Is a vasectomy or getting your tubes tied an abomination to God and His plan?

[anatess2]

17 hours ago, person0 said:

Obviously you didn't read what I wrote accurately:

At what point did I say it was anything more than their opinion?  At what point did I indicate that it is official doctrine that it is an abomination?

BTW since 1972 was too long ago for you, here is a more recent one that is accessible on lds.org from General Conference:

 

Yes, those were statements from prophets - not to be taken lightly or dismissed as simple commentary.  But, to conclude that birth control is an abomination based on those statements is taking those statements out of the context they were given.

The fact of the matter is, the official position of the Church is this:  The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.

[person0]

32 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, those were statements from prophets - not to be taken lightly or dismissed as simple commentary.  But, to conclude that birth control is an abomination based on those statements is taking those statements out of the context they were given.

The fact of the matter is, the official position of the Church is this:  The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.

That is really not any different than what I said in the first place.  I'm sorry that you felt otherwise.

[anatess2]

33 minutes ago, person0 said:

That is really not any different than what I said in the first place.  I'm sorry that you felt otherwise.

It's the word "abomination" that took as aback.

[person0]

9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It's the word "abomination" that took as aback.

I can see that, but I do believe it was within the appropriate context.

Quote

Abomination
. . .The word is also used to denote any heathen or immoral practice. . .
(https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/abomination?lang=eng)

Quote

"I have no hesitancy in saying that I believe that is one of the greatest crimes of the world today, this evil practice."
-President Joseph F. Smith - June, 1917

Quote

". . .the very foundation of the Christian home. Sexual laxity among young people, birth control, and intemperance are its insidious and vicious enemies."
- David O. McKay (Gospel Ideals, p. 487)

I never intended to say that it is an actual abomination. I simply intended to say that it was the opinion of some of the apostles and prophets that it is an abomination.  That is not to say it is the official opinion of the church.  I believe when read accurately my original statement is not offensive nor incorrect given the Church's own definition of the word.  That being said, I do concede that someone may not get that impression if they merely glanced at it once and did not fully read into the statement.  But now they will have all of these clarifying posts they can read from all of us! 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, person0 said:

I can see that, but I do believe it was within the appropriate context.

I never intended to say that it is an actual abomination. I simply intended to say that it was the opinion of some of the apostles and prophets that it is an abomination.  That is not to say it is the official opinion of the church.  I believe when read accurately my original statement is not offensive nor incorrect given the Church's own definition of the word.  That being said, I do concede that someone may not get that impression if they merely glanced at it once and did not fully read into the statement.  But now they will have all of these clarifying posts they can read from all of us! 

In applying "abomination" to all your quotes, you seem to be conflating contraceptives and sterilization with abortion.  I don't think anyone else does.  Where is there a quote stating contraceptives (specifically not abortion) are an abomination?  Where does it state that sterilization was an abomination?

<<

Notice the pattern here:  Anatess objected to your use of "abomination" applied to birth control.  Then you responded with the quote on abortion being an abomination.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Guest

[person0]

22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Notice the pattern here:  Anatess objected to your use of "abomination" applied to birth control.  Then you responded with the quote on abortion being an abomination.

I have posted a great many quotes up to this point.  I disagree with the interpretation that all of them were solely in reference to abortion.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, person0 said:

I have posted a great many quotes up to this point.  I disagree with the interpretation that all of them were solely in reference to abortion.

I didn't say that.   I specifically said otherwise.  I'll try again.

1) You offered quotes on abortion being an abomination.

2) You lumped them in with other quotes on contraception and sterilization or other means of not having  children.  None of these quotes used the word "abomination" in regard to anything other than abortion.

3) Anatess then stated her disagreement with your use of "abomination" to describe the individual decision on reducing the number of children.

4) Your response was to justify the usage by providing the quote (yet again) on abortion which describes it as abomination.

[person0]

31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

4) Your response was to justify the usage by providing the quote (yet again) on abortion which describes it as abomination.

I apologize for misunderstanding. Please indicate which quote you believe is in reference to abortion so I can better determine this possible blunder of mine.

[omegaseamaster75]

Quote

“[W]e declare it is a grievous sin before God to adopt restrictive measures in disobedience to God's divine command from the beginning of time to ‘multiply and replenish the earth.' Surely those who project such measures to prevent life or to destroy life before or after birth will reap the whirlwind of God's retribution, for God will not be mocked.”

- Prophet Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1972, p. 63

Well there is this one

[person0]

40 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Well there is this one

Quote

". . . measures to prevent life. . ."

I interpret that part of the statement to also include contraception, however, I can see how some would not consider contraception to be preventing life. So I can reasonably agree with your assertion on that.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

". . . the quote (yet again) on abortion. . ."

I do not think I repeated that quote more than once and instead used different quotes once clarification was requested.  However, I may have missed something. 

Edited March 30, 2017 by person0
Did not want to give the impression of intentionally being pompous. I was joking.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

I interpret that part of the statement to also include contraception, however, I can see how some would not consider contraception to be preventing life. So I can reasonably agree with your assertion on that.

I do not think I repeated that quote more than once and instead used different quotes once clarification was requested.  However, I may have missed something. 

My apologies.  I'll explain:  You posted

I mistook the Joseph F Smith quote to be a different quote; a portmonteau (if you can call it that) of two other quotes on abortion.

Quote

Many laws permit or even promote abortion, but to us this is a great evil. 

Quote

Abortion is one evil practice that has become socially accepted...

But you are correct, it was referring to birth control.  So, my bad on that point.

However, I'll point out two things:

1) The sentiment from Pres Smith was of a particular motivation and attitude about having children, and using birth control to enable the same.  Birth control today among many of the saints is not based on such.  There are many MANY more reasons people today decide to use birth control.  You can't lump them all into one group.  To do so is painting with a broad brush.

2) And indeed, none of the quotes you provided actually used the word "abomination".  YOU used that word.  YOU chose that word.  Yes, you can speak however you like.  But you are well educated enough to know the connotation of such a word.  You are saying it is a heathen and immoral practice.

But you're perfectly ok with that, aren't you?  Well, I guess we know where you're coming from.

[person0]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But you're perfectly ok with that, aren't you?  Well, I guess we know where you're coming from.

Perhaps some more personal background can greatly help clarify.  My wife and I are physically unable to have our own children.  When we as a couple first approached the decision of whether or not to use birth control, we were not aware of this fact.  Every time we prayed to determine if it was acceptable for us to use or continue to use birth control early in our marriage, I always received a spiritual impression of 'It doesn't matter'.  After about 1 year into our marriage we decided to forgo using birth control and were excited about the prospect of having children.  After 7 months of trying and failing we started a year long medical investigative process which resulted in the knowledge that even after expensive medical procedures we would only have a 5% chance at best of bringing our own biological children into the world.  We decided to forgo the procedures.  The doctor placed my wife on birth control medication long term as it provides specific hormones needed to help her remain healthy.  In addition to that we discovered that had my wife's parents allowed her to be placed on birth control medication in her teens our % chance of bearing our own children could have been much higher.

With that knowledge I hope you can now see that I am definitely conscientious about your point #1, my own wife needs 'birth-control' medication for her well being and without it her life expectancy could literally be shortened.

About point #2 I did choose the word abomination on my own, however, I am not personally saying it is a heathen and immoral practice.  I chose that word simply because I felt it was strong enough to be inclusive of the united perspectives of some of the early brethren rather than picking one single quote and using that terminology.  I still do not believe it was inaccurate to use that word for that context.

In conclusion:

I do not personally have any problem with any individual or couple deciding to use birth-control medication, that is between them and the Lord.  I would never tell someone that by choosing to do so they were committing an abomination, such would not even cross my mind.  I do not personally believe that the use of birth control is a heathen or immoral practice even outside of my particular circumstance. I 100% agree with the church's current stance as quoted by @anatess2 that The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.

The intent of my original comment was to illustrate that there have been opinions from both perspectives offered by authorities of the Church.  I still believe that when accurately read it does convey that message, however, I have already but once again apologize that my intent has somehow been unclear and mistaken.  I hope that it is now sufficiently clear where I am coming from on this issue.