Somewhat frustrated with the culture of marrying super young.

[Jsmith85]

7 hours ago, kapikui said:

Yet most wives tend to spend a considerable amount of time trying to train or "fix" their husbands. 

From what I've seen it's the same in the opposite as well, It's basic human nature.

Forget trying to "fix" - Take it to Heavenly Father and He'll  bring it to what He would have and it will be just right.

[Mike]

On 2/13/2017 at 9:52 AM, MormonGator said:

... While I'm glad that the church doesn't have a high divorce rate, marrying young does increase your chances to divorce. You also don't really know who you are at 22, so how can you know someone else? The other troubling issue? It's very rare to be the same person at 40 that you were at 22. If two people can't adapt to each other at that age, the marriage might be in trouble. 

I've heard that LDS divorce rates are low, and conversely that LDS divorce rates are about the same as the national average. The latter sounds the more reasonable to me but it doesn't mean much to me either way. And I'm not sure whether to agree that one doesn't know who one is at age 22. It's certainly true that one's tastes, feelings and attitudes change throughout life, but it's also true that in middle to old age many people claim that they feel essentially the same inside as they did at age 17. Of course, every person hopes to learn wisdom as life progresses, and it's also true that there are a lot of chronologically mature adults that make pretty foolish decisions. So, I'm one who thinks that the age at which one marries is less important to the integrity of the marriage than the level of commitment the couple shares.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

I've heard that LDS divorce rates are low, and conversely that LDS divorce rates are about the same as the national average. The latter sounds the more reasonable to me but it doesn't mean much to me either way. And I'm not sure whether to agree that one doesn't know who one is at age 22. It's certainly true that one's tastes, feelings and attitudes change throughout life, but it's also true that in middle to old age many people claim that they feel essentially the same inside as they did at age 17. Of course, every person hopes to learn wisdom as life progresses, and it's also true that there are a lot of chronologically mature adults that make pretty foolish decisions. So, I'm one who thinks that the age at which one marries is less important to the integrity of the marriage than the level of commitment the couple shares.

Absolutely true. And of course everyone is different-there are, of course, people who are the same at 18 that they are at 65. 

[JohnsonJones]

28 minutes ago, Mike said:

I've heard that LDS divorce rates are low, and conversely that LDS divorce rates are about the same as the national average. The latter sounds the more reasonable to me but it doesn't mean much to me either way. And I'm not sure whether to agree that one doesn't know who one is at age 22. It's certainly true that one's tastes, feelings and attitudes change throughout life, but it's also true that in middle to old age many people claim that they feel essentially the same inside as they did at age 17. Of course, every person hopes to learn wisdom as life progresses, and it's also true that there are a lot of chronologically mature adults that make pretty foolish decisions. So, I'm one who thinks that the age at which one marries is less important to the integrity of the marriage than the level of commitment the couple shares.

I've heard varying statistics as well.  I had heard that the BYU divorce rate was actually almost 50%, which is surprising.  I've also heard that the LDS church nears the national divorce rate on average, but when you look at those who are active in the LDS church and were sealed in the temple it decreases dramatically.  It also gives rise to the adage of young woman marrying an Eagle Scout and Returned Missionary, as I think that is tossed into the mix as well with the Temple Marriage and active in the church that has the result being a far lower divorce rate in the LDS church among those individuals than those that are not included in that statistic.

Which doesn't mean you HAVE to have all of those items to have a successful marriage...at all.  It's just a statistic.  There are many in the church that have none of those that are not divorced, and those that have all of those that do get divorced.  The best thing I think is to choose wisely...if you can.  And if you can't, you can control your own stupidity and act wisely (which means be less selfish and more loving in general)...which I've been blessed with a wife who acts just like that...even when I'm an idiot.

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I've heard that LDS divorce rates are low, and conversely that LDS divorce rates are about the same as the national average. The latter sounds the more reasonable to me but it doesn't mean much to me either way. And I'm not sure whether to agree that one doesn't know who one is at age 22. It's certainly true that one's tastes, feelings and attitudes change throughout life, but it's also true that in middle to old age many people claim that they feel essentially the same inside as they did at age 17. Of course, every person hopes to learn wisdom as life progresses, and it's also true that there are a lot of chronologically mature adults that make pretty foolish decisions. So, I'm one who thinks that the age at which one marries is less important to the integrity of the marriage than the level of commitment the couple shares.

 

Statistics can be very difficult to understand.  Often in the world of science we will discard data that falls outside a certain mean deviation.   The reason for this is because often there are statistical errors or abnormalities that over skew the data based on the data sample.  For example, if we are doing the statistical analysis of the average speed of cars in a 25 mile/hour zone and our sample is five cars – if one car is traveling at a speed of 140 miles per hour – the average will be skewed too high.  And we are all aware of the statistical reference that the average human has one breast and one testicle – and there is no such individual that represents the statistical average. 

If we talk about the rate of divorce – with a sample of 10 couples and one of the couples has been married and divorced 10 times, then the statistical average is 10 divorces for 10 couples.  But even if we consider that there are 10 divorces out of 20 marriages – that skews the fact that 9 of the couples in the sample never had any divorce and all the divorces were coming from the same couple. 

With all that said – I think there are too many divorces.  I do not know what the problem really is.  I will use one example of a couple in my ward that are good friends of my wife and I (thought they are much younger – our children’s age).   We are aware of their unhappiness but it honestly appears to me that the wife was much more ambitious than the husband.   As a result, he thought she was too controlling he she thought he was a lazy bum.   So now they are divorced and her ambitions are significantly lowered – she is living as a poor single mom and he now must work too jobs to afford the minimum lifestyle he is willing to live.  They are both unhappy and worse off for the divorce but so angry with each other that they are unwilling to reconcile the harm they each feel towards each other so they each settle for less and think it the other that is at fault that they are in a worse predicament.

 

The Traveler

[Mike]

45 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Statistics can be very difficult to understand.  Often in the world of science we will discard data that falls outside a certain mean deviation.   The reason for this is because often there are statistical errors or abnormalities that over skew the data based on the data sample.  For example, if we are doing the statistical analysis of the average speed of cars in a 25 mile/hour zone and our sample is five cars – if one car is traveling at a speed of 140 miles per hour – the average will be skewed too high.  And we are all aware of the statistical reference that the average human has one breast and one testicle – and there is no such individual that represents the statistical average. 

If we talk about the rate of divorce – with a sample of 10 couples and one of the couples has been married and divorced 10 times, then the statistical average is 10 divorces for 10 couples.  But even if we consider that there are 10 divorces out of 20 marriages – that skews the fact that 9 of the couples in the sample never had any divorce and all the divorces were coming from the same couple. 

That's partly why I mentioned that it doesn't mean that much to me anyway. I suspect that some people who want to focus on the divorce rate being (let's say 6% or less) for LDS couples want to feel good about themselves as LDS; and perhaps some who prefer to focus on a rate (let's say  24% or more) have their own ulterior motives. Either way, it means nothing in terms of my own marriage. 

Quote

With all that said – I think there are too many divorces.  I do not know what the problem really is.  I will use one example of a couple in my ward that are good friends of my wife and I (thought they are much younger – our children’s age).   We are aware of their unhappiness but it honestly appears to me that the wife was much more ambitious than the husband.   As a result, he thought she was too controlling he she thought he was a lazy bum.   So now they are divorced and her ambitions are significantly lowered – she is living as a poor single mom and he now must work too jobs to afford the minimum lifestyle he is willing to live.  They are both unhappy and worse off for the divorce but so angry with each other that they are unwilling to reconcile the harm they each feel towards each other so they each settle for less and think it the other that is at fault that they are in a worse predicament.

I suspect there are many reasons and trying to identify a single problem is not very useful. I empathize with you and with your friends, or perhaps more precisely I empathize with their children. My parents divorced shortly after I returned from a mission, but their marital problems began decades earlier. Even though I was an adult I always dreamed like a child that "my mommy and daddy" would get back together. I remain convinced that although there are exceptional cases and although there are likely some people where divorce is better for all concerned, by and large more attention to commitment to one another and less attention to pride and selfishness would be good medicine.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Mike

[Rickie]

I think the pressure is only there if you allow the pressure to be there. You have to remember that you're a member of this church, you're a disciple and the only pressure on your head is your salvation, not the world's opinion.

I'm a recent convert and at the start, there was a certain person I didn't get on with and it made me not want to go to church. However, overtime I learned that the church is not their church, not their doctrine, it's the Lords and that's all that matters. I think the same goes here, people have their opinion, but the only time that opinion affects you is when it affects your relationship with God. All societies around the world have their unique culture pressures, but at the end of the day, we learn to not be of the world.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/01/to-be-in-the-world-but-not-of-the-world?lang=eng

It's easier said then done, but so is everything else in the Gospel but that's the marvelous plan.

[mrmarklin]

I think you are being very wise.  I don't know where you live, but laying a foundation for life, ie.  getting an education, a good career and purchasing a home is appropriate for the vast majority.  I don't get the LDS culture of early marriage either.

The happiest couples I've ever known have laid these sorts of foundations.  It eliminates a lot of problems such as lack of financial means, maturity, etc.

[prisonchaplain]

I may be an outlier, but having spent 7 years on the mission field, there was no way I would have met the financial recommendations being laid out here--even by 30. My fiancé and I were still in school, when we tied the knot, soon after my 31st birthday. I did not have a "living wage" job until three years later. We started, as our parents and grandparents did, with much hope and little means. We lived in low-cost apartments for the first five years of marriage, and bought our first home--an 1,100 sq ft, zero-lot right around my 36th birthday.  All that to say that if money is the only thing holding a couple back, then climb the latter from starting out to stable together. You'll appreciate each other early on, and enjoy telling the stories of roughing it through later on.

Absolutely be led by the Holy Spirit. However, be honest. Quite often we blame our own fears on God. Haste may make waste, but s/he who hesitates is lost. I truly cannot believe that the same God who permits the onset of wo/manhood to begin at 10-14, would expect the norm to be for us to marry at 30. It happens.  It happened to me. However, the norm, imho,would be a couple years out of school (or missionary work, if college is not in the plans).

[anatess2]

13 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I may be an outlier, but having spent 7 years on the mission field, there was no way I would have met the financial recommendations being laid out here--even by 30. My fiancé and I were still in school, when we tied the knot, soon after my 31st birthday. I did not have a "living wage" job until three years later. We started, as our parents and grandparents did, with much hope and little means. We lived in low-cost apartments for the first five years of marriage, and bought our first home--an 1,100 sq ft, zero-lot right around my 36th birthday.  All that to say that if money is the only thing holding a couple back, then climb the latter from starting out to stable together. You'll appreciate each other early on, and enjoy telling the stories of roughing it through later on.

Absolutely be led by the Holy Spirit. However, be honest. Quite often we blame our own fears on God. Haste may make waste, but s/he who hesitates is lost. I truly cannot believe that the same God who permits the onset of wo/manhood to begin at 10-14, would expect the norm to be for us to marry at 30. It happens.  It happened to me. However, the norm, imho,would be a couple years out of school (or missionary work, if college is not in the plans).

I think this mentality of waiting until stable to get married is more predominant in the Catholic faith where marriage and having children is very closely tied.

Roughing it out with a spouse is great (I would do so in a heartbeat if I would have met my husband before my financial affairs were "settled").  But roughing it out with a spouse and a baby is a whole 'nother story.

My husband was 21 when we got married.  I already had a bachelor's degree, a good-paying job, and a house.  My husband hasn't even started college yet and had a feast-or-famine modeling gig that he eventually gave up on.

Edited February 22, 2017 by anatess2

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Roughing it out with a spouse is great (I would do so in a heartbeat if I would have met my husband before my financial affairs were "settled").  But roughing it out with a spouse and a baby is a whole 'nother story.

True enough. That may be worthy of a whole new string. :-)  We waited five years to have our first child. Marriage and Family therapists often recommend waiting two years after marriage, before having children, so the two can learn each other, and truly become one (i.e. establish a united front with which to face/raise their kids). My wife proposed, and I agreed, that she stay home until the youngest child was in full-day school, and then finish her degree. Degree completion is tough business, but would have been all but impossible if we were not of one mind. Today we enjoy the fruits of those hard-work years. Our teens feel safe and comfortable in their home, and present as thankful and balanced. We're ecstatic with how they/we turned out. We certainly made our mistakes, but none of them would have been resolved by waiting longer.

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

We certainly made our mistakes, but none of them would have been resolved by waiting longer.

That's where starter babies come in. The youngest child from a close relative is given to the newlyweds to rear for the first n months (between 6 and 12). Make all your mistakes on someone else's child (who already has others, so they can fix what you mess up - and we all know who you're going to call when something weird starts happening, so you get a parenting network too) before having your own.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

True enough. That may be worthy of a whole new string. :-)  We waited five years to have our first child. Marriage and Family therapists often recommend waiting two years after marriage, before having children, so the two can learn each other, and truly become one (i.e. establish a united front with which to face/raise their kids). My wife proposed, and I agreed, that she stay home until the youngest child was in full-day school, and then finish her degree. Degree completion is tough business, but would have been all but impossible if we were not of one mind. Today we enjoy the fruits of those hard-work years. Our teens feel safe and comfortable in their home, and present as thankful and balanced. We're ecstatic with how they/we turned out. We certainly made our mistakes, but none of them would have been resolved by waiting longer.

I was Catholic when I got married.  In Catholic tradition, it's not proper to close yourself off from Life.  Basically, you should be prepared for the gift of Life on your wedding night even as you're applying natural family planning practices.  Interestingly, though, it took us 4 years before I got pregnant.  I thought there was something wrong with me!

That's why I have a different view about "readiness" for marriage.  I consider children in the mix.  But yes, I do believe raising children while still getting finances or education in order is possible if both husband and wife are committed to the family and they have lots of family support.  Not having money to buy a crib, a play pen, a baby stroller, etc. etc. are first world problems.

[prisonchaplain]

@anatess2  You are the expert on Catholic spirituality, but I thought that as long as the delay was natural it was okay.   In any case, by American standards, this Pentecostal preacher boy probably would have made most priests happier than many that populate the parishes. 

[anatess2]

24 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@anatess2  You are the expert on Catholic spirituality, but I thought that as long as the delay was natural it was okay.   In any case, by American standards, this Pentecostal preacher boy probably would have made most priests happier than many that populate the parishes. 

Of course it is okay.  But see... if you believe God is the provider of Life you can't say... I'm gonna have sex on my wedding night and God will never give me a kid because I don't want to yet.

[Jojo Bags]

On 2/13/2017 at 7:13 AM, CynicalBlueJay said:

Hi, all!  I just kind of need to vent a little bit, and possibly get some advice.  I've been home from my mission about two and a half years now, and I'm really starting to get tired of all the pressure to get married.  Don't get me wrong, I do want to be sealed in the temple eventually, but I feel like I don't want that to happen for a few more years.  Currently, I am 23 years old, and will be turning 24 in June.  I find myself not really agreeing with the whole "if you're not married by 25 you are a menace to society".  Honestly, I don't want to get married until I am at least 30 years old.  I just want to graduate and begin pursuing a career because I am passionate about it, not because I have to support a family.  Somewhere in that time, if I happen to meet someone that I really like, and decide I want to marry them(assuming they feel the same), I'll get married.  I really just don't like the culture of dating like crazy and marrying the first person you feel that you could stand being with the rest of your life.  To be honest, there just seems something wrong with that whole way of thinking.  On the other hand, I find it frustrating because I know people will say that "If that is how you feel, do it.", but because everyone else is getting married so young, I feel like by the time I feel like I am ready to pursue a marriage, It'll be completely hopeless for me.  Therefore, I am conflicted in my feelings.  Has anyone ever had a similar experience, or feelings about this whole thing?  Thanks!

Let me ask you this: what will you do if you pass up opportunities or if you do not make an honest effort to get married when the opportunity arises and then you die?  What makes you think God will be understanding that you passed up that opportunity and decided to do other things less important like school?  The "pressure" you're talking about is from God, not other members or the church leadership.  It is not a "culture," it is a commandment.  You will be held accountable for not getting married or not making an honest effort to get married when you could have, but put it off.