I owe $15,000 in tithing, Can I pay it elsewhere?


danny1042
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Hey there, I owe about $15,000 in tithing from this last year. Its in my bank account right now set aside...My question is I would like to pay my 10% to a different entity other than the church. I would rather give it to an organization where i can SEE with my own eyes the impact I'm having or even participate myself! For example, there are villages in the jungles where the people have no clean running water and for about $1,200 you can get a pump and well there to supply the entire village. Or what about schools or hospital clinics or entrepreneurial programs where they can be a farmer or something to help people get self-sufficient? I want to actually HELP. The church as billions of dollars and I don't think another 10-15K is gonna make any difference and frankly, I don't really care about building more church buildings with no decor and with classrooms that look like jail cells.  ( that's a whole other conversation) The church has plenty of money for that while there are people genuinely with nothing in the jungles and remote locations in different countries. ( I want to see how MY MONEY is directly affecting someone) 

Before you even think about judging me, (if you do YOU are the one that needs to repent) If I gave my 10% over there, I don't believe for ONE MINUTE that Jesus is gonna be mad at me for doing that. I don't believe for one min that I'll "miss my blessings" I'm still giving my 10% and its for helping the poor and needy and afflicted which is CHRISTIANITY AT ITS FINEST in case any of you forget that while doing "the Mormon commandment checklist schedule" (also, that's a whole other conversation) My heart is in the right place and I genuinely want to help people and see how my money is making a difference out there instead of being a tithing check writing sheep thinking nothing of my offering which is how Ive been in the past and probably how a lot of others feel) Just being honest...

Any thoughts? ( 

If any of you have a legitimate organization where I can do something like this please comment below. 

Edited by danny1042
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1 hour ago, danny1042 said:

Hey there, I owe about $15,000 in tithing from this last year. Its in my bank account right now set aside...My question is I would like to pay my 10% to a different entity other than the church. I would rather give it to an organization where i can SEE with my own eyes the impact I'm having or even participate myself! For example, there are villages in the jungles where the people have no clean running water and for about $1,200 you can get a pump and well there to supply the entire village. Or what about schools or hospital clinics or entrepreneurial programs where they can be a farmer or something to help people get self-sufficient? I want to actually HELP. The church as billions of dollars and I don't think another 10-15K is gonna make any difference and frankly, I don't really care about building more church buildings with no decor and with classrooms that look like jail cells.  ( that's a whole other conversation) The church has plenty of money for that while there are people genuinely with nothing in the jungles and remote locations in different countries. ( I want to see how MY MONEY is directly affecting someone) 

Before you even think about judging me, (if you do YOU are the one that needs to repent) If I gave my 10% over there, I don't believe for ONE MINUTE that Jesus is gonna be mad at me for doing that. I don't believe for one min that I'll "miss my blessings" I'm still giving my 10% and its for helping the poor and needy and afflicted which is CHRISTIANITY AT ITS FINEST in case any of you forget that while doing "the Mormon commandment checklist schedule" (also, that's a whole other conversation) My heart is in the right place and I genuinely want to help people and see how my money is making a difference out there instead of being a tithing check writing sheep thinking nothing of my offering which is how Ive been in the past and probably how a lot of others feel) Just being honest...

Any thoughts? ( 

If any of you have a legitimate organization where I can do something like this please comment below. 

So . . . you mistrust the Church because it's a presumably wasteful, multi-billion dollar entity; but also despise its attempt to stretch its financial resources by constructing uniform, relatively spartan meetinghouses. You don't want to be judged by having others question your choices; but you reserve the right to judge the Church leadership by carping about the way they manage the resources voluntarily entrusted to them, and dismiss those who trust the leadership as--and I quote--"tithing check writing sheep".

I think the most pressing issue here isn't the arcane question of where your money winds up.  It's about building Zion.  And this "heads-I-win, tails-you-lose" approach you take to the mainstream Church membership and leadership, is ultimately more destructive to Zion than the fact that the Church's approach to charitable giving may in some ways be more Keynesian than Marxist.  

Do what you want with your money.  As you say, a financially powerful church doesn't *need* it; anymore than a universally powerful God *needs* it for well water or schools or clinics or micro-loans.  

But the way to Zion, both spiritually and temporally, lies with your local priesthood leadership.  That ever has been and ever will be so.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 hour ago, danny1042 said:

 

Before you even think about judging me, (if you do YOU are the one that needs to repent)

You know, when people say "don't judge me" it almost always means "I know I'm doing something wrong." 

 

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I think it depends.  Are you LDS? The answer differs depending on your answer.  This means I'll give multiple answers below.

If you are LDS you do not pay tithing because of "blessings."  This is a fallacy that many think is an automatic simply from paying tithing.  I've personally known those who paid tithing that have gone hungry, cold, and some that even lost their shelter and housing.  I don't think I'd tell these people that they were being "blessed" for paying their tithing at that moment.  It is NOT paid to help the poor, but to help the priests (or church) as per the Old Testament.  The Tithe is to be used for the building up of the church, it is offerings which are to be used for the poor typically.

This is a commandment in the LDS church.  What is not asked is how much of your income it is...or how you count it up.  Some individuals say it has to be 1/10 of your gross.  That's an INSANE thought for some individuals in some nations where they already take 60% for taxes, meaning that you'd be actually paying 25% of your livable income.  Others feel it is on net income, and others on whatever they consider a surplus.  The question is only whether you consider yourself a full tithe payer.  If that means you pay 15,000 in tithing, I suppose that's what it means.  If it means something else, than that's what it means.

There are also offerings, which are paid above and over tithes.  Supposedly these are used on the poor, however, I have no verification that all offerings are utilized in that way as I do not oversee all the offerings of the LDS church.  Today, it states that all monies donated to the church are to be utilized as the church desires (in essence at least), but I feel at least a portion, if not all those offerings are utilized in helping the needy.  Unfortunately offerings normally only come in the form of fast offerings and those tend to be somewhat meager on Fast Sunday in comparison to the needs of many wards.

NOW...

If you are not LDS, it can be something entirely different.  The term tithe means ten percent, but that commandment is ONLY really found in the Old Testament.  Furthermore, it is to support the Levitical priests of the time.  Do we still have the sacrifices of old, or the Levitical priests today?  I haven't seen any in Christian churches doing blood sacrifices recently.  have you?  So, the question is whether or not tithing is actually still a requirement, as it is obviously NOT understood in the same way it was in the Old Testament.  This understanding varies between church to chuch (or religion to religion). 

Paying something (and it does talk about tithes, but not as explicitly or as in detail as the Old testament) is discussed a little in the New Testament (Matthew 23:23 and 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 for example).  However, it also specifies that it doesn't necessarily need to be 10% as per 2 Corinthians 9:7

Quote

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart,

so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver

I'd like to say, you give your tithe to your church of choice, as you would.  If your church has specific rules on it, you may read up on those first, however, in general, it is up to you...even in the LDS church.

AS I pointed out above, some feel that since the ideas of the Old Testament really aren't available today (again, know any Levite Priests in Christian denominations), that how one tithes is utilized in different ways.  Many also feel it should be given to charitable organizations rather than a church. 

Here is a link to someone else who I found via google who had a similar question (though not necessarily LDS, but Christian in general)

https://www.redletterchristians.org/tithe-go-local-church/

If you decide to donate to a charity, be aware that whether you are LDS or a member of another congregation, they probably will not count your donation to that charity as tithing, and instead (if they are more liberal in that area, the LDS church probably would not) may consider it an offering if anything.  Some organizations which are good for donation from what I know of, and which will use most of the donation to the charity are as follows.

Red Cross (as far as I know, beyond the necessary payments for infrastructure and salaries, it all goes for charity.  Even those in the infrastructure are working to get blood and get it around.  95% goes to charity with only 5% to overhead administrative costs).

Boy Scouts (a portion of this will go to the Council Executive and the District Executives as salary.  The Council Executive at times is overpaid in my opinion, but the District Executives are normally just eeking by and are paid less then the national average salary or wage in general.  A part is also taken by national.)

Catholic Charities (you will need to specify which section this goes to.  This can be a hospital or other area).

Doctors without Borders (uses around 85-90% on charity)

For more questions on charity overhead and what goes where, you can reference this site

http://www.charitynavigator.org/

 

If you live in a large city, another place that can almost ALWAYS use donations is a soup kitchen or a place which gives food to the poor.

 

Edited by JohnsonJones
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The solution to this seems simple to me:

1) Pay your tithing (it's not tithing unless it's paid to the church) and pay another amount to the charity of your choice.

...or...

2) Don't pay your tithing, and accept the consequences of doing so (preferably without lots of teeth gnashing about not getting to choose the consequences - but you do get to choose whether to gnash).

I recommend making your decision after serious scripture study and humble prayer.

I find this statement of yours a bit odd:

1 hour ago, danny1042 said:

I would rather give it to an organization where i can SEE with my own eyes the impact I'm having or even participate myself!

I see the impact of tithing with my own eyes.  I get to participate myself through church attendance, magnifying my calling, and striving to live a Christ-like life (which includes being anxiously engaged in many good things, in and out of the official church structure, of my own free will).  IMO, if you cannot see, you are not looking, or are looking from the wrong perspective.  If you don't feel like you are participating, well, go talk to someone in your ward leadership - I'm sure they can help you to find more ways to participate.

1 hour ago, danny1042 said:

For example, there are villages in the jungles where the people have no clean running water and for about $1,200 you can get a pump and well there to supply the entire village. Or what about schools or hospital clinics or entrepreneurial programs where they can be a farmer or something to help people get self-sufficient?

This is what the church's Humanitarian Aid Fund does, BTW - you can donate to that too - it's right on the tithing slip.

1 hour ago, danny1042 said:

The church as billions of dollars and I don't think another 10-15K is gonna make any difference

A difference to the church? Of course not.  A difference to the Lord?  Not in terms of how well his work will be accomplished.  The riches of the earth are His (including the ones currently in your stewardship and mine), and nothing will stand in His way should He decide to make use of them.  A difference to you in terms of how open the windows of heaven are for you personally?  Yes, big difference.

1 hour ago, danny1042 said:

I want to see how MY MONEY is directly affecting someone

Careful, they'll call you to be bishop - then you'll see.  (PS: See above - it's not "MY MONEY" - it's the Lord's, 100% of it, and He has placed it in your stewardship.)

1 hour ago, danny1042 said:

My heart is in the right place and I genuinely want to help people and see how my money is making a difference

I genuinely want to help people.  I don't need to see it.  I choose to trust the Lord.  That's not because I'm a sheep; I don't need to "see it in action" in order to know I've done the right thing - the right thing being to obey the command to pay tithes (note there's no footnote on that commandment saying, "unless you can find a more effective use of the money").  Most people in my ward don't see where their fast offerings go.  (I do.)  I'll never likely see where my donations to various other funds go.  So what?  Why is it that you need to see a (short term) temporal impact of a donation in order to feel good about it?  (I'm asking seriously, but as a question for you to consider yourself, not one for you to answer here, as I think the answer to that question is of great importance and worth pondering.)

1 hour ago, danny1042 said:

tithing check writing sheep

sheep-clipart-and-illustration-sheep-cli  (Actually, I use the online donation system - no more checks for me.  Baa.)

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8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

 9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

 10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?

Whenever I see someone ask people such questions, I always quote Nephi. Laman and Lemuel inquired of Nephi because it was sooooo much easier than asking God. And even though Nephi's answers were correct, his brothers put their trust in his answers rather than ask God about their father's visions unlike Nephi, who went straight to God and inquired of Him rather than just take his dad's word for it. But that takes, you know, effort. Moroni called it real intent. 

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3 hours ago, danny1042 said:

Hey there, I owe about $15,000 in tithing from this last year. Its in my bank account right now set aside...My question is I would like to pay my 10% to a different entity other than the church. I would rather give it to an organization where i can SEE with my own eyes the impact I'm having or even participate myself! For example, there are villages in the jungles where the people have no clean running water and for about $1,200 you can get a pump and well there to supply the entire village. Or what about schools or hospital clinics or entrepreneurial programs where they can be a farmer or something to help people get self-sufficient? I want to actually HELP. The church as billions of dollars and I don't think another 10-15K is gonna make any difference and frankly, I don't really care about building more church buildings with no decor and with classrooms that look like jail cells.  ( that's a whole other conversation) The church has plenty of money for that while there are people genuinely with nothing in the jungles and remote locations in different countries. ( I want to see how MY MONEY is directly affecting someone) 

Before you even think about judging me, (if you do YOU are the one that needs to repent) If I gave my 10% over there, I don't believe for ONE MINUTE that Jesus is gonna be mad at me for doing that. I don't believe for one min that I'll "miss my blessings" I'm still giving my 10% and its for helping the poor and needy and afflicted which is CHRISTIANITY AT ITS FINEST in case any of you forget that while doing "the Mormon commandment checklist schedule" (also, that's a whole other conversation) My heart is in the right place and I genuinely want to help people and see how my money is making a difference out there instead of being a tithing check writing sheep thinking nothing of my offering which is how Ive been in the past and probably how a lot of others feel) Just being honest...

Any thoughts? ( 

If any of you have a legitimate organization where I can do something like this please comment below. 

Hi Danny - i don't give money to the Mormon church any more either.  When my mind is right, i try not to judge either side.  i mean i could (and too often do), but really, someone else could accurately accuse me of similar wastefulness of God's Gifts to me - my wastefulness just looks a bit different.

And i do think the Church does a lot of good.  i have had some good friends get help from the Church - so i am glad for the tithing money that helped them.

Anyways, my recommendation is that you avoid giving it to an organization.  Giving it yourself to people whose problems you understand and whose pain you see and help prevent from continuing is really rewarding.  And, giving it in little chunks helps to combat materialism.

i believe you have the opportunity to touch people that the church - or any other organization for that matter - just wouldn't - because your sphere of influence is different.

And i just can't believe that Jesus would do anything but smile when we give part of ourselves along with our money.  And that in no way is meant to put down people who donate tithing - because surely there is a lot faith and very personal sacrifice involved for people who are paying it.

Thanks for your goodness in wanting to help so many people.  Not many people could part with that amount of money (myself included) - so is very impressive.

 

 

Edited by lostinwater
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I personally pay my tithing, and then do other good things with other money.  I've given to the church's Humanitarian Aid fund for years.  Also their Perpetual Education fund.  One helps break the cycle of multigenerational poverty in poorer countries, the other helps people after a disaster.  

If you ain't sold on tithing, you might want to consider those two.

You want to see where the money goes and how it helps people?  Here - click the links. 

https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services/funds/humanitarian-general-fund.html

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865663385/Perpetual-Education-Funds-success-led-to-massive-expansion-of-LDS-effort-to-lift-the-poor.html

Edited by NeuroTypical
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As if other charity organizations are so pristine and clean that they'll handle the money wisely?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/03/10/wounded-warrior-project-reportedly-fires-top-executives-amid-spending-controversy.html

Lol . . .play it again sam, play it again.

One of those logical fallacies, the Church is a money-grubbing organization, I'd much rather pay to an organization that actually helps people.  Good luck!

Where there is money there is the high likelihood for corruption.  If you think the Church is corrupt with the money, then by the same reasoning any organization you give it to will be corrupt with it.

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Heh.  They made me financial clerk, so I do tithing now.  I just finished a four hour financial audit.  The stake auditor is a cop, with years of criminal auditing experience.  It was a fun audit.  He discovered we wrote a check that reimbursed a member $7.82 for cheese, when they only spent $6.82.  We were dinged for that. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Heh.  They made me financial clerk, so I do tithing now.  I just finished a four hour financial audit.  The stake auditor is a cop, with years of criminal auditing experience.  It was a fun audit.  He discovered we wrote a check that reimbursed a member $7.82 for cheese, when they only spent $6.82.  We were dinged for that. 

I shudder at the thought of getting that calling

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4 hours ago, danny1042 said:

. I would rather give it to an organization where i can SEE with my own eyes the impact I'm having or even participate myself!

What's to keep you from seeing Church funds help people?  What's to keep you from participating yourself?  

Is it the fact that it goes into a collective big pipe and then a bunch of little pipes bother you?  Would you rather just buy something (relatively) small yourself and go "look I did this!".  If it's the big pool that bothered you, does it likewise bother you to see >$60,000 of your income tax alone go into a trillion dollar extremely corrupt and messy pot known as the US government?  

4 hours ago, danny1042 said:

 frankly, I don't really care about building more church buildings with no decor and with classrooms that look like jail cells.

So you're complaining about how the church is too fat and doesn't spend money helping people, and then complain that is does not splurge unnecessary funds on... decorations?  

4 hours ago, danny1042 said:

( I want to see how MY MONEY is directly affecting someone) 

Tithing money =/= your money.

4 hours ago, danny1042 said:

I don't believe for ONE MINUTE that Jesus is gonna be mad at me for doing that.

Malachi 3:8 shows Him doing just that...

4 hours ago, danny1042 said:

My heart is in the right place and I genuinely want to help people and see how my money is making a difference out there instead of being a tithing check writing sheep thinking nothing of my offering which is how Ive been in the past and probably how a lot of others feel) 

How many times in this sentence did you mentions the poor any needy?  How many times did you reference YOU or "YOUR" stuff?  What is the real focus of your post here?  Not judging, just asking questions.

Edited by Jane_Doe
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If the principle of the commandment is important to you, and you still feel as though you want to contribute to other organizations that help beyond what the church does, you could also budget your income to allow you to pay a portion to other organizations on top of the 10% The Lord requires of us. 

I'd say before thinking about putting your allotted 10% of your income for tithing elsewhere, to take some time to counsel with yourself about your testimony of tithing and what it means to you and what it means coming from The Lord. Then make your decision after that. 

 

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4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

You know, when people say "don't judge me" it almost always means "I know I'm doing something wrong." 

 

"With all due respect" usually involves none.

"Can I be honest with you officer" (You mean you weren't before? Gosh! Who knew?)

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12 hours ago, danny1042 said:

Any thoughts?

Sure, a thought on your non-judgmental-judgemental post...
You are only here in an attempt to antagonize people and really could care less what we think. 

Edited by NeedleinA
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I pay a full tithe not only because it's a commandment but also because I like having electricity, heat/ac, water to drink, etc when I go to church or the temple (this is what I "see with my own eyes" but maybe you don't).
I pay fast offerings to help the local poor as well as help with other things that come around (angel tree, school clothes, food bank, etc).
Then I pay into the various other options the church provides because I do want to help the needy around the world but don't trust other organizations to do it better than the church can and does.  As far as seeing it with my own eyes, my in-laws sent pictures from their mission where they helped villages get water wells (the church provided the supplies, the villagers the labor or something like that - but a partnership none-the-less so people are invested in what they get).  This is just one example but you get the idea.

And btw - I don't consider myself a 'sheep' - I feel great about what I'm doing but to each his own.

 

Edited by my two cents
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1 hour ago, my two cents said:

I pay a full tithe not only because it's a commandment but also because I like having electricity, heat/ac, water to drink, etc when I go to church or the temple (this is what I "see with my own eyes" but maybe you don't).
I pay fast offerings to help the local poor as well as help with other things that come around (angel tree, school clothes, food bank, etc).
Then I pay into the various other options the church provides because I do want to help the needy around the world but don't trust other organizations to do it better than the church can and does.  As far as seeing it with my own eyes, my in-laws sent pictures from their mission where they helped villages get water wells (the church provided the supplies, the villagers the labor or something like that - but a partnership none-the-less so people are invested in what they get).  This is just one example but you get the idea.

And btw - I don't consider myself a 'sheep' - I feel great about what I'm doing but to each his own.

 

Thank you.  I loved "your two cents."

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14 hours ago, danny1042 said:

The church as billions of dollars and I don't think another 10-15K is gonna make any difference.

No individual snowflake ever took responsibility for an avalanche. But yet they were still all a part of it.

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4 minutes ago, Fether said:

No individual snowflake ever took responsibility for an avalanche. But yet they were still all a part of it.

Oh I like this. :)

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