Priest craft


Traveler
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17 hours ago, Traveler said:

it is my impression that the Nephites of the Book of Mormon were wiped out because "priest crafts" were allowed to flourish in their society.  I believe the ideal society is based in liberty. I also believe that anyone that comes to the USA intent on liberty will be an asset.  I do not believe the current definition of legal immigration (including openness to refugees) takes that into account.  I am also on the notion that very few of those that we call the political establishment are concerned with liberty – I am inclined to think that by definition – that to become a valued asset to either of the major political parties, that one must be willing to compromise liberty for the good of the party of choice (and I understand that to be a priest craft.

 

The Traveler

Traveler, everytime you say "ideal" you know it's a unicorn.

You legal immigration process DO take into account the merits of the immigrant.  That's why it takes a while to apply for a visa.  Even just tourist visas.  It's not an easy thing to immigrate to the US. 

Political asylum, by virtue of its classification, is different because it is a humanitarian effort.  Family visas are also different because it is also humanitarian, not merit based.  This is where the changes need to occur.  And, of course, you have to stop treating illegal immigration as humanitarian virtues.

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55 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Traveler, everytime you say "ideal" you know it's a unicorn.

I do not believe in unicorns even as ideal?  I see many things in black and white.  If someone is opposed to liberty - sooner or later the result will be bloodshed between those that seek liberty and those that oppose liberty.  I do not see that it matters who is immigrant and who is borne a citizen.  The example is heaven – even in heaven war is the result of those seeking liberty and those opposing liberty and that conflict continues.  My point is that we should welcome all that seek liberty - that is all the vetting necessary

 

The Traveler

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21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I do not believe in unicorns even as ideal?  I see many things in black and white.  If someone is opposed to liberty - sooner or later the result will be bloodshed between those that seek liberty and those that oppose liberty.  I do not see that it matters who is immigrant and who is borne a citizen.  The example is heaven – even in heaven war is the result of those seeking liberty and those opposing liberty and that conflict continues.  My point is that we should welcome all that seek liberty - that is all the vetting necessary

 

The Traveler

Unicorn = outside the realm of reality.

Welcome all who seek liberty - easy to say, difficult to do.  Every culture has a completely different idea of what liberty entails.  Many Filipinos living under Martial Law believe it was liberty from Communism.  Many Germans living in Nazi Germany believe it was liberty from extreme poverty.  Americans in college campuses believe safe spaces is liberty from offense.  Etc. etc.

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Unicorn = outside the realm of reality.

Welcome all who seek liberty - easy to say, difficult to do.  Every culture has a completely different idea of what liberty entails.  Many Filipinos living under Martial Law believe it was liberty from Communism.  Many Germans living in Nazi Germany believe it was liberty from extreme poverty.  Americans in college campuses believe safe spaces is liberty from offense.  Etc. etc.

 

I have said before (other topics) that the tactic of logic that something is better than something else is not actually a viable argument for anything.  This is because, regardless of how bad something is – there is likely something worse.  An example of this kind of logic is someone justifying abuse of a child with the logic that it is not abuse because it is better than feeding the child to an alligator.

When I use the terms freedom and liberty – I assume you know what liberty and freedom is.  I do not think it is difficult to understand that liberty is protected in this country via our Constitution.  I do not think this is a difficult problem to solve.  I believe the difficulty is in attempting to make exceptions and figure out what exceptions can be mitigated (slid under the table) - that is the only possibly of complexity or difficulty of this problem according to my view of these things.

 

The Traveler

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20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

 

I have said before (other topics) that the tactic of logic that something is better than something else is not actually a viable argument for anything.  This is because, regardless of how bad something is – there is likely something worse.  An example of this kind of logic is someone justifying abuse of a child with the logic that it is not abuse because it is better than feeding the child to an alligator.

When I use the terms freedom and liberty – I assume you know what liberty and freedom is.  I do not think it is difficult to understand that liberty is protected in this country via our Constitution.  I do not think this is a difficult problem to solve.  I believe the difficulty is in attempting to make exceptions and figure out what exceptions can be mitigated (slid under the table) - that is the only possibly of complexity or difficulty of this problem according to my view of these things.

 

The Traveler

See, you're treating everybody like they believe the same things as you.  Of course, you and I have the same understanding of liberty and freedom.  My point is - not everybody agrees with us.  Heck, even in the USA who has lived under the same Constitution for almost 250 years, you have completely different ideas of what liberty entails!

It is simply untenable to expect all of them to agree with you and open your borders to anyone who you think believes in liberty.  I mean, what's the question look like - Do you believe in liberty?  Yes.  Good luck.

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

See, you're treating everybody like they believe the same things as you.  Of course, you and I have the same understanding of liberty and freedom.  My point is - not everybody agrees with us.  Heck, even in the USA who has lived under the same Constitution for almost 250 years, you have completely different ideas of what liberty entails!

It is simply untenable to expect all of them to agree with you and open your borders to anyone who you think believes in liberty.  I mean, what's the question look like - Do you believe in liberty?  Yes.  Good luck.

For the record – I am talking to you about what you believe.  I find it pointless to talk to you about what anyone else believes. Or to talk to someone else about what you believe.  It is impossible to effect one person while talking to another (unless the first is somehow listening).  Also, I do enjoy talking to you about what you believe.  I very much like your perspective on things – excluding of course what others believe.  :cool:

 

The Traveler

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Guest MormonGator
On February 28, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Traveler said:

  I believe the ideal society is based in liberty

Totally agree. 

I've noticed that everyone is a fan of liberty as long as liberty means doing what they tell you to do. 

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20 hours ago, Traveler said:

For the record – I am talking to you about what you believe.  I find it pointless to talk to you about what anyone else believes. Or to talk to someone else about what you believe.  It is impossible to effect one person while talking to another (unless the first is somehow listening).  Also, I do enjoy talking to you about what you believe.  I very much like your perspective on things – excluding of course what others believe.  :cool:

 

The Traveler

Sure.  But when it comes to organizing Society, what I believe is moral becomes secondary to what other people in Society believe is moral.  So, I can say all day long - we should all live in Liberty... exactly how that can be made to come to pass with heterogeneous people would not necessarily align with how that can be made to pass with homogeneous people.  So yes.  Borders.  Try to maintain homogeneity as much as possible through very slow, even generational, assimilation to avoid a drastic change in one's ideals of Liberty.

 

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Okay @anatess2  I have a question for you.  (wow that rimes).  What do you think??? Is the kingdom of Heaven (Celestial Kingdom) have borders or are the “borders” infinite?   Is everybody that wants to live under Celestial Law welcome or are they vetted? 

Of course, the question is a very loaded question – I hope you consider carefully what you think is actually the case.  I intend this to be a “fun’ discussion with some interesting possibilities.  :)

 

The Traveler

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38 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Okay @anatess2  I have a question for you.  (wow that rimes).  What do you think??? Is the kingdom of Heaven (Celestial Kingdom) have borders or are the “borders” infinite?   Is everybody that wants to live under Celestial Law welcome or are they vetted? 

Of course, the question is a very loaded question – I hope you consider carefully what you think is actually the case.  I intend this to be a “fun’ discussion with some interesting possibilities.  :)

 

The Traveler

Now, that's a very simple question.  Hello... Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial... BORDERS.  Extreme Vetting...  Celestial folks can visit Terrestrial but Terrestrial can't visit Celestial... etc. etc. etc.  People with complete knowledge getting segregated.  How much more for people lacking knowledge.

This is exactly what I'm telling you that you and I may have a celestial view of Liberty but others do not agree with us, so borders is good so they can stay with their terrestrial desires.

The error in the question is the consideration of only celestial people and ignoring terrestrial and telestial ones.

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Now, that's a very simple question.  Hello... Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial... BORDERS.  Extreme Vetting...  Celestial folks can visit Terrestrial but Terrestrial can't visit Celestial... etc. etc. etc.  People with complete knowledge getting segregated.  How much more for people lacking knowledge.

This is exactly what I'm telling you that you and I may have a celestial view of Liberty but others do not agree with us, so borders is good so they can stay with their terrestrial desires.

The error in the question is the consideration of only celestial people and ignoring terrestrial and telestial ones.

 

Consider the possibility that the Celestial Kingdom has no borders.  That the borders are characteristics of other kingdoms that lack liberty.  That is why a Celestial citizen can visit other kingdoms but why they cannot visit the Celestial kingdom.  The lessor kingdoms exist entirely within the borders of the Celestial Kingdom.  They are limited and bound to the borders of their lessor kingdom.  Even the word “damned” means with borders and limits.

 

The Traveler

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10 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Consider the possibility that the Celestial Kingdom has no borders.  That the borders are characteristics of other kingdoms that lack liberty.  That is why a Celestial citizen can visit other kingdoms but why they cannot visit the Celestial kingdom.  The lessor kingdoms exist entirely within the borders of the Celestial Kingdom.  They are limited and bound to the borders of their lessor kingdom.  Even the word “damned” means with borders and limits.

 

The Traveler

So if you're saying the Celestial Kingdom has no borders then what stops a Terrestrial being from entering the Celestial Kingdom?

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9 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So if you're saying the Celestial Kingdom has no borders then what stops a Terrestrial being from entering the Celestial Kingdom?

I am implying the the those kingdoms are completely contained within the Celestial Kingdom and that the borders (limits) of those kingdoms are for the only reason to limit and contain the citizens of those kingdoms only and have no effect on the Celestial.  I also believe the limits of the other kingdoms are self inflicted.  Kind of like church.  People keep themselves away all by themselves.

 

The Traveler

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Just now, Traveler said:

I am implying the the those kingdoms are completely contained within the Celestial Kingdom and that the borders (limits) of those kingdoms are for the only reason to limit and contain the citizens of those kingdoms only and have no effect on the Celestial.  I also believe the limits of the other kingdoms are self inflicted.  Kind of like church.  People keep themselves away all by themselves.

 

The Traveler

This is how I see it.  The Celestial Kingdom is there, the Terrestrial Kingdom is over there, the Telestial Kingdom is yonder.  Everybody started off in this place over here and they apply for passports.  Celestial people applied for, and received, the blue passport  Terrestrial got the brown passport, Telestial got the gray passport.

Celestial beings can enter the Terrestial Kingdom because they have a blue passport which is accepted by all Kingdoms.  Terrestrial can't enter Celestial because the brown passport cannot enter Celestial. 

People keep themselves away because they CAN'T go there even if they wish they could.

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

This is how I see it.  The Celestial Kingdom is there, the Terrestrial Kingdom is over there, the Telestial Kingdom is yonder.  Everybody started off in this place over here and they apply for passports.  Celestial people applied for, and received, the blue passport  Terrestrial got the brown passport, Telestial got the gray passport.

Celestial beings can enter the Terrestial Kingdom because they have a blue passport which is accepted by all Kingdoms.  Terrestrial can't enter Celestial because the brown passport cannot enter Celestial. 

People keep themselves away because they CAN'T go there even if they wish they could.

 

It is my understanding that G-d resides in the Celestial Kingdom and would love (desire very much) that his children would come home.  But there some that do not want to come home.  I honestly believe that those that do not spend eternity as Celestial - do so by their choice and no one else's.  No one prevents them from enjoying and living Celestial.  They, by their own choice choose something else and have no desire to change their choice - not even a little.  I cannot see any reason for a border to anything Celestial.

 

The Traveler

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Just now, Traveler said:

 

It is my understanding that G-d resides in the Celestial Kingdom and would love (desire very much) that his children would come home.  But there some that do not want to come home.  I honestly believe that those that do not spend eternity as Celestial - do so by their choice and no one else's.  No one prevents them from enjoying and living Celestial.  They, by their own choice choose something else and have no desire to change their choice - not even a little.  I cannot see any reason for a border to anything Celestial.

 

The Traveler

Yes, they chose.  Before they entered any of the Kingdoms.  The choice was made BEFORE that.  You can't progress from Terrestrial to Celestial.

Okay, so there's a Border Wall between Mexico and the USA.  Doesn't matter if it was built by Mexico or it was built by USA or it was built by China.  The fact is - there is a border wall between them.  So to say that there's a border wall around the Terrestrial Kingdom but not around the Celestial Kingdom doesn't make sense.  The border stands between them.

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18 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, they chose.  Before they entered any of the Kingdoms.  The choice was made BEFORE that.  You can't progress from Terrestrial to Celestial.

Okay, so there's a Border Wall between Mexico and the USA.  Doesn't matter if it was built by Mexico or it was built by USA or it was built by China.  The fact is - there is a border wall between them.  So to say that there's a border wall around the Terrestrial Kingdom but not around the Celestial Kingdom doesn't make sense.  The border stands between them.

 

Let me try a different method.  I believe it is possible that someone going from the lesser kingdom to the Celestial Kingdom would be more like someone trying to go from the moon to the sun.  That there is no border problem but the closer a mortal gets to the sun the more uncomfortable it will be for them.   That it would destroy them if they succeeded.    I personally believe non-Celestial stuff cannot abide Celestial law (go there) but it is not because of a border.

I think the only reason to vet someone or prevent them is because as mortals we are venerable to corruption of our culture and laws.  I agree we need to protect the innocent that may be harmed both from those that are citizens and those that are not. 

 

The Traveler

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5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Let me try a different method.  I believe it is possible that someone going from the lesser kingdom to the Celestial Kingdom would be more like someone trying to go from the moon to the sun.  That there is no border problem but the closer a mortal gets to the sun the more uncomfortable it will be for them.   That it would destroy them if they succeeded.    I personally believe non-Celestial stuff cannot abide Celestial law (go there) but it is not because of a border.

I think the only reason to vet someone or prevent them is because as mortals we are venerable to corruption of our culture and laws.  I agree we need to protect the innocent that may be harmed both from those that are citizens and those that are not. 

 

The Traveler

Okay, you shifted the conversation.

This entire time I was using the Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial as an ANALOGY to our current reality.  We were not talking about Moon to Sun borders.  That's not an analogy to our current reality.

Of course a Terrestrial Being is in the Terrestrial Kingdom because he can't abide Celestial Law.  This is also not an analogy to our current reality because people don't stay in Mexico because they can't abide by the US Constitution. 

The reason we vet someone to prevent them from entering the USA is because they don't provide a net benefit to the country.

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19 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The reason we vet someone to prevent them from entering the USA is because they don't provide a net benefit to the country.

 

 

Neither do children (some of which you personally have dumped into society) - we must convince them to be of benefit or they never will.  Interestingly we do that after they are already here.  No one I know suggests that we not allow children into this country until they are ready to be a net benefit. 

 

BTW – I am having so much fun with you I hope you will forgive me – I actually hold to many of your views but there are so many holes in the way we think and define things.

 

The Traveler

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45 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

 

Neither do children (some of which you personally have dumped into society) - we must convince them to be of benefit or they never will.  Interestingly we do that after they are already here.  No one I know suggests that we not allow children into this country until they are ready to be a net benefit. 

 

BTW – I am having so much fun with you I hope you will forgive me – I actually hold to many of your views but there are so many holes in the way we think and define things.

 

The Traveler

The children I'm dumping into the USA are CITIZENS of the USA.  They're not immigrants. 

The USA do not admit children immigrants unless they are with their parents, like my sister, who went through the vetting process to determine that her nursing skills and her husband's extraordinary artistic skills are needed by the USA.  Of course, they admitted her children as well because they, with their children provide a net benefit to the US from my sister's nursing skill and my brother-in-law's artistic skills that guarantee their children will not be a recipient of the welfare state.  The USA, of course, consider it a moral imperative to keep children with their parents* and husbands with their wives.  My brother-in-law would actually still be eligible for a visa even without his artistic skills because the USA has a shortage of nurses (baby boomer generation becoming seniors) and so my sister's nursing skills is of great benefit that offsets the non-benefit of an unskilled spouse.

* until DACA.  Now the US takes children into the US without their parents effectively being complicit in stripping them from immediate family.

No need to ask forgiveness.  I can talk about immigration all day everyday and not run out of things to say about it.

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