LDS Perspectives: Depression and Mental Health Myths


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53 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Wrong. 

Your MD is from....?

OK, my secular, wisdom of the world believing friend, you are so positive of your superior knowledge, show me one test; just one that proves depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain.  Not a theory, or a wild guess, or a "we think."   Just one single test.  You can even look at rigged big pharma studies.  Do some research and look up any doctor you trust or any pshrink.  

 

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Tried to work a Tom Cruise joke into this thread to make fun of the anti-psychology people, but it just came out tasteless.  Sigh.

(That said, mental illness is no laughing matter!  It is very real and often requires competent medical treatment and/or medication.  Get help if you or a loved one needs it, folks.  God answers prayers through psychiatrists sometimes, too!)

Edited by DoctorLemon
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28 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

@Jojo Bags , please tell me why you think Elder Holland and Elder Morrison would advise members of the church to seek medical help when needed? 

Because all too many Saints lack the faith to be healed.   Because Latter-day Saints believe more in doctors than in faith and the power of the priesthood.  I know that faith works because I have been healed from some horrible afflictions through faith and the power of the priesthood.  I have seen it in action in my life and in the lives of others who believe more in faith than the wisdom of the world.  Psychiatry was promoted by the likes of Sigmund Fraud and Carl Jung.  Both were atheists who denied the existence of God and Christ.  They built psychiatry on a flawed foundation.  In law enforcement, it's called, "the fruit of the poisonous tree."  That means that anything springing from a flawed foundation is also flawed.

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1 minute ago, Jojo Bags said:

Because all too many Saints lack the faith to be healed.   Because Latter-day Saints believe more in doctors than in faith and the power of the priesthood.  I know that faith works because I have been healed from some horrible afflictions through faith and the power of the priesthood.  I have seen it in action in my life and in the lives of others who believe more in faith than the wisdom of the world.  Psychiatry was promoted by the likes of Sigmund Fraud and Carl Jung.  Both were atheists who denied the existence of God and Christ.  They built psychiatry on a flawed foundation.  In law enforcement, it's called, "the fruit of the poisonous tree."  That means that anything springing from a flawed foundation is also flawed.

@Jojo Bags Did Elder Holland lack faith to be healed when he was in the grips of depression?

Are you really suggesting that the Brethren are leading the Saints down false paths because, "Well, they don't have enough faith to do it the right way. [shrug] I guess we'll just advise the wrong way."

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7 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Because all too many Saints lack the faith to be healed.   Because Latter-day Saints believe more in doctors than in faith and the power of the priesthood.  I know that faith works because I have been healed from some horrible afflictions through faith and the power of the priesthood.  I have seen it in action in my life and in the lives of others who believe more in faith than the wisdom of the world.  Psychiatry was promoted by the likes of Sigmund Fraud and Carl Jung.  Both were atheists who denied the existence of God and Christ.  They built psychiatry on a flawed foundation.  In law enforcement, it's called, "the fruit of the poisonous tree."  That means that anything springing from a flawed foundation is also flawed.

Even from a purely secular perspective, I don't think anyone here is trying to say that psychiatry isn't a flawed science. The nature of the human mind and mental illness still have an element of mystery to them. That's why people like my mother have to have their meds adjusted from time to time. But guess what? She's always been much better off with meds than without. That, combined with her faith, is what gives her the ability to get through the day. Get it through your head, faith and modern medicine are not mutually exclusive

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14 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

How about a few other quotes while we're at it. 

And this one

And another.

And this one.

Another one.

And finally.

Just about everything in this life comes down to faith.  The problem with many LDS is that they cherry-pick what they think faith applies to.  Obviously, for many, it doesn't apply to healing or being healed.  I will rely on faith and Christ, not a profession that denies the existence of both of them.

First, when will you directly address the questions that are posed to you instead of constantly try to avoid them? Or is it that you are afraid to clearly state that you do not agree with the words of a GA? Personally, I do not see anything wrong if you do, but just say so. My question was clear and yet you did not answer it directly.

You seem to have a very restrictive way of thinking, either doctors or faith even though you have claimed in other posts that you do believe doctors have their place. No one argues the power of faith and the power of the Priesthood, why is it so hard for you to understand that? And yet we are presenting to you quotes from Church leaders stating that sometimes BOTH are NECESSARY. Why do you have an issue with that? Furthermore, you make a very appalling and irresponsible statement stating that  "depression is a disease of the spirit, not the body.". Are you a medical doctor? This is your OPINION, as misguided and dangerous as it it, and should be stated as such: "In my opinion..."

Please provide MODERN quotes from Church leaders (and official sources) stating CLEARLY that ALL we need to do is to have Faith and not rely on doctors to be healed. I personally challenge you to provide those quotes.

The journal of discourses is not an official publication of the Church.

 

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It's probably worth noting that President Young's counsel was tailored to the time and place in which he had grew up.  The germ theory hadn't yet revolutionized medicine; Young was only a generation away from the "doctors" who killed George Washington by bleeding him to death. 

Young's towards healers were never so clear-cut as the selectively cited quotes JoJoBags offers; and as medical practice advanced through the late 19th century his attitudes evolved.  By the end of his life he was even "calling" promising young Mormons and sending them on missions to obtain medical training at eastern institutions.

See https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V12N03_30.pdf for more.  Note that the article contains a Young quote lambasting Mormons who immediately called for priesthood blessings without first taking advantage of proven common-sense remedies; saying that one may as well expect God to help one's crops to grow without bothering to actually plant the seeds.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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There are many good therapists who obtain the best of wisdom, and who are able to blend that with their faith. Even psychologytoday.com's "find a therapist" feature allows filtering for religion. There is "Christian" and there is "Mormon."  One of my counseling professors described the Christian use of psychological wisdom as "robbing the Egyptians."  That era was far more anti-psychology (within the church) than today--yet, here we are...

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9 hours ago, Eowyn said:

@Jojo Bags Did Elder Holland lack faith to be healed when he was in the grips of depression?

Are you really suggesting that the Brethren are leading the Saints down false paths because, "Well, they don't have enough faith to do it the right way. [shrug] I guess we'll just advise the wrong way."

Where in his talk did he say he went to a doctor?  He didn't.

No, I'm not suggesting the Brethren are leading people down the garden path.  I am saying that because of lack of faith in the power of the faith and priesthood that the brethren are telling people to go to doctors.  This is the exact same thing that the brethren have been saying for years, and its the same thing taught in the scriptures.  Go back and read my replies with the quotes from Brigham Young, Jedidiah Grant, Erastus Snow and Franklin Richards, especially Richards.

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2 hours ago, Suzie said:

First, when will you directly address the questions that are posed to you instead of constantly try to avoid them? Or is it that you are afraid to clearly state that you do not agree with the words of a GA? Personally, I do not see anything wrong if you do, but just say so. My question was clear and yet you did not answer it directly.

You seem to have a very restrictive way of thinking, either doctors or faith even though you have claimed in other posts that you do believe doctors have their place. No one argues the power of faith and the power of the Priesthood, why is it so hard for you to understand that? And yet we are presenting to you quotes from Church leaders stating that sometimes BOTH are NECESSARY. Why do you have an issue with that? Furthermore, you make a very appalling and irresponsible statement stating that  "depression is a disease of the spirit, not the body.". Are you a medical doctor? This is your OPINION, as misguided and dangerous as it it, and should be stated as such: "In my opinion..."

Please provide MODERN quotes from Church leaders (and official sources) stating CLEARLY that ALL we need to do is to have Faith and not rely on doctors to be healed. I personally challenge you to provide those quotes.

The journal of discourses is not an official publication of the Church and

 

Oh, please.  Give me a break.  Perhaps you can explain why our modern apostles and prophets quote the past apostles and prophets.  They are quoted constantly.  All you are doing is cherry-picking what you want to accept. The Journal of Discourses is quoted constantly by church leaders, except those JOD quotes are put in other books, which are used to quote from.  Using your logic, then we should not read or accept any of the writings of the apostles and prophets not contained in official sources.  We should only accept or read the scriptures and the official magazines of the Church.  Also by your reasoning we should not even look at the Bible Dictionary because it "is not intended as a revealed treatment or official version of doctrinal, historical, cultural, chronological, and other matters...." 

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3 hours ago, Godless said:

Even from a purely secular perspective, I don't think anyone here is trying to say that psychiatry isn't a flawed science. The nature of the human mind and mental illness still have an element of mystery to them. That's why people like my mother have to have their meds adjusted from time to time. But guess what? She's always been much better off with meds than without. That, combined with her faith, is what gives her the ability to get through the day. Get it through your head, faith and modern medicine are not mutually exclusive

If you read any of my responses, you will see that I have suffered from several disorders, and I took the doctor path and the drug path.  What healed me was faith in Christ and the power of the priesthood. 

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22 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

There are many good therapists who obtain the best of wisdom, and who are able to blend that with their faith. Even psychologytoday.com's "find a therapist" feature allows filtering for religion. There is "Christian" and there is "Mormon."  One of my counseling professors described the Christian use of psychological wisdom as "robbing the Egyptians."  That era was far more anti-psychology (within the church) than today--yet, here we are...

I have nothing against psychologists who have their therapy based in Christ.  I have turned to psychologists in the past and have been helped.  It's the psychiatrists that I have a serious problem with.  They have nothing to do with therapy; they are drug pushers.

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Just now, Jojo Bags said:

If you read any of my responses, you will see that I have suffered from several disorders, and I took the doctor path and the drug path.  What healed me was faith in Christ and the power of the priesthood. 

Great. I'm truly glad to hear it. Now please accept that the experiences of the millions of other people who suffer from mental illness differ from your own. And for many of them, the power of your priesthood isn't enough to heal them. And that fact has nothing to do with their level of faith, but the nature of their afflictions. Faith can be a powerful weapon against mental illness, but it isn't always enough.

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Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, Godless said:

Great. I'm truly glad to hear it. Now please accept that the experiences of the millions of other people who suffer from mental illness differ from your own. And for many of them, the power of your priesthood isn't enough to heal them. And that fact has nothing to do with their level of faith, but the nature of their afflictions. Faith can be a powerful weapon against mental illness, but it isn't always enough.

Exactly. 

The reason so many people are passionate about it is because there are real consequences for the anti-psychiatry way of thinking. Thankfully, as people learn more about modern science I am 100% confident that those who still babble about the dangers of anti-depression medication will be the equal of the flat earth society in a decade or so. We accept that they have the right to their own views, but 99% view them as a fringe belief, not to be taken seriously.

Edited by MormonGator
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40 minutes ago, Jojo Bags said:

Oh, please.  Give me a break.  Perhaps you can explain why our modern apostles and prophets quote the past apostles and prophets.  They are quoted constantly.  All you are doing is cherry-picking what you want to accept. The Journal of Discourses is quoted constantly by church leaders, except those JOD quotes are put in other books, which are used to quote from.  Using your logic, then we should not read or accept any of the writings of the apostles and prophets not contained in official sources.  We should only accept or read the scriptures and the official magazines of the Church.  Also by your reasoning we should not even look at the Bible Dictionary because it "is not intended as a revealed treatment or official version of doctrinal, historical, cultural, chronological, and other matters...." 

I am all about reading the JOD, and quoting our leaders past and present, but JOD is not doctrinal, it is one man's opinions.  Many of which are flawed. You talk about cherry picking your the poster boy for it.

If you want doctrine look to the 4 standard works, and the various declarations approved of by the 12 and ratified by the body of the church.  

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On 2/24/2017 at 0:45 PM, Jane_Doe said:

( I posted this in the other thread too, but thought it revenant here as well) 

When I met my now MIL, she was a stiff woman.  Not unkind... just zero warm and fuzzies.  When she said she wanted to see her granddaughter, *see* was the key word: she didn't want to play, to interact, or anything like that.  Just *see*.  My husband told me that this is "just how his mom is", and she's gotten more and more that way though the years.

Well, last fall we found out my MIL had a brain tumor.  Not cancerous (thank God!) but huge (the size of a small mellon).  This tumor had been growing in her brain for ~30 years, squishing her brain matter, specifically the parts involved with creativity and emotional connection.  Since having the tumor removed, MIL is a COMPLETELY different person- like watching her change from being in black-and-white to bright technicolor!   She loves to come visit, play cars with granddaughter, invites us to go to the rodeo, and wants to be so involved.

Yes, scientific understanding of how the brain works is in it's infancy.  We also can change our brains through training (counseling/outlooks/etc) and prayer.  But to say that the physical brain plays zero role in how a person behaves is (in my experience) completely untrue.  

@Jojo Bags, what would you think of my MIL's story?  Do you see her story as 100% due to lack of faith?

Edited by Jane_Doe
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I get and support what jojo is saying. There is a difference between medical and mental. A tumor in the brain falls into medical because it is something about the body that can be observed and operated on. Why wont anybody address jojo's assertion that depression cannot be tested for on the brain and yet they are putting drugs into our physical bodies? Its a bit facetious in my opinion to read what hes saying about purely mental problems and psychiatrists pushing pills and then ask him to prove stuff about tumors and flu shots. 

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30 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

There is a difference between medical and mental. 

There's a lot of overlap actually.  My MIL is again a clear example.

30 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

 A tumor in the brain falls into medical because it is something about the body that can be observed and operated on. 

If we were having this conversation before the technology existed to see the brain tumor, would that have made her issues any less real?  No!    Just because we don't have the technology/knowledge to understand things going on, doesn't mean that they are even less real or valid.  Just means we don't understand them well.   

30 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

 Why wont anybody address jojo's assertion that depression cannot be tested for on the brain and yet they are putting drugs into our physical bodies?  

Many medicines have existed because we understood the mechanisms behind the ailments and the treatment.  A classic example of this is willow bark/salix/Asprin.  

No one is denying that this medicine is very much in it's infancy and there are false/bad medicines out there.  Also not denying that a person should also receive counseling, be carefully monitored, and be spiritually guided.  We're just also not denying the fact that there are some physical health components here, and sometimes medical treatment can help.  My MIL's stiffness is one such example.  Most other examples just don't have such obvious causes.

Edited by Jane_Doe
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So we need more information and that gives psychiatrists the license to just guess and prescribe without any tests or concrete evidence of an imbalance? We get to be guinea pigs like when housewives would get prescribed straight up cocaine by their doctors decades ago? Sounds like an exercise in secular faith if I ever heard of one. 

Again stop using your grandmother as an example. Unless all depression is created by tumors then it is an example of a concrete phyisical illness being fixed through physical means. Yes there is overlap but when you find the physical then you treat it physically. We're talking about the tendency to treat depression with NO knowledge of a physical cause with physical/hormonal affecting medicines. 

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6 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Oh, please.  Give me a break.  Perhaps you can explain why our modern apostles and prophets quote the past apostles and prophets.  They are quoted constantly.  All you are doing is cherry-picking what you want to accept. The Journal of Discourses is quoted constantly by church leaders, except those JOD quotes are put in other books, which are used to quote from.  Using your logic, then we should not read or accept any of the writings of the apostles and prophets not contained in official sources.  We should only accept or read the scriptures and the official magazines of the Church.  Also by your reasoning we should not even look at the Bible Dictionary because it "is not intended as a revealed treatment or official version of doctrinal, historical, cultural, chronological, and other matters...." 

Basically, you have no quotes from modern leaders supporting the reckless statement that "depression is a "disease" of the spirit". Since you liked Just_A_Guy 's post, hope at least you understood the historical background of the quotes you provided.

On this thread, people have provided important quotes from modern leaders and you still refuse to acknowledge their validity. Instead, you choose to be fixated in what you want to believe. Now, you have the right to have any kind of opinion,  not a problem with that as long as you express it as such: Your personal opinion but when you want to make it sound like fact, particularly in such important issue I have a big problem with that because there are people who might be reading this and might take into consideration the foolishness of your statement and hurt them in the end. I work with people with depression on a daily basis and what you are saying is absolutely non-sense, one of the most irresponsible and ignorant statements I have heard in a while. I do not think you want to hurt people but please stop thinking about yourself for a minute here and  think before typing, you might end up hurting someone indirectly.

 

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4 hours ago, a mustard seed said:

So we need more information and that gives psychiatrists the license to just guess and prescribe without any tests or concrete evidence of an imbalance? We get to be guinea pigs like when housewives would get prescribed straight up cocaine by their doctors decades ago? Sounds like an exercise in secular faith if I ever heard of one. 

Again stop using your grandmother as an example. Unless all depression is created by tumors then it is an example of a concrete phyisical illness being fixed through physical means. Yes there is overlap but when you find the physical then you treat it physically. We're talking about the tendency to treat depression with NO knowledge of a physical cause with physical/hormonal affecting medicines. 

Since you liked most of JoJo's posts...do you also agree with him that depression is a disease of the spirit and not the body?

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