So - PETA...

[Ironhold]

http://www.peta.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Games-Workshop-Ban-Fur-Letter.pdf

http://www.peta.org.uk/blog/peta-warhammer-fur-free/

PETA's UK branch has just sent a letter to tabletop game manufacturer Games Workshop asking that the company quit including fur clothing and accessories in the designs of their various fictional characters, as they believe it promotes the use of fur in fashion. 

Given the kinds of people who *play* GW's games, I'm expecting a fair bit of trolling to come any minute now. 

[NeuroTypical]

PETA - pretty much anyone in any animal related organization, from vets to breeders to animal rights activists - they all seem to have a pretty low opinion of PETA.  Whether you're for or against some animal issue, you all laugh at PETA.  Because they run on two things - emotion and ignorance.  

You can find the occasional person in PETA with a couple of brain cells to rub together, but even they will be embarrassed at some of the things PETA does and claims to stand for.

[unixknight]

My friend and longtime fellow Warhammer 40,000 player and I were mocking this like crazy today. 

This is why people have a hard time taking PETA seriously.  They're spending time and energy to complain about a fictional setting where fictional people wear animal pelts made, in many cases, from fictional creatures.  To really put it over the top they say this:

Quote

Indeed, nothing on the bloody battlefields of Warhammer’s conflict-ravaged universe could match the terrible reality that foxes, minks, rabbits, and other living beings experience at the hands of the fur trade.

Anybody who's spent more than five minutes with the Warhammer setting knows how utterly absurd that statement is.  In a universe where demons wait to consume souls by the millions, where entire worlds are exterminated to eliminate the taint of chaos, in a grim dark future where there's only war and the laughter of thirsting "gods" these people believe that the evil of animal furs is beyond these things.

Of course they don't literally mean it at face value, but hyperbole based on ignorance and appeals to emotion are not helping. 

[zil]

5 minutes ago, unixknight said:

This is why people have a hard time taking PETA seriously.  They're spending time and energy to complain about a fictional setting where fictional people wear animal pelts made, in many cases, from fictional creatures.  To really put it over the top they say this:...

For those of us who haven't spent more than zero minutes with this game, is there actual fur trade (as in trappers, skinning, tanning, etc.) in this game, or just that you can pick clothes for your avatar to wear, some of which is fur?

(I just want an idea of how far off the deep end their comment is - are they complaining about virtual fur, or are they complaining about simulation of the real fur industry?)

[unixknight]

Just now, zil said:

For those of us who haven't spent more than zero minutes with this game, is there actual fur trade (as in trappers, skinning, tanning, etc.) in this game, or just that you can pick clothes for your avatar to wear, some of which is fur?

(I just want an idea of how far off the deep end their comment is - are they complaining about virtual fur, or are they complaining about simulation of the real fur industry?)

So part of the fluff in Warhammer 40K is that characters of some cultures wear furs in the same was as ancient Earth civilizations did.  It offers a sort of barbaric character to a futuristic, high tech setting.  There's no fur trade in the game or anything like that.  It's all aesthetic.

[zil]

1 minute ago, unixknight said:

So part of the fluff in Warhammer 40K is that characters of some cultures wear furs in the same was as ancient Earth civilizations did.  It offers a sort of barbaric character to a futuristic, high tech setting.  There's no fur trade in the game or anything like that.  It's all aesthetic.

OK, now I feel completely comfortable saying someone's a complete idiot.

[Guest Godless]

Lol, one of my colleagues was just talking about this in our leadership meeting this morning. The general consensus in the nerd community is that this is just a ploy to give PETA some attention on the interwebs. 

[mirkwood]

54 minutes ago, zil said:

For those of us who haven't spent more than zero minutes with this game, is there actual fur trade (as in trappers, skinning, tanning, etc.) in this game, or just that you can pick clothes for your avatar to wear, some of which is fur?

(I just want an idea of how far off the deep end their comment is - are they complaining about virtual fur, or are they complaining about simulation of the real fur industry?)

There is only war.

[Guest]

People Eating Tasty Animals!

Edited January 30, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Guest Godless]

"Hey PETA, I have three words for you: chicken-fried chicken."

-Stephen Colbert 

[Guest]

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, Godless said:

Lol, one of my colleagues was just talking about this in our leadership meeting this morning. The general consensus in the nerd community is that this is just a ploy to give PETA some attention on the interwebs. 

They're getting attention alright... dunno if that's the kind of attention they really want though!

[mirkwood]

So PETA is mad at Games Workshop because in the nightmare hellscape of the 40k universe, somebody wears fur... Oh boy... Nobody tell the anti-GMO people about Nurgle.  ~ Larry Correia

[unixknight]

The trolling from the Warhammer community is in full swing.

In an apology from a chaos demon of the warp:

Quote

The immortal fiend, who entered our galaxy from the hell-realm of the Warp to murder and lay waste to the living, has issued a full apology following pressure from the animal rights group.
It continued: “Somehow, as I was ravening across the cosmos eviscerating and mutilating any sentient being I could, I lost sight of what was important.

“I’m a role model to children, and topping my eight bladed torture-instrument limbs which support the mountain of my putrescent, acid-weeping flesh with fur shoulder-pads is unacceptable.

“I can’t apologise enough for the hurt I’ve caused, and I’ve agreed to appear in PETA’s next ad campaign under the slogan ‘I’d rather be Lawful Good than wear fur.’”

A PETA spokesman said: “Living in the grim darkness of a far future where there is only war is no excuse for making poor moral choices.”

And a call for Space Marines to do more to protect threatened alien races...

Quote

“Look at the carnage we have inflicted amongst our fluffy space-brethren from both inside and outside the warp. All those poor, innocent Osirian Psybrids lost,” said PETA Spokesman Simon Williams, wiping away a tear.

“We even boast about it – you’ve got the Space Wolves going on that ‘there are no wolves on Fenris’.

“I ask you, is that the mark of a civilised species?! Animals are just as good as people when you think about it.

“When we’ve got the Emperor on side with this change in the Codex Astartes, we’ll be demanding the Necrons stop wearing flayed human skins unless the humans have voluntarily agreed to the process.”

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by unixknight

[Guest]

On 1/30/2017 at 4:27 PM, zil said:

(I just want an idea of how far off the deep end their comment is - are they complaining about virtual fur, or are they complaining about simulation of the real fur industry?)

I wonder if PETA is also against wearing fake fur.  It may speak to their version of "avoiding the appearance of evil".  But I wonder.  That's what they seem to be complaining about here with the Warhammer thing.

[Guest]

What upsets me most about the extreme animal rights crowd in general is that so many of them will go nuts if you use the wrong kind of mousetrap because you may hurt the mouse's foot, yet have no problem whatsoever with aborting a human baby.  Liberal hypocrisy at its finest?  

(I have to watch my language because i see nothing wrong with people who want to prosecute those who truly torture dogs and cats.  At the same time, i think the animal rights movement has gotten way out of hand, if i cannot drink a glass of milk without being lectured about the evils of commercial farming by some vegan extremist).

Edited February 2, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[NeuroTypical]

Yep, these folks are best understood as anti-human.  Humans, in their worldview, are the problem, the source of problems.  And stopping humans (via population control/reduction efforts, bans on scientific discovery, resource exploitation bans, greenhouse gas emissions treaties, or what have you) is what is best. 

[Guest]

PETA sucks but Stray Pets In Need or SPIN is a great organization that I donate to.

[Suzie]

On 2/2/2017 at 8:13 AM, DoctorLemon said:

f i cannot drink a glass of milk without being lectured about the evils of commercial farming by some vegan extremist.

As a vegan, I don't waste any time on people who are not interested or care to know where their food comes from because makes no sense. Having said that, it saddens me the position that spreading a message of compassion towards animals seems to be taken as a "lecture" from "vegan extremists". Is there anything wrong with just want the horrible abuse of animals to stop? I'm sincerely asking this.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Suzie said:

Having said that, it saddens me the position that spreading a message of compassion towards animals seems to be taken as a "lecture" from "vegan extremists". Is there anything wrong with just want the horrible abuse of animals to stop? I'm sincerely asking this.

I think it's the approach that Vegans use that tends to make us view you as extremists. My brothers and his family are vegans and so I am close to the situation so I will let you know how it feels for me and why it leaves negative feelings for both of us.

I liken their veganism as almost a new religion to them. They are very vegan (just like we are very Mormon). They want to share their knowledge with us (missionary work). They believe only the way they eat is the right way (we belong to the only true church of God). So in ways we share alot in common as with holding firm to our beliefs and getting others to join us. However it is the way Vegans come across that pushes us away, makes us feel uncomfortable and makes us view you as extremists.

Imagine if I was teaching the gospel to a Catholic  ( or any other religious person). "I say to him, my church is the only true and living church, it's the only way you can get to heaven. You don't believe in Joseph Smith, you are a horrible person for not believing in Joseph Smith. You have a different opinion on God, you are a bad person for not believing in God, because you don't believe in God like I do, you must not love God. Because you don't love God you are a horrible person. Now would you like to here about the only true and living gospel on the earth? Unless you join my church I will no longer treat you the same. I have the gospel, I am so much better than you are because I have a testimony and knowledge of God. "

The discussion wouldn't get go so well, and I wouldn't have a convert, I would probably have someone who thought I was a religious extremist. And they wouldn't want to here anymore from me.

And it goes the same for vegans, all I hear about is how horrible of a person I am, and how their belief on how to eat is the only way to eat. 

Here is what I hear from vegans "I'm vegan, being a vegan is the only way to eat. You don't believe in being vegan? You are a horrible person!  You believe in eating animals? You are a bad person for believing that you can eat animals, because you eat animals you hate animals, don't say you love animals because you don't, you don't love any animals, not even the cat and dog you love and care for. You don't love animals? You are a bad and selfish person. Now watch this, this and this and you will understand where I am coming from, you will want to be vegan. If you don't become vegan, I will treat you differently. I am such a better person than you are because I don't eat animals."

It doesn't really give the person in either situation a good feeling about the one giving the message.

I think Vegans would come across alittle bit better if they let go and tried not to force it upon other people, just as we can't force the gospel on anyone. It's the way they present it and try to force it upon us that pushes us away and makes us view the as extremists.

I hope you don't mind the analogy and hope aren't many typos but I just wanted to share how others have made me feel.

 

[Suzie]

@miav

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I understand exactly what you are saying because it is a common topic among vegans. I'm sorry about the experiences that you had with vegans but I hope you know that there are many vegans out there who are quite different in their approach so please do not think everyone is a fanatic.   Just like there are many different types of  Mormons here on this forum lol, there are many different types of vegans too. lol

First, I would like to say that there are a few misunderstandings in terminology that I think its important to point out. For example, someone who does not eat meat or any animal product is not necessarily vegan. Veganism is a lifestyle, and as the definition states " which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose". Some people choose to eat a plant-based diet only for health reasons but they are not vegans although they are referred as such. Then you have people who follow a plant-based diet due to health reasons AND for ethical reasons.

I think there are a few reasons why some vegans choose the wrong approach but these are my findings:

1. Ethical vegans are disgusted by the cruelty displayed towards animals on a daily basis and they want the pain to stop (and yes, some go a little too crazy). For me, it is understandable. If slaughterhouses had glass windows, more people would go vegan. It also makes them angry when some meat-eaters make fun of animals being tortured and yet calling vegans extremists. Having said that, calling someone a murderer will not help the cause and that's where militant vegans go wrong in my opinion.

2. Some health vegans feel so great after entering this journey that they become too passionate about it and want the world to know about how amazing it is so they get pushy. I truly believe a lot of our common illnesses can be prevented with proper diet and exercising. But I have been there, and I do not share much about veganism unless someone approaches me to find out more about it. The reasons for this is that I believe you can talk with people about religion and they will be somehow okay, you can talk about politics and they will also be somehow okay but hey, talk about food and what might be good/not good etc and they just lose their minds and go berserk.  There is no other topic (in my experience) that can get people more riled up than food and veganism. lol

However, it takes a while to get used to that fact. Hope you give us a chance again, not all of us are the same.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Suzie said:

As a vegan, I don't waste any time on people who are not interested or care to know where their food comes from because makes no sense. Having said that, it saddens me the position that spreading a message of compassion towards animals seems to be taken as a "lecture" from "vegan extremists". Is there anything wrong with just want the horrible abuse of animals to stop? I'm sincerely asking this.

Perhaps I was a little blunt in my post, and if I offended you I apologize.  I have just personally had experience primarily with vegans who are very in-your-face and judgmental about it, and those are the ones who I am calling extremists.  The ones who don't actually talk about it - just scream and yell about animal rights and call you a sociopath for eating meat, or flood your facebook post with slaughterhouse pictures.  The ones you have to be careful in conversation about and screen your words carefully so they don't just flip out about it. The ones who have a never-ending list of grievances (largely imagined) over your relationship with your dog.  "Lecture" is not the right word - more like "self-righteous ranting".  These are the extremists I am talking about.  There seems to be a very ugly and bullying culture behind parts of the animal rights movement, going well beyond just being "impassioned".  And I do think PETA, in particular, is encouraging this kind of behavior.  The extremists are destroying any message of compassion that there is in the animal rights movement.  

If you are a vegan, that's fine, I have some friends who are normal vegans too.  Just be... normal... about it, and we can absolutely be friends.  

I have the same problem with the "Angry Trump Voter", despite being conservative myself... people who you just can't reason with because they flip out if you even suggest that Breitbart News is not perfectly neutral or suggest anything contrary to their worldview or suggest that perhaps Obama is actually an American citizen.  And yes, there are people on the far left who are just as bad.  Perhaps we give these types more of a pass because we are so used to them, and perhaps we have learned to just keep our mouths shut about these types since you won't be convincing them of anything anyways...

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Suzie]

4 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

Perhaps I was a little blunt in my post, and if I offended you I apologize.  I have just personally had experience primarily with vegans who are very in-your-face and judgmental about it, and those are the ones who I am calling extremists.  The ones who don't actually talk about it - just scream and yell about animal rights and call you a sociopath for eating meat, or flood your facebook post with slaughterhouse pictures.  The ones you have to be careful in conversation about and screen your words carefully so they don't just flip out about it. The ones who have a never-ending list of grievances (largely imagined) over your relationship with your dog.  "Lecture" is not the right word - more like "self-righteous ranting".  These are the extremists I am talking about.  There seems to be a very ugly and bullying culture behind the animal rights movement, going well beyond just being "impassioned".  And I do think PETA, in particular, is encouraging this kind of behavior.  The extremists are destroying any message of compassion that there is in the animal rights movement.  

If you are a vegan, that's fine, I have some friends who are normal vegans too.  Just be... normal... about it, and we can absolutely be friends.  

I have the same problem with the "Angry Trump Voter", despite being conservative myself... people who you just can't reason with because they flip out if you even suggest that Breitbart News is not perfectly neutral or suggest anything contrary to their worldview. 

 

You didn't offend me at all but thanks, that's very kind of you to say.

I completely understand what you are saying. I tend to think the vegans you refer to or the "Angry Trump voters" are not like this because of veganism or Trump. I believe they were like that before and they just happen to vent through these channels. Having said that, I feel very passionate about animal welfare and health but my approach is a little different.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Suzie said:

If slaughterhouses had glass windows, more people would go vegan.

Yes, and no.

My sister went to a slaughterhouse for a high school trip.  She decided to go vegan for about one month.  She just couldn't give up a well battered and properly seasoned pork chop.  I didn't really care for pork chops at that time, so I couldn't understand why that was the thing that made her get off that train. If it were me I would have waited for a very nice porterhouse cooked to perfection with just the right seasonings.

I also went to a slaughterhouse for a tour.  Since it was the same high school, I can only assume it was the same slaughterhouse.  I saw the same thing she did.  I was unimpressed.  No change in diet.

Later in life, my sister tried to go vegan again for health reasons.  She treated us to a nice meal that I thought tasted fine.

A few years later, I raised cattle.  Each time I took them to the slaughterhouse I knew exactly what went on.  They had to wait a day or so before they got to my cow.  But I saw other cattle being slaughtered.  There was no "cruelty".  The house obviously had to kill it.  But the process was very quick and painless.  I saw the slaughter process as well.  Some of it was gross.  But when I put my brain to it I had to realize that they were doing it in the most efficient way possible.  And, all things considered, it was a pretty clean process.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Guest

[anatess2]

20 hours ago, Suzie said:

 Is there anything wrong with just want the horrible abuse of animals to stop? I'm sincerely asking this.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the horrible abuse of animals to stop.  I'm not vegan nor vegetarian and I also want the horrible abuse of animals to stop.  So, I think the issue here is our understanding of what constitutes abuse of animals.

 

16 hours ago, Suzie said:

 

If slaughterhouses had glass windows, more people would go vegan.

Possibly.  Anthropomorphism is a common method of humans to display compassion.  But this is a First World view in my opinion.  For example, in the Philippines, slaughterhouses don't need glass windows... your backyard is a slaughterhouse.

In the Philippines, buying your chicken plastic-wrapped and in styrofoam is for the rich folks - a small subset of society like your Hollywood celebrities.  The most common food supply chain is you buy your chicken hanging off of pegs in the wet market where the chicken-seller is busily taking live chickens off the crate and slaughtering them right there and then adding the carcass to the pegs as it goes empty.  This makes it so the meat is fresh and they won't need to invest in giant refrigerators.  Chicken-sellers raise chickens free-range under their houses because chicken batteries are dang expensive to maintain - you have to buy chicken feed!

And then the next common occurrence is that you raise your own chickens in your backyard and you slaughter them when you're ready to eat your dinner.  This is how I grew up.  I slaughtered my first chicken when I became old enough to be trusted with a knife - around 6 years old or so.  Before that, I was given the lowlier task of stripping feathers.  We also had a pig that we raised to be slaughtered for Christmas dinner.  The interesting thing is the pig is our pet.  His name is Richard.  So, my mom couldn't slaughter the pig in our backyard because we named the pig.  So, instead, Richard walks all the way to the wet market early on Christmas Eve and get exchanged for a carcass and a piglet.  The piglet becomes Richard and we cook the carcass for Christmas Eve dinner.

You would think the Philippines would be the most vegan place on planet Earth...

In any case, slaughtering an animal for our food consumption does not qualify as animal abuse.  Animal abuse for us is taking a cat and taking off its claws and making it eat kibbles.  Or chopping a snake's head off just because it happened to cross your backyard.  So yeah, we have different perspectives on the matter.

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by anatess2