LDS Perspectives: Depression and Mental Health Myths

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, a mustard seed said:

So we need more information and that gives psychiatrists the license to just guess and prescribe without any tests or concrete evidence of an imbalance? We get to be guinea pigs like when housewives would get prescribed straight up cocaine by their doctors decades ago? 

No one is forcing anything on any one.  Just offering something which may help and has helped many people (even if we don't understand the mechanisms behind it).  Anyone is free to decline, no shame about it.

A person's choice to try a medicine does not somehow make their spiritual faith less or more.  Please quit trying to make this a false dichotomy.  

 

[a mustard seed]

3 minutes ago, Suzie said:

Since you liked most of JoJo's posts...do you also agree with him that depression is a disease of the spirit and not the body?

I cant say that definitively can I? I agree with what hes said about it because I think in certain situations it can be a spiritual affliction and it is case by case. For me and jojo medication and even secular therapy did not work but for eowyn it does. It could be some physiological condition that they are unaware of is being solved just the way there was nothing physically wrong with me to warrant medication.

The points I like that he made are about the flippancy with which psychiatrists prescribe medication despite how little they know about what these medications do to the body and the causes behind depression. I think if they look for and find a physiological problem at the root it is ok to solve it that way. But that doesnt seem to be the methodology of a psychiatrist when they prescribe anti-depressants. They are basing their diagnosis on symptoms and guessing that these pills might help. That is what I dont agree with. 

[Suzie]

4 hours ago, a mustard seed said:

I cant say that definitively can I? I agree with what hes said about it because I think in certain situations it can be a spiritual affliction and it is case by case. For me and jojo medication and even secular therapy did not work but for eowyn it does. It could be some physiological condition that they are unaware of is being solved just the way there was nothing physically wrong with me to warrant medication.

The points I like that he made are about the flippancy with which psychiatrists prescribe medication despite how little they know about what these medications do to the body and the causes behind depression. I think if they look for and find a physiological problem at the root it is ok to solve it that way. But that doesnt seem to be the methodology of a psychiatrist when they prescribe anti-depressants. They are basing their diagnosis on symptoms and guessing that these pills might help. That is what I dont agree with. 

I have no problem understanding that JoJo's experience as well as yours was different than Eowyn and others. Let's acknowledge that difference. I also completely understand the position about psychiatrists,  as a matter of fact in my personal opinion medication should be used wisely on a case by case basis if needed. Having said that, stating that depression is a "disease" of the spirit and not the body is irresponsible and dangerous. Speaking on behalf of Church leaders by stating that they counsel the Saints to use doctors because they don't have enough faith is borderline cultish and should be denounced. Anyone is entitled to their opinion, but should be stated as such keeping in mind the people we might be affecting.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Suzie

[a mustard seed]

Agreed on the points we agree on. I think it goes both ways honestly and people should be encouraged to look at all possible avenues for what works for them personally. It would have been harmful to me to continue taking medication I do not need or worse to try something that had worse sideeffects for me. I have a problem with how much trust we put in psychiatrists and the authority of which they diagnose. 

I think it is self evident that each user name here speaks with their own opinion and that nobody here should be used as a substitute for personal research and professional opinions. I'm not sure how else that could be made clear since nobody else makes distinctions about their opinions while posting and talk with just as much straight faced "fact stating". Its automatically assumed that everyone is stating their own opinion and the anonymous nature of the forum puts us all on an even playing field as far as credibility goes. 

[Suzie]

4 hours ago, a mustard seed said:

I think it is self evident that each user name here speaks with their own opinion and that nobody here should be used as a substitute for personal research and professional opinions. I'm not sure how else that could be made clear since nobody else makes distinctions about their opinions while posting and talk with just as much straight faced "fact stating". Its automatically assumed that everyone is stating their own opinion and the anonymous nature of the forum puts us all on an even playing field as far as credibility goes. 

Saying that "depression is a disease of the spirit and not the body" is clearly a statement of fact. But no matter how factual it might sound to the poster, it is and always will be an opinion. I believe we should be responsible and aware that people suffering with depression might be reading this and those words could affect them greatly.  Time to stop thinking about ourselves for a minute and be mindful of others.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Suzie said:

 Time to stop thinking about ourselves for a minute and be mindful of others.

That's my concern. I know I've mentioned it before but I'm worried about lurkers who will think "Well, LDS don't believe in things like modern medicine. So they must be whacky." Not the impression we want to give 

[a mustard seed]

1 hour ago, Suzie said:

Saying that "depression is a disease of the spirit and not the body" is clearly a statement of fact. But no matter how factual it might sound to the poster, it is and always will be an opinion. I believe we should be responsible and aware that people suffering with depression might be reading this and those words could affect them greatly.  Time to stop thinking about ourselves for a minute and be mindful of others.

Thats a busy body attitude I dont condone. Its not alright to tell certain people that they cant offer their own point of view(and yes declarative statements about what they believe to be true) just because you personally dont agree. What about all the pepple in here asserting that doctors are safe and should be trusted with my mental health? How hatmful would that be to put myself in a situation like i was before where psychiatrists misdiagnosed me and got me addicted to meds that did not help me? I think we should police what you say and make sure that you affirmatively acknowledge for any unsuspectibg lurkers that they should do their own research and that your opinion that medication helps people isnt 100% truth and dact to be followed. Someone could follow your advice when faith or service or a hobby/job might help them better and instead get put on medicine that makes them suicidal. 

Ridiculous. Youre not helping people by making sure every morsel of information they are spoonfed(even in a casual setting such as an online forum) is 100% true. You cant be there for them all the time and personally I trust people to have their agency especially in a casual discussion not to take YOU seriously and think they should trust every doctor who offers them meds. 

What is the alternative? Everybody needs to start every sentence with "my opinion is/in my opinion"? You want him to admit your point of view could be right. That seems selfish in my opinion. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

That's my concern. I know I've mentioned it before but I'm worried about lurkers who will think "Well, LDS don't believe in things like modern medicine. So they must be whacky." Not the impression we want to give 

You read my mind.

[Vort]

19 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Depression is a disease of the spirit, not the body.

Why do you think it has to be either/or, Jojo? Spiritual sickness can manifest itself in our physical bodies, so why not our minds? On the other hand, we can have physical illness that has no spiritual component to it, so why should the same not hold true with some mental and psychological infirmities? Our flesh-and-blood brains are the framework through which we perceive and think about our lives, and I am sure that flesh and blood is just as prone to weakness and disease as our arms, legs, stomachs, or any other part of our bodies.

[Suzie]

5 hours ago, a mustard seed said:

 

Quote

Thats a busy body attitude I dont condone. Its not alright to tell certain people that they cant offer their own point of view(and yes declarative statements about what they believe to be true) just because you personally dont agree.

It seems like you did not read properly. I repeat, I have no issue if you want to share your opinion. It would be silly to assume otherwise, after all this is a discussion forum but you know this already. What  I said is that I believe we should be responsible and aware that people suffering with depression might be reading this and those words (purely opinion) could affect them greatly so if we are about to post something like that it should be clear that we have no medical background/experience and is based on our personal experience with the condition because this is what boils down to. Now, if you believe your depression was/is a spiritual disease you are free to do so, but I have an issue if you try to project that thinking and make it sound like depression is a spiritual disease for everybody else. No, no, no. Talk for yourself, that's all I am saying. Someone might be reading this and believe they do not need medical care and perhaps they do need it.  I am not going to repeat what I said in several posts, please feel free to go back and re-read. Being responsible posters in such a sensitive issue is very important when mental health is concerned.

Quote

What about all the pepple in here asserting that doctors are safe and should be trusted with my mental health? How hatmful would that be to put myself in a situation like i was before where psychiatrists misdiagnosed me and got me addicted to meds that did not help me? I think we should police what you say and make sure that you affirmatively acknowledge for any unsuspectibg lurkers that they should do their own research and that your opinion that medication helps people isnt 100% truth and dact to be followed. Someone could follow your advice when faith or service or a hobby/job might help them better and instead get put on medicine that makes them suicidal.

 I do understand your situation and I am very sorry you had such bad experiences that made you so suspicious and wary of medical professionals. Having said that, your situation is your personal experience and I do not believe we should now warn everyone not to go to a doctor and instead "pray" to get healed. Even the General authorities are saying that people should use medical professionals if needed with regards to mental health! Why are we also disregarding this?

Quote

What is the alternative? Everybody needs to start every sentence with "my opinion is/in my opinion"? You want him to admit your point of view could be right. That seems selfish in my opinion.

You can't tell me what I want unless you read minds so let's not be ridiculous. If I am bold enough to state that depression is a disease of the spirit, you bet you need to make a disclaimer saying it's your personal opinion (just like I did when I shared my views on medications) because it is scary and worrisome to think investigators are reading that statement and thinking this is what "Mormons believe".

Now, if you do not understand what I am saying after reading this post, I do not know what else to tell you. It seems like a few posters do understand it.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Suzie

[Suzie]

5 hours ago, a mustard seed said:

 

Quote

Thats a busy body attitude I dont condone. Its not alright to tell certain people that they cant offer their own point of view(and yes declarative statements about what they believe to be true) just because you personally dont agree.

It seems like you did not read properly. I repeat, I have no issue if you want to share your opinion. It would be silly to assume otherwise, after all this is a discussion forum but you know this already. What  I said is that I believe we should be responsible and aware that people suffering with depression might be reading this and those words (purely opinion) could affect them greatly so if we are about to post something like that it should be clear that we have no medical background/experience and is based on our personal experience with the condition because this is what boils down to. Now, if you believe your depression was/is a spiritual disease you are free to do so, but I have an issue if you try to project that thinking and make it sound like depression is a spiritual disease for everybody else. No, no, no. Talk for yourself, that's all I am saying. Someone might be reading this and believe they do not need medical care and perhaps they do need it.  I am not going to repeat what I said in several posts, please feel free to go back and re-read. Being responsible posters in such a sensitive issue is very important when mental health is concerned.

Quote

What about all the pepple in here asserting that doctors are safe and should be trusted with my mental health? How hatmful would that be to put myself in a situation like i was before where psychiatrists misdiagnosed me and got me addicted to meds that did not help me? I think we should police what you say and make sure that you affirmatively acknowledge for any unsuspectibg lurkers that they should do their own research and that your opinion that medication helps people isnt 100% truth and dact to be followed. Someone could follow your advice when faith or service or a hobby/job might help them better and instead get put on medicine that makes them suicidal.

 I do understand your situation and I am very sorry you had such bad experiences that made you so suspicious and wary of medical professionals. Having said that, your situation is your personal experience l and I do not believe we should now warn everyone not to go to a doctor and instead "pray" to get healed. Even the General authorities are saying that people should use medical professionals if needed with regards to mental health! Why are we also disregarding this?

Quote

What is the alternative? Everybody needs to start every sentence with "my opinion is/in my opinion"? You want him to admit your point of view could be right. That seems selfish in my opinion.

You can't tell me what I want unless you read minds so let's not be ridiculous. If I am bold enough to state that depression is a disease of the spirit, you bet you need to make a disclaimer saying it's your personal opinion (just like I did when I shared my views on medications) because it is scary and worrisome to think investigators are reading that statement and thinking this is what "Mormons believe".

Now, if you do not understand what I am saying after reading this post, I do not know what else to tell you. It seems like a few posters do understand it.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Suzie

[mormon.pw]

On 2/25/2017 at 1:35 AM, Jojo Bags said:

There are a lot of myths out there about depression alright; not only in the LDS community, but the world.  The myth is that doctors and drugs are the answer.  What ever happened to faith and the priesthood?  I guess those are irrelevant subjects now.  We have scientific sounding names for everything now that make any affliction more acceptable to our faithless, secular, wisdom-of-the-world-based society.  Elder Orson Pratt had a bit to say on this subject.

This statement is so applicable today.  We are a faithless society and miracles today are as uncommon as in the days of Christ.

We do not believe in faith or the power of the priesthood.  No, we believe in doctors and drugs.

That's so spot on in my opinion and I think it is important to talk more about that within the church. I have experienced that the leader of our church (that my family goes to) has no idea nor respect to how deceiving devils works are and I really struggle to get some help to get it clarified so I created a website to the story, seek help and later discuss the topic of mental health see here: www.mormon.pw 

If the leaders of the church don't understand what they are dealing with (over 20% of us suffers), they can't lead properly, can they? and they can cause more harm than good

Edited February 26, 2017 by mormon.pw

[NeuroTypical]

On 2/24/2017 at 7:41 PM, Jojo Bags said:

It was not until I stopped relying on the arm of the flesh,  e.g., doctors, and began exercising faith in the healing power of Christ and his Atonement that I finally beat my depression.  I still have occasional bouts of anxiety, but I get rid of that by getting on my knees and, once again, exercising faith in Christ.  Without fail, the anxiety leaves.

Jojo, I'm glad you found a way to beat your stuff.  I believe you. I believe secular methods and the best science had to offer didn't do a thing for you.  I believe you when you say you beat your stuff through a massive shift away from the arm of flesh, and to faith in Christ.  

But you've got to understand, you are one anecdote in a sea of anecdotes.  When we gather enough anecdotes together and do some science on them, we get a picture.  And the picture says some things different than the vast broad-brush conclusions you're drawing based on your own personal experiences. 

Read Eowyn's anecdote.  Consider for a moment, you and her, trying to grapple with similar demons.  Both of you are LDS.  She was, for a time, doing everything she could to exercise every ounce of faith she had to get better.  You were, for a time, doing everything you could to get better through medicine and doctors and counseling.  Both of you decided to leave one camp and walk to the other.  I kind of imagine you crossing paths somewhere in the middle, though you didn't see each other.  Both of you gained peace and help by leaving one camp and joining another.  Even though both of you travelled in the opposite directions.

Now, I don't want to speak for Eowyn, I'm sure she can tell you about the importance her faith and her God still have in her life.  Maybe you might think about that.

[prisonchaplain]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 7:23 AM, Jojo Bags said:

I have nothing against psychologists who have their therapy based in Christ.  I have turned to psychologists in the past and have been helped.  It's the psychiatrists that I have a serious problem with.  They have nothing to do with therapy; they are drug pushers.

There are psychiatrists who consider their work a calling from God. For every psychotropic drug that gets prescribed too quickly, there are likely dozens who should have gotten/taken them and did not. I've seen people transform when they get on their medication. One fellow told me he was thinking about discontinuing his medications because he wanted to believe God for healing. I asked him if the drugs helped him to think more clearly. He affirmed that they did. I said that for today those drugs are God's gift to him. Why would he turn away God's gift? When God chooses to heal him the doctors will confirm what the LORD has done.

Later I found out that if this fellow had gone off his medications for even a few days he would have become dangerous to others and himself. I truly believe the Holy Spirit guided me in the counsel I gave him.

Edited February 27, 2017 by prisonchaplain

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

13 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Later I found out that if this fellow had gone off his medications for even a few days he would have become dangerous to others and himself. I truly believe the Holy Spirit guided me in the counsel I gave him.

I agree!  I love your whole post.  Thanks!

[prisonchaplain]

This question may be a thread derail, so let me know, and I'll start a new string if it is too far off.  What is the LDS understanding of divine healing? I know you believe in it, and that those with priesthood authority may pray healing prayers. However, what is the understanding of how Heavenly Father decides to act? Is it the faith of the priesthood holders? The recipient? A combination?

From this string, I've captured that most here are not afraid to use the good wisdom God gives secular and other-religion experts. Are there some who see relying on medicine and secular counsel as a lack of faith? My movement (Pentecostal) went through a phase in the early years where many would refuse medical help. Some in the "Word of Faith" movement still seem to suggest such an approach. I had not thought LDS took that approach. Do some?

Edited February 27, 2017 by prisonchaplain

[Jane_Doe]

 

19 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

 However, what is the understanding of how Heavenly Father decides to act? Is it the faith of the priesthood holders? The recipient? A combination?

Combination of all those, plus God's will (which in the biggest factor).  

19 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

From this string, I've captured that most here are not afraid to use the good wisdom God gives secular and other-religion experts. Are there some who see relying on medicine and secular counsel as a lack of faith? My movement (Pentecostal) went through a phase in the early years where many would refuse medical help. Some in the "Word of Faith" movement still seem to suggest such an approach. I had not thought LDS took that approach. Do some?

A VERY few, and more with mental/behavioral stuff.  Vast majority view consulting medical professionals as part of being good stewards of our body (this is of course done with prayer and faith).  This view is also supported over the General Conference pulpit and in current Ensigns (like the March 2017 issue has an article on it).  

[prisonchaplain]

5 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Combination of all those, plus God's will (which in the biggest factor).  

I suppose the flip side of our free will (or agency) is that Heavenly Father remains sovereign. 

[Rhoades]

48 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

This question may be a thread derail, so let me know, and I'll start a new string if it is too far off.  What is the LDS understanding of divine healing? I know you believe in it, and that those with priesthood authority may pray healing prayers. However, what is the understanding of how Heavenly Father decides to act? Is it the faith of the priesthood holders? The recipient? A combination?

From this string, I've captured that most here are not afraid to use the good wisdom God gives secular and other-religion experts. Are there some who see relying on medicine and secular counsel as a lack of faith? My movement (Pentecostal) went through a phase in the early years where many would refuse medical help. Some in the "Word of Faith" movement still seem to suggest such an approach. I had not thought LDS took that approach. Do some?

It would be best to read the whole thing, but I'll paste some quotes from a talk by Elder Oaks that address this  (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/04/healing-the-sick?lang=eng).

 

Latter-day Saints believe in applying the best available scientific knowledge and techniques. We use nutrition, exercise, and other practices to preserve health, and we enlist the help of healing practitioners, such as physicians and surgeons, to restore health.

The use of medical science is not at odds with our prayers of faith and our reliance on priesthood blessings. When a person requested a priesthood blessing, Brigham Young would ask, “Have you used any remedies?” To those who said no because “we wish the Elders to lay hands upon us, and we have faith that we shall be healed,” President Young replied: “That is very inconsistent according to my faith. If we are sick, and ask the Lord to heal us, and to do all for us that is necessary to be done, according to my understanding of the Gospel of salvation, I might as well ask the Lord to cause my wheat and corn to grow, without my plowing the ground and casting in the seed. It appears consistent to me to apply every remedy that comes within the range of my knowledge, and [then] to ask my Father in Heaven … to sanctify that application to the healing of my body.”

 

In a notable talk on administering to the sick, President Spencer W. Kimball said: “The need of faith is often underestimated. The ill one and the family often seem to depend wholly on the power of the priesthood and the gift of healing that they hope the administering brethren may have, whereas the greater responsibility is with him who is blessed. … The major element is the faith of the individual when that person is conscious and accountable. ‘Thy faith hath made thee whole’ [Matthew 9:22] was repeated so often by the Master that it almost became a chorus.”

 

Young men and older men, please take special note of what I will say now. As we exercise the undoubted power of the priesthood of God and as we treasure His promise that He will hear and answer the prayer of faith, we must always remember that faith and the healing power of the priesthood cannot produce a result contrary to the will of Him whose priesthood it is. This principle is taught in the revelation directing that the elders of the Church shall lay their hands upon the sick. The Lord’s promise is that “he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed” (D&C 42:48; emphasis added). Similarly, in another modern revelation the Lord declares that when one “asketh according to the will of God … it is done even as he asketh” (D&C 46:30).

From all of this we learn that even the servants of the Lord, exercising His divine power in a circumstance where there is sufficient faith to be healed, cannot give a priesthood blessing that will cause a person to be healed if that healing is not the will of the Lord.

As children of God, knowing of His great love and His ultimate knowledge of what is best for our eternal welfare, we trust in Him. The first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and faith means trust. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Rhoades
included more from the first quote about using medicine

[Guest]

23 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

This question may be a thread derail, so let me know, and I'll start a new string if it is too far off.  What is the LDS understanding of divine healing? I know you believe in it, and that those with priesthood authority may pray healing prayers. However, what is the understanding of how Heavenly Father decides to act? Is it the faith of the priesthood holders? The recipient? A combination?

From this string, I've captured that most here are not afraid to use the good wisdom God gives secular and other-religion experts. Are there some who see relying on medicine and secular counsel as a lack of faith? My movement (Pentecostal) went through a phase in the early years where many would refuse medical help. Some in the "Word of Faith" movement still seem to suggest such an approach. I had not thought LDS took that approach. Do some?

I look at it the same as I do learning.  We are told that we can learn "ALL things" through the Spirit.  But we also encourage education through books and earthly/secular institutions of learning.  I even had a debate with an atheist about this very point.  Since the BoM says.

Quote

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Moroni 10:5

Then why can't you learn through the Holy Ghost 100 digits of PI?  My response to him was that we can.  But you know what?  We also have a scripture that tells us

Quote

...seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.

D&C 88:118

So, if I have a book that has such mundane information, why would I bother praying about it?  Then the most interesting thing happened a week later.  Someone recited many digits of PI (youtube video) for PI day (March 14th).  But as I was listening, it just occurred to me that something was not right.  I pulled out my book and listened to her video.  She missed several digits.

That made me realize that all my academic ability comes from the Lord, not just in a one-time blessing at birth.  I learn because, as I read books of learning, I receive enlightenment and confirmation through the Holy Ghost that such and so is true and correct.  Many times when books are unclear, I'm able to make a guess as to which way to interpret the book is correct.

In medicine, I try to use milder methods (diet and exercise, first aid, etc.) whenever I can.  As things get a little more serious, I have to consider whether the best path would be priesthood or doctor.  The choice changes depending on the situation.

[prisonchaplain]

@Carborendum Excellent post! I wonder if what the Holy Ghost most often does is confirm the truth of all things. In other words, he will attest the wisdom we have diligently gained. Once in awhile, we are allowed the grace of inspired wisdom that comes directly from the Heavenly Father. Those are rare occasions, and we often read about them as miracles.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Carborendum Excellent post! I wonder if what the Holy Ghost most often does is confirm the truth of all things. In other words, he will attest the wisdom we have diligently gained. Once in awhile, we are allowed the grace of inspired wisdom that comes directly from the Heavenly Father. Those are rare occasions, and we often read about them as miracles.

Solomon comes to mind. 

No, I'm not comparing myself with Solomon. Completely different kind of wisdom.