I don't want to think about it - a new Prophet


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Coming from the Catholic tradition of choosing a pope and all the pageantry that goes along with the new pope's installation, I wondered - God forbid that President Monson, dies, but if he does, what happens with the next President?  I know the person will be the next senior person, but is there a public ceremony? Is it private? Does anyone get to wear a red cape and big hat?

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There is really no pomp an circumstance around it.  Assuming he doesn't pass away first, the next President of the Church will be Russel M. Nelson.  There will be a ceremony known as a Solemn Assembly where the First Presidency will be reorganized and we will sustain the leadership of the Church.  There is nothing inherently special about a prophet of God except for the fact that he is a very righteous individual who has lived in such a way, and holds a character such that the Lord is able to use him; to call him to labor in that role. He is a man, just like any other, and both you and I are individually capable of being equally righteous and attaining the same knowledge, blessings, and personal revelations.  Members should never view the prophet in the same way as as the woman with the issue of blood saw Jesus:

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"For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole." (Mark 5:28)

A prophet is a holy man of God, nevertheless:

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". . .a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such."  (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:265)

All that being said feel free to wear a cape and red hat if you want as long as you post some pictures :P

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The answers so far have talked about what the membership-at-large sees.  Behind the scenes (and there have been conference addresses explaining this, though I can't think of a cite to one off-hand): on the prophet's death the remaining counselors of the first presidency resume their places in the Q12 (technically, now the Q14), which now assumes the role of the church's highest governing body.  This status quo (Chirch history nerds call it an "apostolic interregnum) may continue for a few days, or (though this hasn't happened recently) for years.

At some point in a Q12 meeting a motion is made to re-constitute the First Presidency.  If it carries, then by tradition the second-senior apostle formally nominates the senior apostle as President of the Church.  Once that motion carries, the President is set apart by the entire Q12; with the second-senior apostle (who is now the presumptive president of the Q12) acting as the voice.  The President of the Church selects his counselors (traditionally, but not necessarily, drawn from the ranks of the Q12), which then (usually) creates a vacancy in the Q12 that is (usually) filled at the next General Conference; where the new First Pesidency and new President of the Q12 are also sustained.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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34 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The answers so far have talked about what the membership-at-large sees.  Behind the scenes (and there have been conference addresses explaining this, though I can't think of a cite to one off-hand):

The following is not as detailed as you wrote, but it speaks to it.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1996/08/the-kingdom-of-god-will-roll-on-succession-in-the-presidency?lang=eng

A noticeable (possible) contradiction is that you said there was a "nomination".  The article (quoting Joseph Fielding Smith) states:

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There is no mystery about the choosing of the successor to the President of the Church... The Lord settled this a long time ago, and the senior apostle automatically becomes the presiding officer of the Church, and he is so sustained by the Council of the Twelve which becomes the presiding body of the Church when there is no First Presidency.

It is most probable that the process by which the Twelve sustain him is by nomination and vote as you described (per parli-pro).  But that procedure is not in the Ensign article.

From the same article:

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The new President is ordained and set apart as the President of the Church by the members of the Quorum of the Twelve. He then selects his counselors and sets them apart in the First Presidency. When the First Presidency is reorganized, it once again assumes its revealed role as the “highest council of the church".

 

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Elder Tanner shared some of the details of the meeting where President Kimball was selected to succeed President Lee (and he shares the doctrine and history behind it).

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“… Four days after President Lee’s death, President Kimball, the president of the Twelve, called the members of the Twelve together in the upper room of the temple for the purpose of discussing the reorganization of the First Presidency and to take whatever action was decided upon. Those who had been counselors to the President—that is, President Romney and myself—took their respective places in the Quorum of the Twelve. 

“President Kimball, upon expressing his great sorrow at the passing of President Lee and his feeling of inadequacy, called upon the members of the Twelve in order of seniority to express themselves individually as to how they felt about reorganizing the presidency of the Church. 

“As each member of the Twelve spoke, he expressed himself as feeling that now was the time to reorganize the First Presidency and that President Spencer W. Kimball was the one whom the Lord wanted to preside at this time. The sweet Spirit of the Lord was present in rich abundance and there was complete unity and harmony in the minds and spoken words of the Brethren. The only purpose and desire was to do the will of the Lord, and there was no question in anyone’s mind but what the will of the Lord had been expressed. 

“Elder Ezra Taft Benson then made the formal motion that the First Presidency of the Church be reorganized and that Spencer W. Kimball be sustained, ordained, and set apart as the president, prophet, seer, revelator, and as trustee-in-trust of the Church. This motion was seconded and unanimously approved. 

“In all humility, President Kimball stepped forward and made his speech of acceptance, praying that the Spirit and blessings of the Lord would attend him that he might be made able to carry out the will of the Lord. … 

“He then chose and nominated as his first counselor N. Eldon Tanner and as his second counselor Marion G. Romney, each of whom expressed himself in all humility and pledged himself to support and sustain President Kimball as the president of the Church and to fill his office to the best of his ability, and prayed for the blessings of the Lord to attend him. 

“Following this, President Benson was sustained as president of the Council of the Twelve. President Kimball then took his seat in the middle of the room, and as all those present placed their hands upon his head, we felt the Spirit of the Lord was truly with us, and this sweet Spirit filled our hearts. Then, with President Benson being mouth, in a beautiful prayer and blessing, Spencer Woolley Kimball was ordained and set apart as prophet, seer, and revelator and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”

 

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This looks like a good opportunity to ask a question that's been on my mind since a Sunday School lesson we had a few weeks ago.

Doctrine and Covenants, Section 107

21  Of necessity there are presidents, or presiding officers growing out of, or appointed of or from among those who are ordained to the several offices in these two priesthoods.
22  Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.
 

These verses seem to refer to how a new prophet is called but I'm not sure how to interpret them. Verse 22 seems to suggest that the members of the First Presidency are "chosen by the body". Who is the body being referred to here? There is nothing here to suggest that the body being referred to is the Quorum of the Twelve and even if it is, as far as I understand, the Quorum of the Twelve do not choose who the new prophet will be. 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

This looks like a good opportunity to ask a question that's been on my mind since a Sunday School lesson we had a few weeks ago.

Doctrine and Covenants, Section 107

21  Of necessity there are presidents, or presiding officers growing out of, or appointed of or from among those who are ordained to the several offices in these two priesthoods.
22  Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.
 

These verses seem to refer to how a new prophet is called but I'm not sure how to interpret them. Verse 22 seems to suggest that the members of the First Presidency are "chosen by the body". Who is the body being referred to here? There is nothing here to suggest that the body being referred to is the Quorum of the Twelve and even if it is, as far as I understand, the Quorum of the Twelve do not choose who the new prophet will be. 

It seems to me that the "body" spoken of here, is the collective quorums of the Melchizedek Priesthood.  I would venture to guess that that's part of the reason we vote by quorum during Solemn Assemblies--the newer practice of also asking the Relief Society to vote separately is all well and good and inclusive; but scripturally it is the priesthood quorums as (theoretically) autonomous bodies, who have a right to sustain the 1st Presidency as leaders of their priesthood specifically in addition to being leaders over the Church at large.

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On 4/5/2017 at 10:23 PM, person0 said:

All that being said feel free to wear a cape and red hat if you want as long as you post some pictures :P

In my doctoral program, we all wore a red robe w/ermine collar, a crown, and had a scepter after we defended our dissertations.  I avoid having pictures taken, otherwise, I'd share. :D  Personally, I found it a natural state for me to be in and am surprised I don't dress that way more often.

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11 hours ago, dahlia said:

In my doctoral program, we all wore a red robe w/ermine collar, a crown, and had a scepter after we defended our dissertations.  I avoid having pictures taken, otherwise, I'd share. :D  Personally, I found it a natural state for me to be in and am surprised I don't dress that way more often.

A sceptre! Seriously!

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The new President is ordained and set apart as the President of the Church by the members of the Quorum of the Twelve. He then selects his counselors and sets them apart in the First Presidency. When the First Presidency is reorganized, it once again assumes its revealed role as the “highest council of the church".

Is this really correct?  I'm thinking that "ordained" is specifically to a priesthood office.  And "apostle" is the Prophet's priesthood office.  "Prophet" or "President of the Church" is a calling (like Stake President -- with a priesthood office of High Priest) rather than a priesthood office in and of itself.

What am I missing here?

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Is this really correct?  I'm thinking that "ordained" is specifically to a priesthood office.  And "apostle" is the Prophet's priesthood office.  "Prophet" or "President of the Church" is a calling (like Stake President -- with a priesthood office of High Priest) rather than a priesthood office in and of itself.

What am I missing here?

I agree with you. The Prophet is the "president of the high priesthood" much like the elders quorum president is, well, president of the elders. He is selected from among them, not given a different priesthood office.

Come to think of it, this article sums aligns pretty closely with my thoughts on the subject.

And a further reading on how the principles at play today with prophetic succession were used to push through the early succession crisis, see here.

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On 4/6/2017 at 6:53 AM, Carborendum said:

The following is not as detailed as you wrote, but it speaks to it.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1996/08/the-kingdom-of-god-will-roll-on-succession-in-the-presidency?lang=eng

A noticeable (possible) contradiction is that you said there was a "nomination".  The article (quoting Joseph Fielding Smith) states:

It is most probable that the process by which the Twelve sustain him is by nomination and vote as you described (per parli-pro).  But that procedure is not in the Ensign article.

From the same article:

 

Re automatic (emphasis on that word) succession by the senior apostle--that has been the practice, but I don't think it's scripturally mandated.  

Here's the thing:  under an apostolic interregnum, the most influential person in the Church is the president of the body that is leading the Church--viz, the President of the Q12.  He does become the de facto leader of the Church, of sorts (insofar as such is possible under apostolic interregnum); and at minimum it would be a breach of protocol and a effective demotion for any other person to be selected by the Q12 as the next President of the Church.  I think the Lord and the Q12 members themselves would abhor the kind of contention, politicking, and "palace intrigue" that would typically underlie such a move.

But, could it happen in the event of--say--the poor health or incapacity of the President of the Q12; if the Pres of the Q12 were to demur at the calling and the quorum harmoniously selected an alternate?  I rather think that, theoretically, it could.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Re automatic (emphasis on that word) succession by the senior apostle--that has been the practice, but I don't think it's scripturally mandated.  

Here's the thing:  under an apostolic interregnum, the most influential person in the Church is the president of the body that is leading the Church--viz, the President of the Q12.  He does become the de facto leader of the Church, of sorts (insofar as such is possible under apostolic interregnum); and at minimum it would be a breach of protocol and a effective demotion for any other person to be selected by the Q12 as the next President of the Church.  I think the Lord and the Q12 members themselves would abhor the kind of contention, politicking, and "palace intrigue" that would typically underlie such a move.

But, could it happen in the event of--say--the poor health or incapacity of the President of the Q12; if the Pres of the Q12 were to demur at the calling and the quorum harmoniously selected an alternate?  I rather think that, theoretically, it could.

So in theory, the new prophet could be anyone from the 12, the but it's usually the president of the quorum? Asking out of my own ignorance.

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3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

So in theory, the new prophet could be anyone from the 12, the but it's usually the president of the quorum? Asking out of my own ignorance.

That is my understanding; and speaking practically (as opposed to theoretically) I think it's a pretty safe bet that the next prophet will be whoever is serving as the president of the quorum.

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Guest MormonGator
13 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

That is my understanding; and speaking practically (as opposed to theoretically) I think it's a pretty safe bet that the next prophet will be whoever is serving as the president of the quorum.

Like most people here I trust that the church does the right thing of course, it's just interesting to see how the process works. 

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On 4/6/2017 at 5:21 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

At some point in a Q12 meeting a motion is made to re-constitute the First Presidency.  If it carries, then by tradition the second-senior apostle formally nominates the senior apostle as President of the Church.  Once that motion carries, the President is set apart by the entire Q12; with the second-senior apostle (who is now the presumptive president of the Q12) acting as the voice.  The President of the Church selects his counselors (traditionally, but not necessarily, drawn from the ranks of the Q12), which then (usually) creates a vacancy in the Q12 that is (usually) filled at the next General Conference; where the new First Pesidency and new President of the Q12 are also sustained.

My own observation is that there is nothing special about how things are done; basically, the Brethren follow Robert's Rules of Order for nomination, seconding, and voting. As far as I know, the Brethren do not follow Robert's for anything else they ever do as a quorum. (Not that I would know, but I just can't think of any other time when they would be likely to follow parliamentary procedure.)

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On 4/6/2017 at 11:49 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

It seems to me that the "body" spoken of here, is the collective quorums of the Melchizedek Priesthood.  I would venture to guess that that's part of the reason we vote by quorum during Solemn Assemblies--the newer practice of also asking the Relief Society to vote separately is all well and good and inclusive; but scripturally it is the priesthood quorums as (theoretically) autonomous bodies, who have a right to sustain the 1st Presidency as leaders of their priesthood specifically in addition to being leaders over the Church at large.

I interpreted this slightly differently. I agree that "the body" must mean the body of the Priesthood, but by implication I suspect it refers to the presiding authority of the body -- that is, in the absence of the First Presidency, the Quorum of Twelve.

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6 hours ago, MormonGator said:

So in theory, the new prophet could be anyone from the 12, the but it's usually the president of the quorum? Asking out of my own ignorance.

Well, in theory, the new prophet need to be a high priest called by revelation. In case you think you're off the hook*, how long do you think it takes to ordain a gator as a high priest?

* I know you think you're "off the hook", but I mean it in the other way.

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10 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Well, in theory, the new prophet need to be a high priest called by revelation. In case you think you're off the hook*, how long do you think it takes to ordain a gator as a high priest?

* I know you think you're "off the hook", but I mean it in the other way.

I vote that we start a campaign for @MormonGator to be ordained as an Apostle.  

WHO DO WE WANT?  GATOR!   

WHEN DO WE WANT HIM? NOW!

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9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I vote that we start a campaign for @MormonGator to be ordained as an Apostle.  

WHO DO WE WANT?  GATOR!   

WHEN DO WE WANT HIM? NOW!

To show my support for this initiative, I plan to wear pants to Church next Sunday. I urge everyone to join me.

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

To show my support for this initiative, I plan to wear pants to Church next Sunday. I urge everyone to join me.

OH MAN!  I still can't stop laughing.  Even as I type this.

Edit: Read it again 2 hours later.  Still laughing.

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