Somewhat frustrated with the culture of marrying super young.


CynicalBlueJay
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1 hour ago, Vort said:

My wife foolishly married at 20. I was wise and waited until 25.

My wife and I have an even greater age difference.  I often say that I had to wait until I was mature enough to marry my wife.

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1 hour ago, CynicalBlueJay said:

I would say that it is more an attitude of not wanting to actively search for someone to marry, until I feel I am ready to get married.  I

Yes, I read you other post clarifying this statement in bold.  I myself was quite old (by LDS standards) when I got married.  My wife and I have a huge age gap (by anyone's standards).  For me the truth was that I was actively looking.  And I had many failures.  After all, who would want to marry a devilishly handsome, perfectly well-mannered, highly intelligent, and completely humble man with tremendous earning potential.  But that's beside the point.

When I met my wife-to-be, there certainly was something very special that happened.  I won't go into details because I don't think it likely to happen to others.  But I definitely knew the Lord wanted me to marry this girl.  And eventually I talked her into it.

But about the statement in red (above) I don't think that is realistic.  Marriage is pretty much an on-the-job training sort of gig.  You definitely want to listen to the Lord.  You definitely want to do your due diligence when selecting a mate.  But to think you have to wait "until you are ready" really doesn't make sense.  

Yes, I know, you've probably been told this before.  You've rolled your eyes at it because "no on is ever fully read" is not the same as "being as ready as possible".  That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that unmarried folks have a false notion of what is required for marriage readiness.  I will admit that I was not ready.  I mean that I have so many problems that I'm surprised my wife didn't walk out on me in the first month.  But a huge part of marriage is self-sacrifice.  It also means being flexible enough to become more like your mate and let her become more like you so you can become one.

If you're going to wait until you're "pretty set" then are you going to require that she come all the way to your way of being?  While you certainly want to be worthy to go to the temple, the rest comes from learning to sacrifice.  And you more easily learn that when you love someone so much that you are truly motivated to sacrifice.

I know I've said enough already.  So, I guess I'll leave this thread.  Whatever you decide, I hope all the best.

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10 hours ago, CynicalBlueJay said:

 I just want to graduate and begin pursuing a career because I am passionate about it, not because I have to support a family.  Somewhere in that time, if I happen to meet someone that I really like, and decide I want to marry them(assuming they feel the same), I'll get married.

Perfectly reasonable to me.

 

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3 hours ago, CynicalBlueJay said:

I definitely do see a difference.  My parents, my mom especially, have a bad habit of being a little bit too controlling.  No shade on them, of course, they just want to see me be happy, and I understand that.  When she/they ask, it most definitely has a tone of urgency and "hurry up and get married already".  It does get a bit annoying from time to time, seeing as I am going on 24 years old.

@CynicalBlueJay, your parents come from that generation where RMs married quickly after returning. They don't seem to understand that your generation does not work the same way. You may just have to be honest with them about how the marriage culture in the LDS Church is changing.

M.

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1 hour ago, Suzie said:

Perfectly reasonable to me.

 

It is...  Now when was the last time you meet someone who's life went "Perfectly," and "Reasonably" according to their plans?

When we realize that life is unpredictable, then we know we shouldn't let something important pass us by because it didn't fit into our plans of the moment

 

 

Edited by estradling75
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10 minutes ago, Maureen said:

@CynicalBlueJay, your parents come from that generation where RMs married quickly after returning. They don't seem to understand that your generation does not work the same way. You may just have to be honest with them about how the marriage culture in the LDS Church is changing.

Very good point. This might be because I'm a snotnosed young punk, but I think a lot of times some people from an older generation view everything they did as correct and when young people do the slightest thing differently, they don't understand it. IE-My grandmother never understood how it would be okay that the beautiful LadyGator would call me, even after we had been dating for over a year! She was from the generation where that was inappropriate (girl calling the guy). My grandmother absolutely adores LG, for the record. 

Edited by MormonGator
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5 hours ago, estradling75 said:

It is...  Now when was the last time you meet someone who's life went "Perfectly," and "Reasonably" according to their plans?

When we realize that life is unpredictable, then we know we shouldn't let something important pass us by because it didn't fit into our plans of the moment

 

 

True, hence my reply when the OP said " Somewhere in that time, if I happen to meet someone that I really like, and decide I want to marry them(assuming they feel the same), I'll get married."

 

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Very good point. This might be because I'm a snotnosed young punk, but I think a lot of times some people from an older generation view everything they did as correct and when young people do the slightest thing differently, they don't understand it. IE-My grandmother never understood how it would be okay that the beautiful LadyGator would call me, even after we had been dating for over a year! She was from the generation where that was inappropriate (girl calling the guy). My grandmother absolutely adores LG, for the record. 

The converse of this, of course, is assuming that since our parents did something a certain way; it is no longer fashionable or practical or reasonable or even possible.  

Delaying marriage (and by implication) childbearing, does have real-world ramifications that may or may not be considered desirable.  Each family has to weigh those consequences for themselves and act accordingly; but as a general principle--at least in Mormonland--I think that the notion that a career (whether for a man or for a woman) is supposed to facilitate one's family life, rather than vice versa, is a facet of our culture that won't be going away anytime soon.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The converse of this, of course, is assuming that since our parents did something a certain way; it is no longer fashionable or practical or even possible.  

 

Oh of course, that's wrong too. Just because something is a tradition doesn't mean it's bad and should be discontinued. For sure, totally agree. 

That said, I think it happens much much more in the case that I initially described-older generations assuming that the new is incorrect. 

Here we go with a classic generation gap debate @Just_A_Guy :)

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I am a little conflicted here.  On one hand, I want to tell OP to relax, that he is only 23, and that marriage has a way of finding many (but not all) people naturally when they follow the gospel, and that the "menace to society" quote was for a different time (and was probably hyperbole).  I also want to tell him that his dating life is no one else's business, and people shouldn't be prodding.

On the other hand, I think there is some truth to the fact that there are consequences for delaying dating and marriage.  I knew several guys back when I was in the singles ward who were turning 30 and who refused to date or make any efforts towards marriage, despite many opportunities (these guys were apparently, fairly, um... desirable).  Many of them believed they would get around to it "someday".  These guys are now in their mid 40s, and I have noticed that most of them are still single.  I am not judging their choices, and it is none of my business what they do with their lives, but one can see that while these brothers may yet marry, experiencing fatherhood (which is one of the most important things we can do in this life) is realistically probably not in the cards for them at this point.  Kind of tragic, when you think about it, especially considering how few good priesthood holders there are in the world.  I don't know if these guys just got too comfortable and set in their ways by being single, or what... but because so many of these guys never married, perhaps there is some truth to the idea that if you put off marriage too long, it slowly gets harder and harder to find a wife after you hit 30 or so.

So, perhaps some good advice lies somewhere in between.  It is not death to be single at 23.  However, keep an open mind about marriage, always be doing something to further your search for a good spouse (that means going on dates here and there, at least), and certainly don't resist marriage if it comes your way.  Marriage (and fatherhood) is a wonderful blessing, and is totally worth making sacrifices to obtain.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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8 hours ago, CynicalBlueJay said:

 I really just don't like the culture of dating like crazy and marrying the first person you feel that you could stand being with the rest of your life.

Just for my own edification (and others beside CBJ are welcome to chime in), is this actually Mormon dating and courtship culture that singles are only seeking marriage with someone they can tolerate? Or is this a subculture (majority or minority)?

Edited by mordorbund
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9 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Just for my own edification (and others beside CBJ are welcome to chime in), is this actually Mormon dating and courtship culture that singles are only seeking marriage with someone they can tolerate? Or is this a subculture (majority or minority)?

It does not sound like Mormon dating and courtship culture that I am aware of.   But I have been out of the loop for awhile.

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26 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I don't know if these guys just got too comfortable and set in their ways by being single, or what... but because so many of these guys never married, perhaps there is some truth to the idea that if you put off marriage too long, it slowly gets harder and harder to find a wife after you hit 30 or so.

Indeed.  One point you often see made (it may have come up in this thread) is that "at ___, you don't really know who you are yet".  That is strictly true; but it's also worth noting that I didn't know who I was at 5--but at 35, I still manage to get along pretty decently with my parents.  

Obviously you don't want to marry someone who turns out to be an axe murderer; or who does things that drive you battle, or whose life plan/fundamental values are incompatible with your own; and it will inevitably take some time to do your due diligence on those sorts of issues.  But I think there also needs to be a sense of realism that whether you marry at 20 or at 30 or at 60--you as well as your mate will still be a "work in progress"; people are still going to grow and change and be a different person 10 years down the road; and marriage entails a mutual commitment to undertake that growing process together, to consciously foster the kinds of growth in yourself that your partner finds acceptable, and to accept the results of your partner's own growth.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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One other thought (and please pardon me if it has already been brought up) - With this 'when I'm 30' plan - you are sending a signal to those you date/courtship that your career and 'passion' for it is a higher priority than marriage/family.  I don't know any woman who wants to hear that she would be second fiddle to career pursuits.  There have been times that my husband has gone to whatever lengths he has needed to to take time off because I needed him more than his employer.

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6 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Indeed.  One point you often see made (it may have come up in this thread) is that "at ___, you don't really know who you are yet".  That is strictly true; but it's also worth noting that I didn't know who I was at 5--but at 35, I still manage to get along pretty decently with my parents.  

To be blunt, it's a bogus point, even if true. I'm not "the same man" now that I was when I was 35. Does that mean I should have waited until 40+ (or 50+) to marry? The fact is, my wife and I have grown up together in some sense. We have very important shared history, starting from our early adulthood. My wife is not yet 50, yet we have spent more than half of our lives together. That is a point that the proponents of "don't marry young" seem always to miss.

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18 hours ago, CynicalBlueJay said:

 Eternal marriage with someone I genuinely want to spend eternity with is most definitely my first priority.  What I meant to say in writing that(granted it was a horrible way of putting it), was that I don't want to get married for the sole purpose that it is the next step in my eternal progression.  When I get married, I want to be getting married because I've found someone that I have personally decided I want to spend eternity with. 

I think this is the right attitude. :)  I love much of the advice you have already been given already.  Just gotta add my two cents on two things:

Follow the spirit...do what you feel impressed to do--guided by the Spirit--regardless of pressure from anyone else.  My husband and I were 33 and 28 when we got married.  It wasn't because he was waiting...he was almost engaged three times before he met me, but the Spirit kept telling him no.  (I've met two of his ex's, they are nice people.)  I'm sure glad he listened to the Spirit.  We have been married 22 years now and are very happy.

Second, while it may not be right for you, studies show that marrying "young" does actually lead to more success in marriage.  I'm currently a Marriage and Family undergrad student and we talked about this in my marriage and family class last semester.  I remember it distinctly because my son got married shortly after his mission, and I thought, "Statistics are in their favor." :)  And also "Wow, the church leaders are right again, cool."

 But again, follow the Spirit. When people bug you about it, just smile and say, "I haven't found anyone that will have me yet."  That response will be less likely to get you a "lecture" or well-meaning advice than if you tell them you are waiting until you are 30.

About all the "good ones" being gone...I love Just-A-Guy's response.  No worries there are more single women that age in the church than men, you'll be fine.  Once again...follow the Spirit.  

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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10 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Just for my own edification (and others beside CBJ are welcome to chime in), is this actually Mormon dating and courtship culture that singles are only seeking marriage with someone they can tolerate? Or is this a subculture (majority or minority)?

I don't see it.  Granted I am from the "older generation" I suppose, but my son, who married shortly after returning from his mission married for love.  I know this because I could tell even before he admitted it to himself that he was in love.  (It was adorable. :) )  

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21 hours ago, CynicalBlueJay said:

Hi, all!  I just kind of need to vent a little bit, and possibly get some advice.  I've been home from my mission about two and a half years now, and I'm really starting to get tired of all the pressure to get married.  Don't get me wrong, I do want to be sealed in the temple eventually, but I feel like I don't want that to happen for a few more years.  Currently, I am 23 years old, and will be turning 24 in June.  I find myself not really agreeing with the whole "if you're not married by 25 you are a menace to society".  Honestly, I don't want to get married until I am at least 30 years old.  I just want to graduate and begin pursuing a career because I am passionate about it, not because I have to support a family.  Somewhere in that time, if I happen to meet someone that I really like, and decide I want to marry them(assuming they feel the same), I'll get married.  I really just don't like the culture of dating like crazy and marrying the first person you feel that you could stand being with the rest of your life.  To be honest, there just seems something wrong with that whole way of thinking.  On the other hand, I find it frustrating because I know people will say that "If that is how you feel, do it.", but because everyone else is getting married so young, I feel like by the time I feel like I am ready to pursue a marriage, It'll be completely hopeless for me.  Therefore, I am conflicted in my feelings.  Has anyone ever had a similar experience, or feelings about this whole thing?  Thanks!

In the Summer between when I finished Year 10 and started Year 11, I made a plan for my life for the next ten years. It was pretty straight forward. I would take two years to finish high school, do a year of uni, work for a year to save money for a mission, serve a mission for two years and then spend the next four years getting a degree – ten years. What I deliberately left out of my plan was when I would get married and what I would study after my mission. I left marriage out of my plan because I didn’t think it was the kind of thing I could plan for, I mean, who knows when it will happen? I deliberately left my study plans vague because I’d known too many returned missionaries who returned from their missions with completely different perspective and goals than what they had before their mission.

I followed my ten year plan fairly closely – took a year longer to save the mission money than planned but made up that year my completing my course a year sooner than planned, so I still ended up where and when I planned to be.

I served my mission in a land of beautiful people and I soon came to love these people. Whilst on my mission, some women made some sort of impression on me and I filed them away in the back of my mind under the heading “might be worth getting to know better at a more appropriate time.” By the end of my mission there were perhaps 8 or so people on this list. Once I had finished my mission and was back home most of the people on this list faded further into the back of my mind, but there was one person who did not fade. In fact, for no reason that I can properly explain, she became more prominent. I began to include her in the several letters that I was sending each month to former mission friends and although the letters I was sending to her were not substantially different from the letters I was sending to other friends, and her replies were not substantially different, the feeling became stronger. After I had been home for 11 months, and exchanging occasional letters with her and several other male and female mission friends, while walking to the train station to catch the train to school the Spirit prompted me very strongly that she was the one. I decided to accept this revelation. At this point, she was about 6 or 8 weeks away from finishing her mission. I thought that I should wait until she had been home from her mission for about two months and then I would write to her and tell her how I felt. I thought she needed two months to adjust to post-mission life because I felt that in that transition between mission and post-mission life, a person’s decision making processes are not the same as they usually are. But then the Spirit prompted me again, saying that I needed to act immediately. So I prepared a voice tape in which I told her of my experience and my desire to talk with her about marriage and then I mailed the tape to the Philippines timed to arrive so that it would be waiting for her when she got home from her mission. Due to some flooding in her home town the mail service was delayed for a few days, so she ended up arriving home before the tape did. Its good that I acted when I did because, unbeknown to me, she’d had a boyfriend for a year or two before her mission, and before she went on her mission they had already made post-mission plans.

This is getting long, and perhaps not entirely relevant, so I’m going to cut a lot of stuff out. She got home in late October, I finished the first year of my degree at about the same time. I went to the Philippines in January with the intention of getting to know her better and starting preparations for a marriage in the semester break the following June-July. We ended up deciding to get married there and then, which we did. I had not gone to the Philippines to get married, and was not mentally or financially prepared for it, but that’s what we did. After a two week honeymoon, during which we visited all but one of our former mission areas together (her last companion was still in the same area in which they had served together) I had to leave her and come back home to Australia to start second year uni. I did not see her again for almost another 6 months while we worked through the immigration process.

When she arrived, I was in the second semester of my second year, with another year to go. I had no job and no car and only the day before, had moved out of my parent’s place, into our tiny one bedroom apartment, furnished with borrowed and second hand furniture. Six weeks after she arrived I was down to my last $80 when she found a job, and I found a part time job shortly after.

That’s how it was for me.

So, to address a few of your points:

I married because it is a commandment to do so. If it was not, I don’t know if I would have got married. However, having shown my willingness to obey this commandment, the Lord did most of the rest of the work by bringing my wife and I together. She married me because after praying about it several times in the Temple, she finally accepted the answer she had been fighting against. We were married in February. It wasn’t until the following October that she told me for the first time that she loved me. It was a marriage based on faith, not love.

We hadn’t dated before we decided to get married and hardly knew each other. Nevertheless, because of the guidance of the Spirit and the answers we had received to prayer, we knew that it was the right thing to marry each other.

I hadn’t finished my education and had no idea what career I would pursue when I got married.

The timing of our decision when to get married was very heavily influenced by the counsel of Spencer W Kimball who counselled that marriage should not be delayed. When I went to the Philippines in mid January, I had no plan, no intention, no idea, that I would be married a month later.

Today is our 28th wedding anniversary.

You sound keen to pursue a career. I imagine the satisfaction and enjoyment you would gain from that would only be increased if you have someone to share it with. I also imagine that if you marry the right person, you will be even more motivated to study harder and to try harder to find the career you would like, and, more importantly, you will be more likely to succeed.  In all likelihood, she will help you succeed in what it is you want to do. If your education and career goals are important to you, they will become even more important and more joy filled, when you are married.

My son is in a similar situation to you. He turns 24 in about ten days, and has been home from his mission for about 2 ½ years. He dates out of a sense of duty with no real hope or belief that he will find anyone of eternal interest in our stake. He’s favourably disposed towards the idea of marriage and says if the right person comes along, he will make an effort, but right now he doesn’t seem to be too willing to try too hard to do anything about it. He knows what is right so we leave it to him.

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