Vort Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 For those who have never read or heard Elder Packer's classic speech, and also for those who have, here it is as an Easter treat. http://emp.byui.edu/huffr/The Unwritten Order of Things -- Boyd K. Packer.htm Anddenex, NeedleinA, Blackmarch and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted April 17, 2017 Report Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) @Vort Thank you so much for posting. This is a remarkable talk. I am inspired by Bro Packer's approach to teaching which is one that I practise myself. I teach to the bottom of the class. I do my best to demystify, to make things clear and plain. I so miss Bro Packer. Edited April 20, 2017 by Sunday21 Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 Love this talk! In my opinion, one of the best talks written. Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 On 4/16/2017 at 2:20 AM, Vort said: For those who have never read or heard Elder Packer's classic speech, and also for those who have, here it is as an Easter treat. http://emp.byui.edu/huffr/The Unwritten Order of Things -- Boyd K. Packer.htm Aren't his examples just "Mormon culture"? It's not the Gospel. Why is it being enshrined as this Great Good Thing? Vort and Anddenex 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connie Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Thank you, Vort. That was really interesting. I had never read this before or even heard of it. Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarginOfError Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Gag. This talk is insanely overrated. I typically see it brought up in the context of "we have to do things the same way we always have because 'the unwritten order of things'" Honestly, if it was really that important, it should have been written down. Maureen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted April 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, MarginOfError said: Gag. This talk is insanely overrated. I typically see it brought up in the context of "we have to do things the same way we always have because 'the unwritten order of things'" Honestly, if it was really that important, it should have been written down. An apostle of Jesus Christ disagrees with you. I think that's worth taking into account. zil, Anddenex, wenglund and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarginOfError Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 I honestly couldn't care less. When I'm in a position where a decision needs to be made, I'll make the decision by study and by faith. If the solution that presents goes along with the unwritten order, great. If it doesnt, great. For that matter, I will (and have) gone against both the unwritten and written order of things when it presents the best solution. It's a pattern that has resulted in enormous blessings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Vort said: An apostle of Jesus Christ disagrees with you. I think that's worth taking into account. I could tell a story, but it's too personal and incomplete as yet. Suffice it to say that the Spirit is telling me that Elder Packer has hit on something worth figuring out - by which I mean, sitting down and pondering why an Apostle thinks these things matter, as opposed to immediately saying, for example, "That's old fashioned / not important / overly formal, and we can function just fine without those hidebound practices." Sunday21, Vort, Anddenex and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MarginOfError said: Gag. This talk is insanely overrated. I typically see it brought up in the context of "we have to do things the same way we always have because 'the unwritten order of things'" Honestly, if it was really that important, it should have been written down. I typically see it brought up by people who think it is primarily brought up in the sorts of contexts you mention. But for my part, I don't remember ever seeing it used in an ecclesiastical context to bludgeon a nonconformist into compliance. I think Elder Packer himself hints, early in the talk, that perfect compliance with written or unwritten Church policy won't always be feasible; and I think the gist of the talk is fatherly advice to the effect that a) by patiently observing, one learns a lot; and b) often there is a reason and a benefit behind the superficially meaningless protocols we observe. I find those assertions not only unobjectionable, but profoundly useful. As for the specifics he offers--I consider them wise advice borne of experience; potentially to be outweighed by inspiration after a careful wrestle before the Lord--but I would anticipate that such a wrestle would tend to yield a testimony of why the general rule exists even if instant circumstances and the Spirit justify a variance. Edited April 19, 2017 by Just_A_Guy Anddenex, zil and Vort 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) Yeah, I'm not sure I follow the "gag" response. Everything in the talk didn't necessarily resound with me perfectly. But "gag"? Edited April 19, 2017 by The Folk Prophet Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MarginOfError said: I honestly couldn't care less. When I'm in a position where a decision needs to be made, I'll make the decision by study and by faith. If the solution that presents goes along with the unwritten order, great. If it doesnt, great. For that matter, I will (and have) gone against both the unwritten and written order of things when it presents the best solution. It's a pattern that has resulted in enormous blessings. I sincerely don't think Elder Packer himself would have had you act differently. Edited April 19, 2017 by Just_A_Guy The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarginOfError Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 34 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: I sincerely don't think Elder Packer himself would have had you act differently. In the also-likely-category, if he did object, this wouldn't ever come up between us because of the myriad other things I do that he _would_ object to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, MarginOfError said: In the also-likely-category, if he did object, this wouldn't ever come up between us because of the myriad other things I do that he _would_ object to. (Begins chanting) List! List! List! (No, not really. ) Edited April 20, 2017 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 Quote Brother Kimball was not used to having a choice. He wanted to have Brother Ballard tell him, but Brother Ballard said, “No, you choose.” So Brother Kimball said, “I have a typewriter. [Very few people had typewriters then.] I know the system. I think I can make a bigger contribution if I stay as the stake clerk.” And so it was. I find it very telling that "Brother" Kimball made the choice, not out of personal preference, but because of where he discerned the need was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 (edited) Quote When (Elder Kimball) was a stake president in Safford, Arizona, there was a vacancy in the office of superintendent of Young Men in the stake, as the office was then called. He left his office one day, went a few steps down the street, and had a conversation with the owner of a business. He said, “Jack, how would you like to be superintendent of the stake Young Men’s organization?” Jack replied: “Aw, Spencer, you don’t mean me.” Spencer replied, “Of course I do. You get along well with the youth.” He tried to convince him, but the man turned him down. Later in the day, after smoldering with his failure and finally remembering what Jacob had said in the Book of Mormon—“having first obtained mine errand from the Lord” (Jacob 1:17)--he returned to Jack. Calling him “brother” and by his last name, he said, “We have a vacancy in a stake office. My counselors and I have discussed it; we’ve prayed about it for some time. Sunday we knelt down together and asked the Lord for inspiration about who should be called to that position. We received the inspiration that you should be called. As a servant of the Lord, I am here to deliver that call.” Jack said, “Well, Spencer, if you are going to put it that way . . .” “Well, I am putting it that way.” You know the result. It helps to follow the proper order of things, even the unwritten order. I had several interesting experiences to confirm that this works. I'd like to share one. I called up the stake clerk in charge of keys to the building. Quote Bro. (Jones) I am the ward mission leader for (A) ward. I need to get a copy of the key to the baptismal font. -You'll need to get it from your bishop. He doesn't have it. That's why... -(cutting me off) Then he needs to call me. But I need to get ready for a baptism this Saturday. -Then talk to your bishop. (click). After I finally vented to my wife and calmed down, the words of this story about Pres Kimball came to me. The version I remember was from a different talk. But the words came to me. I repented and came at it a different way. Quote Bro. Jones, my name is Bro. Carborendum from the Third Ward. Bishop Loveland is bishop here. He has recently called me as ward mission leader. When I went to him to get a key for the baptismal font, he told me that we didn't have one, and that I'd have to call you. So, as ward mission leader of the Third Ward, I am here on an errand from my bishop to ask you for a copy of the key to the baptismal font. -Oh, is that what is going on? Ok... (we proceeded to make an appointment for me to pick up the key). Edited April 24, 2017 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wenglund Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 On 4/19/2017 at 4:02 PM, MarginOfError said: Gag. This talk is insanely overrated. I typically see it brought up in the context of "we have to do things the same way we always have because 'the unwritten order of things'" Honestly, if it was really that important, it should have been written down. I honestly couldn't care less. When I'm in a position where a decision needs to be made, I'll make the decision by study and by faith. If the solution that presents goes along with the unwritten order, great. If it doesnt, great. For that matter, I will (and have) gone against both the unwritten and written order of things when it presents the best solution. It's a pattern that has resulted in enormous blessings. I take it that humility is one of those unwritten rules you find overrated and gag inducing? Thanks, -Wade Englund- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 On 4/19/2017 at 4:18 PM, Just_A_Guy said: I sincerely don't think Elder Packer himself would have had you act differently. I really like this. Sometimes it helps to remind myself that these talks are given for a very wide audience...worldwide, for heavens sake. I ask myself, if I had the opportunity to sit down with him, and discuss this would it help? I've never sat down to an interview with an apostle, but I do talk to Heavenly Father daily and receive answers through the Holy Ghost. THAT communication tells me that my occasional misunderstandings or differences with the Leaders could be resolved one on one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 The thing the church teaches us repeatedly is the importance of following God (no if ands or buts about that) The Church leaders and teachings exist as guidelines and sanity checks to our personal revelation to make sure it is coming from the right source. We should rarely stray... And when we do stray we need to be very sure we know who we are following... and we shouldn't stray that often or long. Take for example Nephi's killing of Laban. The church commandment then and now was "Do Not Kill" Yet Nephi strayed. He knew this he struggled to make sure it was the right thing. It was. He did it. Then he went right back to Not Killing as his default state rather then taking it as an excuse to continually not follow the counsel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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