near death experiences".

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Godless said:

No. I would have difficulty feeling sympathy for such an individual, let alone empathy.

That's a very poor empathy test, however. We've established that empathy requires a relatable experience, which doesn't exist in this extreme example. We've also established that empathy does not require or imply affirmation (see my example of addiction). You have yet to provide suitable evidence to the contrary.

My point shows that empathy is tied in with the emotional support for ones feelings, and it is, by definition- affirming them.

We dont of course have empathy for the serial child molester/murderer because of his morally debased actions. And thats my point- empathy very much is tied to affirmation. Here is the definition of affirm as it applies to the context of empathy-

 

"offer (someone) emotional support or encouragement"

[Rob Osborn]

40 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This isn't really a fair comparison (for me) because I don't have ANY homosexual or transgender tendencies.  But I DO have violent tendencies.

I've never killed anyone.  I've never beat anyone to a pulp.  I've never blown up anyone.  Yadda-yadda.  But I've sure wanted to on occasion.  I could blame my violent streak on Hollywood.  But I remember having violent feelings as a 5 year old.  And, yes, I've even visualized very violent ends to people who have offended me.  Just because I've never acted on it, doesn't mean I haven't felt it.  So, in this case you offer, I don't feel sympathy, but I do feel empathy for them.  I understand how they feel even if I've never DONE anything like that.

And even though I cannot empathize with homosexual or transgender tendencies, I CAN empathize with their struggling with sexual desires that are not in line with the Lord.  This in no way says I approve.  I in no way affirm their actions.  In fact I condemn their actions in the strongest terms -- WHERE AND WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE.  On this thread it really doesn't matter.  All but a couple here know and acknowledge it is a sin.  That doesn't mean we can't empathize with someone who struggles with sexual desire.  It is the most powerful emotive (mortal) force there is.  (Napoleon Hill).

The LGBT want us to empathize with their plight so that they fulfill the justification to not qualify as being immoral. Its why we cant show or, should I say- support them with empathy that would justify their so called redefinition of morals.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The LGBT want us to empathize with their plight so that they fulfill the justification to not qualify as being immoral. Its why we cant show or, should I say- support them with empathy that would justify their so called redefinition of morals.

I don't care what their motivations are.  I'm not going to justify their actions.  But I can still empathize without supporting them.  And that single point is one that seems to be unable to pass your lips (or fingers as the case may be).

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I don't care what their motivations are.  I'm not going to justify their actions.  But I can still empathize without supporting them.  And that single point is one that seems to be unable to pass your lips (or fingers as the case may be).

Thanks Carb.  i'd suggest though that motivations are the things we should care about.  i sort of think that there would be much less angst in this world if we focused as much on motivations as we did on actions.  

Rob/Carb - for the benefit of those lacking the context of the last 400 posts, i'll say that the actions you can't support are homosexuality and societal gender stereotype breakdown - not feelings of conflict between the gender of mortal body/spirit.  Correct if needed.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks Carb.  i'd suggest though that motivations are the things we should care about.  i sort of think that there would be much less angst in this world if we focused as much on motivations as we did on actions.  

Rob/Carb - for the benefit of those lacking the context of the last 400 posts, i'll say that the actions you can't support are homosexuality and societal gender stereotype breakdown - not feelings of conflict between the gender of mortal body/spirit.  Correct if needed.

In case there is something that needs correcting in your wording, here is my position:

I do not support homosexual activity in any way shape or form.  I believe it is a sin against God to perform such acts.  As a matter of compassion, I'll always try to be polite.  And those who are struggling with keeping the commandments while having the internal feelings that would be contrary, I empathize with one who is struggling to keep the commandments of God.  Those who choose to dive headlong into such sin, I believe they've made a very bad decision.

For those who have some physiological anomaly that makes them sexually ambiguous, I have some compassion for them in their confused state.  I don't know where I stand with them in gospel terms. For those who have no such anomaly but simply have a "feeling" that their spirit conflicts with their body, based on what I know now, I'd say they have a mental/emotional problem that they should seek help for.

I don't believe societal stereotypes should have anything to do with this issue.  I read of a woman who thought she was a lesbian or a man in a woman's body.  But as she grew up and learned more about things, she just realized she was a tomboy.  She liked things that guys liked.  She was physically very large and muscular.  But she was a heterosexual woman who fell in love with a great man who understood her tendencies.

It is because of her story that I tend to believe that some (I have no idea what percentage) are pushed into the transgender mindset because they compare what they are feeling vs societal stereotypes and think they must be transgender.  If I bought into that I'd be thinking I'm a transgender myself.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Guest

[lostinwater]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

In case there is something that needs correcting in your wording, here is my position:

I do not support homosexual activity in any way shape or form.  I believe it is a sin against God to perform such acts.  As a matter of compassion, I'll always try to be polite.  And those who are struggling with keeping the commandments while having the internal feelings that would be contrary, I empathize with one who is struggling to keep the commandments of God.  Those who choose to dive headlong into such sin, I believe they've made a very bad decision.

For those who have some physiological anomaly that makes them sexually ambiguous, I have some compassion for them in their confused state.  I don't know where I stand with them in gospel terms. For those who have no such anomaly but simply have a "feeling" that their spirit conflicts with their body, based on what I know now, I'd say they have a mental/emotional problem that they should seek help for.

Thanks.  Sorry i put words in your mouth.  Disagree on the feelings of conflict indicating mental problems - but we've covered that ground already.

[anatess2]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Perhaps he should have said "near death experiences".

I've never had those either.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks.  Sorry i put words in your mouth.  Disagree on the feelings of conflict indicating mental problems - but we've covered that ground already.

I didn't think you put words in my mouth.  I think you did a pretty good job summarizing things.  I merely corrected a mistake.  I'm sure your intentions were honest.

[Rob Osborn]

On 2/24/2017 at 7:51 AM, Carborendum said:

I don't care what their motivations are.  I'm not going to justify their actions.  But I can still empathize without supporting them.  And that single point is one that seems to be unable to pass your lips (or fingers as the case may be).

Thats fine, you are entitled to your way as is mine. Its fine.

[yjacket]

I tend to agree more with Rob on empathy/sympathy . . .but my view is more nuanced. 

Empathy   the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also :  the capacity for this

I will never have empathy for transgender, I can't possibly relate to it.  I've never had those types of confusions, I've never been close to that or homosexual stuff. But then again, I don't need to have empathy for transgender.  I can certainly have sympathy for those who are confused, I imagine that it is very difficult.  I've been through very difficult stuff in my life, so I can have sympathy that what they are going through is very difficult for them.  Sympathy for them as in "I imagine it is really rough", but not empathy as in "I have a similar understanding of how it exactly feels".

Quite frankly, it's very difficult to have true empathy b/c we are all different, all unique and experience things differently from each other.  The only Being who truly knows how we feel and can truly empathize with us is our Savior, Jesus Christ. It is to Him we should look for empathy, not from man.

I think of it this way with my kids.  My kids might say Dad, I hate you or that is so unfair, etc. I have sympathy for them and I can say-you know if I were in your shoes I'd probably feel the same way.  But I don't have empathy, yes as one point I was a child, but that was so long again and I've grown as an adult so much that I really have either forgotten or don't know, I can't have empathy for them. And quite frankly I'm not a child, my brain thinks and operates at a completely different level than a child so I can't really have empathy-but I certainly can have sympathy for them.

[anatess2]

On 2/26/2017 at 11:44 AM, yjacket said:

I tend to agree more with Rob on empathy/sympathy . . .but my view is more nuanced. 

Empathy   the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also :  the capacity for this

I will never have empathy for transgender, I can't possibly relate to it.  I've never had those types of confusions, I've never been close to that or homosexual stuff. But then again, I don't need to have empathy for transgender.  I can certainly have sympathy for those who are confused, I imagine that it is very difficult.  I've been through very difficult stuff in my life, so I can have sympathy that what they are going through is very difficult for them.  Sympathy for them as in "I imagine it is really rough", but not empathy as in "I have a similar understanding of how it exactly feels".

Quite frankly, it's very difficult to have true empathy b/c we are all different, all unique and experience things differently from each other.  The only Being who truly knows how we feel and can truly empathize with us is our Savior, Jesus Christ. It is to Him we should look for empathy, not from man.

I think of it this way with my kids.  My kids might say Dad, I hate you or that is so unfair, etc. I have sympathy for them and I can say-you know if I were in your shoes I'd probably feel the same way.  But I don't have empathy, yes as one point I was a child, but that was so long again and I've grown as an adult so much that I really have either forgotten or don't know, I can't have empathy for them. And quite frankly I'm not a child, my brain thinks and operates at a completely different level than a child so I can't really have empathy-but I certainly can have sympathy for them.

I don't understand the child example.

I have empathy for my child because I've been through what he's been through.  It doesn't mean I chose the same things as he is choosing but I sure went through the similar, if not the same, conflicts.  It is what made me who I am today so I can't possibly have forgotten how that felt.

Yes, Christ is the one that can truly empathize with us as He is all knowing.  But this conflicts with your child-example that because you have gained more knowledge then you can't empathize with children anymore.

Sympathy is different than empathy for my child.  I can't imagine looking at my child in sympathy instead of empathy because I can't relate to what he's going through but feel bad for him.  That doesn't compute in my head.

[anatess2]

Here's an interesting conversation between two gay men, one for gay marriage the other not.  So, one guy is Boy George, the other is Milo Yiannapoulus before Milo became a controversial figure.  It's kinda weird looking at Milo as the serious person in the room. 

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by anatess2

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Here's an interesting conversation between two gay men, one for gay marriage the other not.  So, one guy is Boy George, the other is Milo Yiannapoulus before Milo became a controversial figure.  It's kinda weird looking at Milo as the serious person in the room. 

 

Thank-you.  However......

Please don't take offense.  But, in the nicest way possible, i'll request again.  If you want to discuss homosexuality, please start another thread. Attempts to associate feelings of conflict about the gender of one's body and spirit (not a sin) with physical expression of homosexuality (a sin) is invalid and below board.

I welcome anyone - absolutely ANYONE -  to provide one iota of biblical evidence stating that feelings of gender conflict are sinful, or even incorrect.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

I welcome anyone - absolutely ANYONE -  to provide one iota of biblical evidence stating that feelings of gender conflict are sinful, or even incorrect.

I welcome anyone - aboslutely ANYONE - to provide on iota of biblical evidence that the concept of gender conflict was even a "thing" during biblical times.

You can't seriously ask for something like this when it is a fairly new phenomenon.  But we can observe that several times we see statements like "or anything like unto it", and "there are many and diverse ways in which man may sin."  Making a statement like you have is no different than pulling a Bill Clinton.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Guest

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

I welcome anyone - absolutely ANYONE -  to provide one iota of biblical evidence stating that feelings of gender conflict are sinful, or even incorrect.

Isn't the "incorrect" part self-evident? If I have deep feelings of desire to beat up my neighbor or rape his daughter, or walk around naked in a school zone, or shout profanities at the top of my lungs during Church, or eat the brain of a living cow, or melt down pennies for their zinc content, or violently overthrow the US government, or cut off my fingers, or eat broken glass and razor blades, or name my newborn son Dweezil, I think it's safe to say those feelings are incorrect, even if I don't act on them. The feelings per se may not make me sinful, but that doesn't mean they're not incorrect.

[lostinwater]

25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I welcome anyone - aboslutely ANYONE - to provide on iota of biblical evidence that the concept of gender conflict were even a "thing" during biblical times.

You can't seriously ask for something like this when it is a fairly new phenomenon.  But we can observe that several times we see statements like "or anything like unto it", and "there are many and diverse ways in which man may sin."  Making a statement like you have is no different than pulling a Bill Clinton.

Thanks.  OK - so let's be clear.  YOU are saying feelings of gender conflict are incorrect.  i am absolutely fine with that.  i respect your opinion.  

But to hold up a bible in front of my friend and claim that it is condemning them is invalid.  And yes, i realize that some of you may not have done that.  Though i don't think i'd be too far off track stating that this thread is rank with such inferences - which is fine - this thread is all about personal inferences.  If you haven't done this, then please don't take what i said personally.  Even if you have, please don't take it too seriously.

i think that feelings of gender conflict have existed for a very, very, very long time.  The wiki article for transgender history notes that there are records from ancient times.  But, most of the people who make it into the history books are not like my friend at all - so i'd rather not make any claims there.

If people want to condemn the feelings of my friend, that is your prerogative.  But please don't claim or infer your condemnation is based on biblical facts.

@Vort - i don't mean this in a flippant way.  But to relate feelings of gender conflict to overthrowing the US government, or eating razor blades.  Sorry, i am not sure what to say.

Edited February 27, 2017 by lostinwater

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

 YOU are saying feelings of gender conflict are incorrect.

And YOU are saying that they are correct.  What do you base it on?  I've actually asked that multiple times and you've refused to answer.  I at least have a basis for thinking he's messed up for believing that.  What is your basis?  Or his basis?

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

@Vort - i don't mean this in a flippant way.  But to relate feelings of gender conflict to overthrowing the US government, or eating razor blades.  Sorry, i am not sure what to say.

Huh. I thought my meaning was obvious enough, but apparently I was mistaken. Let me elucidate.

Some ideas, actions, or desires are simply not good, either because they are inherently damaging or because they lead to bad ends in a given situation. Feelings of so-called "gender conflict" seem to me to be part of the first group: Inherently unhealthy. That is not a judgment on the person, but simply an observation, no different from saying that a propensity to breast cancer is inherently unhealthy.

I am trying to picture a situation in which feelings of "gender conflict" (i.e. you don't know what sex you are, or you think that your "spiritual" or "innate" sex is different from your biological sex) is a good, healthy thing. I'm coming up blank. Perhaps you can give me a scenario where it's a wonderful and healthy thing to experience such a conflict. If not, then I maintain what I wrote before: Such feelings are not conducive to happiness, and I would not wish them on anyone I cared about -- or for that matter on those I didn't care about.

Since you disagree with me to the point that you can't even think of how to respond to my words, let me ask you for a few examples of when feelings of "gender conflict" might be correct and good, something we're really happy to be experiencing. That might break the logjam and allow us to communicate better.

[lostinwater]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And YOU are saying that they are correct.  What do you base it on?  I've actually asked that multiple times and you've refused to answer.  I at least have a basis for thinking he's messed up for believing that.  What is your basis?  Or his basis?

Thanks Carb.  No argument.  i have my opinion - you have your opinion.  But opinions they are.  i make no claim that the bible explicitly calls out and justifies feelings of gender conflict. 

Honestly, i am posting this on a Mormon forum.  i'd be foolish indeed to suppose that any amount of intellectual wrangling was going to result in people magically discarding their views and join me.  

However, i do ask that people not use the bible as evidence of the correctness of their opinion.  Or that at least before they do so, they provide something that substantiates that claim.  And i also reiterate the request that precipitated my first post of the day - that people move their discussions on homosexuality to a different thread - because not doing so reinforces the false stereotype that all people with feelings of gender conflict indulge in homosexuality.

[lostinwater]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Huh. I thought my meaning was obvious enough, but apparently I was mistaken. Let me elucidate.

Some ideas, actions, or desires are simply not good, either because they are inherently damaging or because they lead to bad ends in a given situation. Feelings of so-called "gender conflict" seem to me to be part of the first group: Inherently unhealthy. That is not a judgment on the person, but simply an observation, no different from saying that a propensity to breast cancer is inherently unhealthy.

I am trying to picture a situation in which feelings of "gender conflict" (i.e. you don't know what sex you are, or you think that your "spiritual" or "innate" sex is different from your biological sex) is a good, healthy thing. I'm coming up blank. Perhaps you can give me a scenario where it's a wonderful and healthy thing to experience such a conflict. If not, then I maintain what I wrote before: Such feelings are not conducive to happiness, and I would not wish them on anyone I cared about -- or for that matter on those I didn't care about.

Since you disagree with me to the point that you can't even think of how to respond to my words, let me ask you for a few examples of when feelings of "gender conflict" might be correct and good, something we're really happy to be experiencing. That might break the logjam and allow us to communicate better.

Thanks @Vort

i try to avoid the 'if it results in painful things happening, then it must be bad' association.  i can point you to my friend.  The pain they have felt has made them more compassionate, more patient, and more kind.  

i get your point though.  And one day, i sincerely hope that we will be able to judge the correctness of a person's actions/beliefs by their outward state.  In the mean time, my friend will struggle for the things they believe - growing from that struggle - despite the price, with a hope that one day God will make all right.

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks @Vort

i try to avoid the 'if it results in painful things happening, then it must be bad' association.  i can point you to my friend.  The pain they have felt has made them more compassionate, more patient, and more kind.  

i get your point though.  And one day, i sincerely hope that we will be able to judge the correctness of a person's actions/beliefs by their outward state.  In the mean time, my friend will struggle for the things they believe - growing from that struggle - despite the price, with a hope that one day God will make all right.

This is fine, as far as it goes. But again, can you cite a few example cases in which "gender conflict" is a good, healthy, desirable thing? Do you believe your friend to be happier or healthier from his experience of "gender conflict"?

If not, perhaps you can further explain your challenge for "anyone - absolutely ANYONE -  to provide one iota of biblical evidence stating that feelings of gender conflict are...incorrect." (And there is such evidence, especially if you consider New Testament allusions to male prostitutes and such.) Do you believe that the Bible needs to specify every variation of harmful ideas or feelings or disorders of the human psyche before it's allowable to make the rather obvious observation that, hey, if you're a man but you think you should be a woman, that's not a healthy thing that is likely to lead to a happy, contented life?

Or have I altogether misunderstood your point?

[yjacket]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I don't understand the child example.

I have empathy for my child because I've been through what he's been through.  It doesn't mean I chose the same things as he is choosing but I sure went through the similar, if not the same, conflicts.  It is what made me who I am today so I can't possibly have forgotten how that felt.

Yes, Christ is the one that can truly empathize with us as He is all knowing.  But this conflicts with your child-example that because you have gained more knowledge then you can't empathize with children anymore.

Sympathy is different than empathy for my child.  I can't imagine looking at my child in sympathy instead of empathy because I can't relate to what he's going through but feel bad for him.  That doesn't compute in my head.

anatess, I mean this in a nice way but I think you're picking at nats here.  You haven't been through exactly what your child has been through.  You were raised in a different environment and a different culture-the same with my kids. Yes, I was a kids once. But I have a somewhat lazy child, I was never like that-so no I can't empathize with that. Just b/c I was a child once doesn't mean I can remember and know what it is like to be a child.  Shoot that was decades ago-I have memories of it but that's about it. The point being that as of this point right now-all I can really do is sympathize and tell them, yeah if I were your age I'd probably feel like that too-but I'm not so I don't.  

The difference being with Christ is that I'm pretty sure he has all knowledge whereas I've grown/become different but I don't have all memories for a previous point in life. I don't need empathy to be a good parent, in fact I might say empathy might be a hindrance to being a good parent.   

Empathy is "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another." I'd argue that if I as a parent I am sharing the feelings my child has then I'm doing it wrong. I asked my Dad (whom I have an absolutely awesome relationship with as an adult), if when we were kids if he ever really, really cared how we felt.  His response, "No, not really". I just laughed after he said that b/c frankly that is the same attitude I have with my kids.  I don't really care much about how they feel. My job is to teach and train them how to be responsible, honorable, decent human beings in this life and I don't really care how they feel about it or the methods I use to train them.

[yjacket]

27 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

However, i do ask that people not use the bible as evidence of the correctness of their opinion.

Then we are at an impasse, the Scriptures are God's Word to us through His Prophets.  Modern Prophets are men called of God to teach the world His Truth.  If one cannot use the Bible (i.e. scriptures, words of Prophets, etc.) then what is the point?  

Then we are just debating about what everyone thinks and instead of their being One Truth, the Truth becomes whoever has the better argument to persuade everyone else over to their side.  In fact, if we ditch the scriptures, then Truth becomes whatever each individual wants it to be . . .otherwise known as moral relativism. Now if that is the path you want to go down, be my guest, but a word of warning.  Moral relativism is an extremely dangerous ideology, that at the end of the day boils down to might makes right, and that is extremely dangerous.

[lostinwater]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

This is fine, as far as it goes. But again, can you cite a few example cases in which "gender conflict" is a good, healthy, desirable thing? Do you believe your friend to be happier or healthier from his experience of "gender conflict"?

If not, perhaps you can further explain your challenge for "anyone - absolutely ANYONE -  to provide one iota of biblical evidence stating that feelings of gender conflict are...incorrect." (And there is such evidence, especially if you consider New Testament allusions to male prostitutes and such.) Do you believe that the Bible needs to specify every variation of harmful ideas or feelings or disorders of the human psyche before it's allowable to make the rather obvious observation that, hey, if you're a man but you think you should be a woman, that's not a healthy thing that is likely to lead to a happy, contented life?

Or have I altogether misunderstood your point?

Thanks @Vort.  i guess that for all the people who are correct that the gender of their spirit and body are not aligned, their sense that their is a conflict is a good, healthy and desirable thing - in my opinion.  The only one i know well enough to personally vouch for is my friend.  

No - definitely don't expect the Bible to account for every eventuality.  Though to be honest, i am pretty comfortable in saying there is very little that is similar between my friend and a male prostitute.  Actually, i am extremely comfortable in saying that.