New Mormon Channel Video on LDS Family and Homosexuality


BeccaKirstyn
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Very interesting and different video. I hope this kind of story can bring hope or comfort to families in similar situations. At the end of the day, we have to show the kind of love the Savior would show, even when we don't know the answers to all the questions.

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A child still has their agency to choose how they want to live their life. As a parent, what do you do? If your child (and let's say this child is 18+) has come to you to tell you they are gay, not because they want you to try to help them because they don't feel it is something that can be changed, but because they want you to be aware of what they are going through, what do you do? I think the church hasn't put out a strong narrative towards how to address these situations because they are individually-based. Each scenario is different in my opinion, and maybe one "path" to addressing this isn't the right path for every family. The child in the video seems clearly set in the way he wants to live his life, since he has left the church. As parents, what do you do? I think they are parents who love the sinner, but do not love the sin. If their son wants to choose to leave the church because of his sexuality, what are they to do other than to love him anyway? 

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The problem is three fold (perhaps more). 1: The implication that there is only one way to "love", and that is acceptance. Anything else doesn't count as love. 2: The implication of acceptance as of primary import in these matters. 3. The way "acceptance" is even implicitly being defined.

I think it is problematic, at best, to be conveying a message that acceptance takes precedence over all, that acceptance is only defined by the receiver, and that just some kumbayatic (<--awesome word I just made up) let's-all-get-along-as-we-bury-our-heads-in-the-sand sort of sentiment (defined as "acceptance") is the "true" way to show Christlike love.

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5 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

A child still has their agency to choose how they want to live their life. As a parent, what do you do? If your child (and let's say this child is 18+) has come to you to tell you they are gay, not because they want you to try to help them because they don't feel it is something that can be changed, but because they want you to be aware of what they are going through, what do you do? I think the church hasn't put out a strong narrative towards how to address these situations because they are individually-based. Each scenario is different in my opinion, and maybe one "path" to addressing this isn't the right path for every family. The child in the video seems clearly set in the way he wants to live his life, since he has left the church. As parents, what do you do? I think they are parents who love the sinner, but do not love the sin. If their son wants to choose to leave the church because of his sexuality, what are they to do other than to love him anyway? 

I've known of some parents who never talk to their children after they tell them they are gay. That's harsh. I think it's sick. This is still your kid. I'm not a parent but I was staggered when I heard that. 

I remember when a kid shot up a school in Oregon. The father said "I still love him, he's still my son." But then there are parents who refuse to talk to a gay kid? I can't imagine it. 

 

Edited by MormonGator
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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I've known of some parents who never talk to their children after they tell them they are gay. That's harsh. I think it's sick.

I remember when a kid shot up a school in Oregon. The father said "I still love him, he's still my son." But then there are parents who refuse to talk to a gay kid? I can't imagine it. 

 

I doubt you'll find anyone who's going to actively suggest that refusing to talk to their gay child is the proper course of action. Although I'm sure it happens sometimes, it's pretty hard to make a convincing argument that doing so is the proper thing.

The problem isn't so black and white -- yet it seems to be viewed that way often. Side one = shunning entirely. Side two = complete acceptance in the name of love. And yet there's really a whole host of other ways to deal with this, many of which do not involve giving into lies.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I doubt you'll find anyone who's going to actively suggest that refusing to talk to their gay child is the proper course of action. Although I'm sure it happens sometimes, it's pretty hard to make a convincing argument that doing so is the proper thing.

The problem isn't so black and white -- yet it seems to be viewed that way often. Side one = shunning entirely. Side two = complete acceptance in the name of love. And yet there's really a whole host of other ways to deal with this, many of which do not involve giving into lies.

I agree, I don't think anyone here would advocate that and I'm sure even less would say it's a good thing to do. 

I agree, the problem isn't so black and white. There is a happy medium between shunning entirely and complete acceptance. 

I agree, you don't have to lie to your kid, and a kid doesn't have to lie to their parent. In my swinging single days, my dad had a rule: He won't ask about my personal life, and I don't tell him about my personal life. Worked like a charm. 

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Becca, I loved the video, thanks for sharing!  My favorite part was when the mom said that she just put the situation at the Savior's feet.  Wonderful!

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4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I've known of some parents who never talk to their children after they tell them they are gay. That's harsh. I think it's sick. This is still your kid. I'm not a parent but I was staggered when I heard that. 
 

I don't doubt that this happens sometimes; but such stories usually come from the kids--not the parents--and I dare say that in most cases the parents would have a drastically different perception as to why their relationship with their child broke down.

It is very easy for both rightists and leftists to take the natural consequences of their own obnoxious, combative, drama-queen narcissism; and try to recast and even glorify it as ideological persecution.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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17 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This article pretty well sums up my sense on this:

http://standardoflibertyblog.blogspot.com/2017/03/a-tale-of-two-families.html

This. Personally, I think we have as a society gone way too far in the direction of "compassion".  We seem to think that Jesus was all about compassion, compassion, compassion. And that is true to an extent, but yet we don't seem to remember that Jesus at many points was extremely harsh.  He cursed the fig tree, threw out the money changers, he said unto Peter, one of his loyalist followers  "Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men".

If we don't think that at certain times Jesus was very harsh, then we have not read the scriptures. In fact, the scriptures are re-pleat with instances of Prophets of God calling people to repentance and telling them they are in danger of hell-fire if they do not repent.

I don't know exactly what I would do if one of my children decided to do this; I hope I never have to be faced with it. I do know that I would not accept their lifestyle, they would absolutely know I do not accept it and that it is not of God, and I would not accept their bf/gf in my house-I will not accept such gross sin into my house. What else I would do, I don't know.  But if they would think that me not accepting their sin in my house is me cutting them off-well I guess I failed to teach them properly as they are being raised.

This modern idea that we need to just "accept people as they are" and "you've got to be true to yourself" is absolute modern psychological doogy. Nothing could be further from the truth.  The whole point of this life is to become what God wants us to become and that requires change, changing the very being of who we are-I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago and in 10 years I won't be the same person I am today (hopefully, I'll be better).

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There is blog post on LDS.org written by the mother in the video:

https://www.lds.org/blog/navigating-family-differences-with-love-and-trust?cid=HP_TU_14-3-2017_dOCS_fBLOG_xLIDyL2-3

Some church members have a misunderstanding about the message of the video and this blog post.  There is nothing in either one condoning homosexual behavior.  I see a message of promoting empathy and love. My favorite part is the video is where the father tells of asking his gay son, "Why would you choose this?" with the son responding with a chuckle.  This moment changed the father's perspective and helped him learn to empathize.

In the church we hold up a high standard in regards to sexuality and marriage.  We can uphold that standard while still having compassion on those with whom we disagree.  Its a fine line that we need to walk.  I've noticed the General Authorities have been trying to get this point across for a while.  I believe it was Elder Oaks who said we can "disagree without being disagreeable."

 

 

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5 hours ago, Phineas said:

There is blog post on LDS.org written by the mother in the video:

https://www.lds.org/blog/navigating-family-differences-with-love-and-trust?cid=HP_TU_14-3-2017_dOCS_fBLOG_xLIDyL2-3

Some church members have a misunderstanding about the message of the video and this blog post.  There is nothing in either one condoning homosexual behavior.  I see a message of promoting empathy and love. My favorite part is the video is where the father tells of asking his gay son, "Why would you choose this?" with the son responding with a chuckle.  This moment changed the father's perspective and helped him learn to empathize.

In the church we hold up a high standard in regards to sexuality and marriage.  We can uphold that standard while still having compassion on those with whom we disagree.  Its a fine line that we need to walk.  I've noticed the General Authorities have been trying to get this point across for a while.  I believe it was Elder Oaks who said we can "disagree without being disagreeable."

One of the few times that I actually really disagree with the majority of the message the Church is putting out here and in some ways I think this is the Church speaking out of both sides of it's mouth.

Actually, the message of the article is one of acceptance of homosexual behavior.  No where in the article does it mention sin, repentance, obedience. In fact a major bullet point of the article is Love without Condemning. The article states "  love everyone, even those among your family and friends who may make choices different than you would.  "

??? What a completely backwards article.  We aren't talking about just simply different choices here.  Different choices are: I choose to live in the city rather in the country, I listen to heavy metal vs. classical music, I choose to be an artist vs. a lawyer.  No, the choices discussed here are not just choices, these are decisions to sin. And such major sin will lead away from Christ if they are not repented of. Out of 7 kids, one chooses to lead a homosexual livestyle against the counsel, guidance of prophets and scriptures and one has a kid out of wedlock. 

People today quite frankly don't know what love is.  They equate love with acceptance-which is exactly what this article advocates.  Just accept those who choose to live differently than you do-it's really no big deal.  

"My favorite part is the video is where the father tells of asking his gay son, "Why would you choose this?" with the son responding with a chuckle.  This moment changed the father's perspective and helped him learn to empathize."

That part is just so sick . . .the son thinks he is so much wiser than the dad and just chuckles at his dad's "ignorance".  Yes the father is absolutely right, the son is choosing this lifestyle, he is choosing to be in a homosexual relationship, which is against God's commandments.

Quite frankly, what kind of absolute drivel is this? I get it, people don't necessarily choose their emotions . .. however the point of this life is to learn how to control our emotions and feelings, not to be ruled by them. I have absolute sympathy for someone who suffers with SSA, but I have none for someone who chooses to engage in homosexual behavior (and that doesn't just include sex)-it is 100% absolutely sin. 

I quite frankly, hope the Church really understands the messages they are putting out by shoving this crap front and center.  #1 It doesn't need to be made a big issue of so putting it on the front page of lds.org is unnecessary. #2 The Church is trying to walk a very fine line that will ultimately fail one way or the other.  

The Church has unequivocally made the stand that homosexual relationships are unacceptable with the decision on children being baptized. Yet at the same time, the Church media arm has very recently (last 6 months) been pushing a "loving", just accept everyone in the lifestyle they choose message.  Those two messages are not compatible over the long-term. Either the 1st must be modified where it is acceptable, or the 2nd must be modified where the message is that we love even when we condemn the actions and sin.

This message of loving without condemning is sick.  We have been taught by prophets in the past, by scriptures what is righteous behavior and non-righteous behavior.  We can absolutely condemn the sin of homosexual behavior.  Shoot, just look at what the word condemn means: express complete disapproval of, typically in public; censure.

The statement that we should love without condemning is an absolute lie. Now this doesn't mean, we need to be jerks about it and go up to this guy who brings his bf to church and start telling him off. But it does mean we shouldn't shy away from unequivocally teaching in Sunday School lessons, Sacrament talks, etc. that this is gross sin.

We can absolutely and should absolutely condemn homosexual behavior, just like we condemn pre-marital sex, and a whole host of other gross sins. 

But that isn't the message of this article.  The message is to just "love".  And the implication of this is that people will start to shy away from teaching true doctrine in church.

I wouldn't have as much problem if the article actually expressed that these actions are sin, disobedience to God's laws, etc. but again no where in the article does it mention it.  It's all about this fluffy modern thing called "love" which in modern parlance simply means acceptance of whatever behavior.

One of the few times in my life, that I'm none too pleased about a message the Church puts out . . .and I'm sure b/c so many people just love this video it will be in the Ensign.

Sometimes, I wonder if God allows things, not b/c He approves of it but b/c of the hardness of the people's heart and unwillingness to listen to Him.  Moses received the higher law from God, but when he saw how the Israelite behaved he broke the higher law and God gave a lesser law.  I sometimes wonder if many things that have been revealed will be taken away because of our unwillingness to cleave unto God's Word.

And a homosexual relationship is different than a girl living with their bf-in that relationship there is a hope and a path for the girl and boy to fully repent and still be together.  The only path for repentance in a homosexual relationship is for them to break-up and to never be in that type of a relationship again. And with a boy/girl it is not obvious that they are living in sin; with boy/boy it's very obvious.

I go to Church to get away from the world a place of refugee, not a place were I have to again reinforce to my children-while Bill and John sit together and hold hands together in Church, it's unacceptable behavior. Certainly all are accepted and welcome, but it is incumbent on those who attend to understand the social norms of the location.

It's more a complaint against current lack of understanding of social grace in today's society. The first thing I do when I go someplace is to understand what the social norms are for that location, do people dress-up, is it casual, etc. I don't show up to Church drunk and hung over, I don't show up wearing flip-flops.  But in today's "you just have to love me as I am" society, the understanding of the need for conforming to the social norms in a group setting has completely flown out the window. This doesn't just happen in a Church setting, but it is a broader condemnation of society where the only norm now is that there are no norms.

Edited by yjacket
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I follow my mom's example.  For my devout Catholic mom, my non-Catholic marriage is against God's design of marriage.  There's no question that she loves me.  There's no question that she loves my husband.  And there's no question she thinks my marriage is against God's design.  So, yes, you'll find my husband and my children in the family parties but you won't find my wedding pictures with the rest of the wedding pictures on the wall or in the family album.  And if you ask her what she thinks about my being Mormon, she has no problem telling everybody I'm going to hell so she's praying everyday for my salvation.

I love my mother very much.

Edited by anatess2
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52 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I follow my mom's example.  For my devout Catholic mom, my non-Catholic marriage is against God's design of marriage.  There's no question that she loves me.  There's no question that she loves my husband.  And there's no question she thinks my marriage is against God's design.  So, yes, you'll find my husband and my children in the family parties but you won't find my wedding pictures with the rest of the wedding pictures on the wall or in the family album.  And if you ask her what she thinks about my being Mormon, she has no problem telling everybody I'm going to hell so she's praying everyday for my salvation.

I love my mother very much.

I'm completely fine with your mom's example.  But heaven help the LDS family that did this to a homosexual couple-the LGBT whatever would be up in arms.  How dare you! You don't love them! How so un-Christlike! I know more people who are Christlike-you're no Christian! blah,blah, blah.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; LGBT don't want to just live and let live (my philosophy), they want acceptance.  They want to live in their sin and convince everyone else along with themselves that what they are doing is not sin.  Big, big difference.

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28 minutes ago, yjacket said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again; LGBT don't want to just live and let live (my philosophy), they want acceptance.  They want to live in their sin and convince everyone else along with themselves that what they are doing is not sin.  Big, big difference.

Had a long discussion about this on a road trip with a friend.  The gist of it was that sin is between the sinner and God, (and to a lesser extent, any harmed by it) attempting to justify that sin to oneself or to God is no worse, but justifying it to others is where it moves sharply toward apostasy; if you can justify it for yourself, are you not also offering them the opportunity to justify it for themselves, and thus essentially encouraging them to sin as well?

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I, too, was grated by the kid in the video; whose attitude seemed to be "I don't have to understand youyou have to understand me."  It also seemed kind of short on advice for specific troublesome scenarios (what happens when gay son wants his boyfriend/husband to stay overnight with him in the family home?)

On the other hand, the video needs to be contextualized as one part of the larger Mormons and Gays website; rather than a standalone statement.  The overall website makes it quite clear that chastity/repentance is the sine qua non for self-described gays to progress in the Gospel.  

The other thing the video does, is, it keeps us talking to each other.  Previously it seems like the most common scenario was, a kid "comes out", there's a short period of conflict and angst and trying to change, and finally the kid leaves the LDS Church and never looks back (and the Church, for its part, at least culturally considered the kid a lost cause for the rest of mortality). What I see with this video is a the promotion of a different paradigm where the Church continues to reach out and minister and keep the lines of communication open, hoping for a day of repentance where the kid may yet come back to church and embrace a chaste lifestyle.

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I follow my mom's example.  For my devout Catholic mom, my non-Catholic marriage is against God's design of marriage.  There's no question that she loves me.  There's no question that she loves my husband.  And there's no question she thinks my marriage is against God's design.  So, yes, you'll find my husband and my children in the family parties but you won't find my wedding pictures with the rest of the wedding pictures on the wall or in the family album.  And if you ask her what she thinks about my being Mormon, she has no problem telling everybody I'm going to hell so she's praying everyday for my salvation.

I love my mother very much.

Perfect!

I have not had to face homosexual behavior in my immediate family, though I have close relations who have committed adultery or who "shack up."  Other family members and I have dealt with these immoral behaviors in much the same way as your mother.

We haven't needed videos and articles telling us to be "loving" in those cases. I wonder why?

I suspect that political correctness plays a part. In principle, it is like the Muslim issue (another PC protected class): whenever there is Muslim terrorist attack or threat, the PC police and SJWs focus almost exclusively on warning not to judge all Muslims by the actions of a few (as if that is a big or THE major problem), and pay little or no mind to the deaths and harm and dangers.

Thanks, -Wade Englund- 

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26 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I, too, was grated by the kid in the video; whose attitude seemed to be "I don't have to understand youyou have to understand me."  It also seemed kind of short on advice for specific troublesome scenarios (what happens when gay son wants his boyfriend/husband to stay overnight with him in the family home?)

On the other hand, the video needs to be contextualized as one part of the larger Mormons and Gays website; rather than a standalone statement.  The overall website makes it quite clear that chastity/repentance is the sine qua non for self-described gays to progress in the Gospel.  

The other thing the video does, is, it keeps us talking to each other.  Previously it seems like the most common scenario was, a kid "comes out", there's a short period of conflict and angst and trying to change, and finally the kid leaves the LDS Church and never looks back (and the Church, for its part, at least culturally considered the kid a lost cause for the rest of mortality). What I see with this video is a the promotion of a different paradigm where the Church continues to reach out and minister and keep the lines of communication open, hoping for a day of repentance where the kid may yet come back to church and embrace a chaste lifestyle.

Indeed... one should not divorce this individual video from the larger context of the Church's long standing council.  The simple fact of the matter it is very hard for us humans to follow God's example of hating the sin but loving the sinner.   We usually end up hating the sin and the sinner... or loving the sin and the sinner... and delude ourselves in thinking we are being Christ-like.  And the balance is usually so fine that even if we do manage to find it someone else will  proclaim loudly that we did not.

 

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28 minutes ago, wenglund said:

We haven't needed videos and articles telling us to be "loving" in those cases. I wonder why?

I suspect that political correctness plays a part.

Yeap ...b/c there is a societal push and agenda to accept homosexuality behavior as normal and healthy. First it started off on the fringes (i.e. 20 years ago this wasn't even a problem) then the left adopted it and it has become part of the liberal ideology.  Since the Church is neither left nor right, plenty of members are apart of the Church who have a liberal ideology.  That then pushes on the Church and that push is affecting the Church.

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

On the other hand, the video needs to be contextualized as one part of the larger Mormons and Gays website; rather than a standalone statement.  

It needs to be. But it won't be. Not in our Facebook meme culture.

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The overall website makes it quite clear that chastity/repentance is the sine qua non for self-described gays to progress in the Gospel.  

But it's also, imo, short on the idea of real, honest, absolute, change.

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What I see with this video is a the promotion of a different paradigm where the Church continues to reach out and minister and keep the lines of communication open, hoping for a day of repentance where the kid may yet come back to church and embrace a chaste lifestyle.

In theory, however, embracing half-truths as if they are truths will not achieve this end. What it does, instead, is sustain the lie that is the foundation of the apostasy in the first place.

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30 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed... one should not divorce this individual video from the larger context of the Church's long standing council.  The simple fact of the matter it is very hard for us humans to follow God's example of hating the sin but loving the sinner.   We usually end up hating the sin and the sinner... or loving the sin and the sinner... and delude ourselves in thinking we are being Christ-like.  And the balance is usually so fine that even if we do manage to find it someone else will  proclaim loudly that we did not.

 

I don't see the problem as being that we aren't hating the sin or loving the sinner enough (It is "a" problem that definitely exists, but not "the" problem of this video). But, rather, a narrative that is changing what it means to "love the sinner" to something that isn't really about love at all. It's about getting along. Getting along and loving are not the same thing. The problem is that we love the sinner but we don't get along with them, and we are being taught (primarily by society, but sometimes enforced by videos like this) that if we don't get along, we must not love. That is false. It is a problem.

Not disagreeing with you, just in case it wasn't clear. Just expounding on the thoughts.

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58 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I, too, was grated by the kid in the video; whose attitude seemed to be "I don't have to understand youyou have to understand me."  It also seemed kind of short on advice for specific troublesome scenarios (what happens when gay son wants his boyfriend/husband to stay overnight with him in the family home?)

On the other hand, the video needs to be contextualized as one part of the larger Mormons and Gays website; rather than a standalone statement.  The overall website makes it quite clear that chastity/repentance is the sine qua non for self-described gays to progress in the Gospel.  

The other thing the video does, is, it keeps us talking to each other.  Previously it seems like the most common scenario was, a kid "comes out", there's a short period of conflict and angst and trying to change, and finally the kid leaves the LDS Church and never looks back (and the Church, for its part, at least culturally considered the kid a lost cause for the rest of mortality). What I see with this video is a the promotion of a different paradigm where the Church continues to reach out and minister and keep the lines of communication open, hoping for a day of repentance where the kid may yet come back to church and embrace a chaste lifestyle.

I agree, but the inevitable question then becomes (bolded part), what does being homosexual and chaste mean and look like in practice?  Is it just simply no sex? What about two guys holding hands? There is nothing unchaste about a boy and a girl holding hands.  But for two homosexuals?  I personally believe that homosexual relationships (not just the act are sin), therefore having two homosexuals walk into Church, sit in the pew and be cuddling is sin-in fact IMO it is flaunting sin. The same act that would be chaste for unmarried heterosexuals is not chaste for homosexuals.

And for the homosexual, we are talking about 1-2% of the population, a very small percentage.  IMO, someone who is an active member of the Church but who is leading a homosexual lifestyle should either be excommunicated or disfellowshipped. To do otherwise, is making a mockery of God's commandments.  One would disfellowship or excommunicate a bf/gf living together, it really is that simple.

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40 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 And the balance is usually so fine that even if we do manage to find it someone else will  proclaim loudly that we did not.

I completely agree, I just wish that there was at least one word in the article, just one sentence that acknowledged without caveats that this behavior is sin and disobedience and will eventually lead down a path away from God.  But it wasn't there. Instead it was all about acceptance for "who they are".

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