Am I overreacting?


Guest
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, yjacket said:

Daggummit . . .I'm not implying that LilyFlower is lying.  REREAD WHAT I WROTE!!!!!

I'm implying that LilyFlower's daughter is a 16 year old immature drama queen who probably/maybe took things out of context and provided a bad story to her mother.  IF it went down like the daughter says it did, then it might be an issue.  My guess is that it did not go down like she said it did b/c teens are teens and especially girls are DRAMA QUEENS!!!

More importantly, the point missed here is that the actual behavior of the child (i.e. livestreaming on Facebook in a bathtub is inappropriate) 

THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE AT HAND HERE.  Lily did not ask you how to deal with a child's behavior.  Lily is asking you how to deal with this leadership.  YOU, once again, are assuming that Lily (and all parents for that matter whose children are livestreaming on facebook) are bad parents and want to get on THAT high horse instead of the issue being brought up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh and are we getting snowballed here? Is Lillyflowers the mother or the child-the OP is written like an adult but then the birthdate on the account is in 2000, i.e. the actual 16-17 year old girl?

And if we are getting snowball . . . I caught you. (if not ignore).

Edited by yjacket
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE AT HAND HERE.  Lily did not ask you how to deal with a child's behavior.  Lily is asking you how to deal with this leadership.  YOU, once again, are assuming that Lily (and all parents for that matter whose children are livestreaming on facebook) are bad parents and want to get on THAT high horse instead of the issue being brought up.

And you can't separate the behavior from the incident as they are intertwined.

Yeah, well a lot of parents do suck in today's society. . . just look at their offspring to see it.

No, I'm just simply saying to talk to the leadership before talking to the bishop? What logical reason do you have for not talking to the leadership first?

Edited by yjacket
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, miav said:

 @yjacket Not all girls are Drama Queens, yes some are. But some aren't. You can't lump all girls together. 

No, they aren't but teenagers aren't adults either and with teenagers you never quite know exactly what they will and won't do.  And again I'd first talk to the leadership before going off half-cocked on the Bishop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest LiterateParakeet
6 minutes ago, yjacket said:

I'm implying that LilyFlower's daughter is a 16 year old immature drama queen . . .

My guess is that it did not go down like she said it did b/c teens are teens and especially girls are DRAMA QUEENS!!!

Some teen girls are drama queens, but certainly not all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, yjacket said:

No, it is possible that this was a conversation they had; they might not have thought it was that big of a deal to talk to the parents about.  Anatess you are seeing blood here instead of taking the logical approach which is talk to the leadership first-then if necessary talk to the Bishop.  Why is this so blasted hard?

Because you're backtracking when you're wanting to focus on the daughter instead of the leadership and you are yjacket who can't acknowledge you missed the point, so you wiggle out and make it look like we're the ones who can't get your point.  My mamma always says - you will end up with ulcers if you live your life that stiff all the time.

Sure, talk to the leadership.  But, unless the leadership says the child was lying about going to the park and having the talk about the video... that talk does not end with the leadership.  That talk goes straight to the bishop.  LEADERSHIP ERROR especially at that age group is a serious matter.

Edited by anatess2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lilyflowers88, there are two issues at play here.

ISSUE #1: How the YW leaders handled this situation

They handled it very poorly. The YW leaders, in seeking not to embarrass your daughter, blindsided her instead. Worse yet, they actually circumvented your authority. I expect they had only the best of intentions, so I'm not ready to condemn them for their foolish actions. But there is no doubt what they did was inappropriate. Your daughter's recounting of the "confrontation" was almost harrowing, but reading between the lines, I sense that they were really trying to allow her to save face in front of you while still trying to impress upon her just how unwise her actions were. Their thanks for her efforts to "reactivate" her friend while simultaneously telling her not to see the friend any more for a while suggests that they really did have good intentions, and were trying to look out for her welfare. Still, their actions were hamfisted and inappropriate.

What do you do about it? I would start by talking with the leaders directly. Be as kind as you can muster, but let them know that doing an end-around on you was wrong. If they have a problem with your daughter's actions outside of Church, they should consult with you. And yes, I do think you should let the bishop know, though not in some offical register-a-complaint way. Just a "By the way, Bishop, this unpleasant thing happened that I think you should know about."

ISSUE #2: What your daughter actually did

From your description, it sounds to me like there was nothing immoral about your daughter's actions per se. But I agree with the gist of what the YW leaders said: It was unwise and inappropriate. When you have videos of girls in showers or bathtubs, that implies nudity. Wearing swim suits may cover the nudity, but not the implication. Consider: Why did they do a video in a BATHTUB? And why in SWIMSUITS? Why not in Levi's and parkas? Obviously, it was a big joke about a "bathtub video" that didn't show any actual nudity.

Seriously, is it a normal thing in 21st-century America for young women to sit together in a bathtub in their swimsuits while they chat and listen to music? A hot tub, maybe. But a bathtub? I don't know, but that sounds plenty weird to me. If my teenage daughter were in the habit of sitting with a friend in a bathtub, I would tell her I thought it was inappropriate and a bad idea. If she were making videos of said bathtub adventures, that increases the weirdness quotient tenfold. No way would I ever allow her to publish such things to social media. yjacket is pretty much spot on in this area. However poorly the YW leaders handled this, not only was their heart (probably) in the right place, but what they were attempting to accomplish (poorly and outside of how they should have approached it) was probably what should happen. Your daughter needs guidance. She needs to be told that some things are not wise. She needs boundaries. You, her mother, should set those. This is where the YW leaders messed up; they should have gone to you, and YOU should have had that talk with your daughter, not them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest LiterateParakeet
6 minutes ago, yjacket said:

No, they aren't but teenagers aren't adults either and with teenagers you never quite know exactly what they will and won't do.  And again I'd first talk to the leadership before going off half-cocked on the Bishop.

I don't easily trust adults either. :).

I don't have a problem with the mom asking the Leaders what happened as you suggested. But as Anatess said, unless they completely deny it, tjere is an issue here. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Some teen girls are drama queens, but certainly not all. 

I think some teenagers period are drama queens. Male or female. 

Then again, I know some adults who are drama queens so...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bottom line is... something is not right here.

Does the bishop know what is going on?  If he does then Lilyflowers needs to learn that and understand what is going on from an Adult that has not lied about his intent.  If he does not know then he needs to be made aware so he can look into things so that he can pull the whole story together so he can take what ever action he feels in needed.

Thus she needs to talk to the bishop.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, anatess2 said:

Because you're backtracking when you're wanting to focus on the daughter instead of the leadership and you are yjacket who can't acknowledge you missed the point, so you wiggle out and make it look like we're the ones who can't get your point.  My mamma always says - you will end up with ulcers if you live your life that stiff all the time.

Sure, talk to the leadership.  But, unless the leadership says the child was lying about going to the park and having the talk about the video... that talk does not end with the leadership.  That talk goes straight to the bishop.  LEADERSHIP is a serious matter.

No, I'm not backtracking at all and I didn't miss the point.  IF the story is exactly like it is told, then yeah the Bishop should probably be involved.  But it most likely did not go down that way.  If probably went like this . . .let's go visit less-actives, they go visit less actives, (hey this is also a good opportunity to discuss appropriate on-line behavior) in a good setting-and in fact I would expect leadership to have those types of conversations with the kid-it's called mentoring and I had it all the time growing up.  The conversation probably was completely benign and more likely was just a hey we really need to be careful about xyz.  If that's the conversation, I have absolutely 0 problem with it. If the conversation was one where it was very harsh and denigrating then I might have a problem with it.  A lot of it has to do with tone and how it was done.

However, the story told to the parent is probably very different than what actually happened. And a parent should be able to tell within a couple min. conversation with the actual leadership about which version happened. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Vort said:

@Lilyflowers88, there are two issues at play here.

ISSUE #1: How the YW leaders handled this situation

They handled it very poorly. The YW leaders, in seeking not to embarrass your daughter, blindsided her instead. Worse yet, they actually circumvented your authority. I expect they had only the best of intentions, so I'm not ready to condemn them for their foolish actions. But there is no doubt what they did was inappropriate. Your daughter's recounting of the "confrontation" was almost harrowing, but reading between the lines, I sense that they were really trying to allow her to save face in front of you while still trying to impress upon her just how unwise her actions were. Their thanks for her efforts to "reactivate" her friend while simultaneously telling her not to see the friend any more for a while suggests that they really did have good intentions, and were trying to look out for her welfare. Still, their actions were hamfisted and inappropriate.

What do you do about it? I would start by talking with the leaders directly. Be as kind as you can muster, but let them know that doing an end-around on you was wrong. If they have a problem with your daughter's actions outside of Church, they should consult with you. And yes, I do think you should let the bishop know, though not in some offical register-a-complaint way. Just a "By the way, Bishop, this unpleasant thing happened that I think you should know about."

ISSUE #2: What your daughter actually did

From your description, it sounds to me like there was nothing immoral about your daughter's actions per se. But I agree with the gist of what the YW leaders said: It was unwise and inappropriate. When you have videos of girls in showers or bathtubs, that implies nudity. Wearing swim suits may cover the nudity, but not the implication. Consider: Why did they do a video in a BATHTUB? And why in SWIMSUITS? Why not in Levi's and parkas? Obviously, it was a big joke about a "bathtub video" that didn't show any actual nudity.

Seriously, is it a normal thing in 21st-century America for young women to sit together in a bathtub in their swimsuits while they chat and listen to music? A hot tub, maybe. But a bathtub? I don't know, but that sounds plenty weird to me. If my teenage daughter were in the habit of sitting with a friend in a bathtub, I would tell her I thought it was inappropriate and a bad idea. If she were making videos of said bathtub adventures, that increases the weirdness quotient tenfold. No way would I ever allow her to publish such things to social media. yjacket is pretty much spot on in this area. However poorly the YW leaders handled this, not only was their heart (probably) in the right place, but what they were attempting to accomplish (poorly and outside of how they should have approached it) was probably what should happen. Your daughter needs guidance. She needs to be told that some things are not wise. She needs boundaries. You, her mother, should set those. This is where the YW leaders messed up; they should have gone to you, and YOU should have had that talk with your daughter, not them.

Well said!

If it were me, I would probably let the bishop know.  I would probably be too mad at the leaders to have a constructive conversation with them and need someone I could have an intelligent conversation with this mess about.  I would probably be more open to receiving counsel and being told, "DoctorLemon, you are wrong on this one" (if necessary) from the bishop than from the leaders.

Would this be the right course of action?  Maybe, maybe not.  I am very defensive of my daughter - perhaps to a fault.  However, knowing myself, it would be what I would do in this situation.

Edited by DoctorLemon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

@Lilyflowers88, there are two issues at play here.

Vort said it much better than me!! Completely agree with Vort.

I would add, that I would only be ticked at the leadership not for pulling an end around but for not letting me know so I could also impress upon my child the inappropriateness of doing this behavior.

But if the parent thinks this type of stuff is totally cool-not much you can do about that.

Edited by yjacket
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

THAT'S ALL I NEED RIGHT THERE.  The leadership did not talk to her about it BEFORE they had that discussion with my daughter.  So, if you're taking the assumption that the daughter lied to her mother and that the leaders actually did not talk to her about it but went on their less-active route, then anything else is SERIOUS LEADERSHIP ERROR.

This.

This has absolutely nothing to do with mentoring or versions or the appropriateness of the bathtub livestream.

In one degree or another, the YW leaders talked with Lily's daughter about her behavior without Lily's permission. That's the nugget of truth I'd bet on in this story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

THIS IS SERIOUS STUFF.  This is usurping your authority as a parent, breaking the trust of your teen-ager, and doing possibly irreparable harm to your daughter's spirit and her trust in Church authority.  THIS IS A CHURCH LEADERSHIP ISSUE AND NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED WITH THE BISHOP.  This is one of those things that would give you reason to raise your hand NAY on ward conference.

Alternatively (per your second paragraph), one could approach this as a teaching moment by simply turning the other cheek -- forgiving the (probably well-meaning) leader, and helping one's daughter to do the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Backroads said:

In one degree or another, the YW leaders talked with Lily's daughter about her behavior without Lily's permission. That's the nugget of truth I'd bet on in this story.

I do agree that is probably the nugget of truth.  They did talk to her about it, but the manner, the intentions, etc who knows.  I personally don't think that YM/YW leadership needs to talk to parents about every behavioral/spiritual thing they see.  

I know growing up, there were plenty of times I was corrected by youth leadership without my parents knowledge-in fact that is actually one of the problems with today's society is that collectively everyone is afraid to discipline someone else's kid for exactly this reason. If you tell a child "that was bad", the child reacts tells mommy/daddy, mommy/daddy get in a big huff, defend the child, leadership/teacher gets defensive and child comes out smelling like a rose and an angel and leadership/teacher looks like the bad guy.  This is why children grow up entitled, spoiled brats.  They are unwilling and unable to take correction from anyone else and every time they get it they call mommy.

I expect/want/need leadership/teachers to discipline my child when I'm not there and without my supervision.  That is why they are leaders, I trust them to do the right thing, the best way they know how. I don't expect them to be perfect, but my children need mentors and correction from other outside of my supervision.

What I do ask is that when it is bad enough, discipline my child, then tell me so I can also discipline them.  They can get it in class and then get it when they come home.

This really doesn't bother me that much, leadership trying to do it's job the best it can.  The only thing that bothers me is that IMO this raises to the level that in addition to leadership providing mentoring/counsel/discipline, I need to be involved in it.

But really, people get upset b/c a YM leader has a talk with their son at Scout Camp about appropriate behavior (i.e. bullying, etc. or about modesty?) without informing the parent prior to doing so.  

Quite frankly, why is everyone in a big huff about it?  The child did something that was clearly inappropriate, leadership handled it and everyone is all up in arms at leadership?

I feel for anyone in those positions today.  I can't imagine being one, having to watch everything you say for fear that some parent will come and "tattle" on me b/c precious Johnny would never do xyz and "how dare you treat him like that", get called into the Bishop's office, etc.  Nope no thankyou!  

Edited by yjacket
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to say that @yjacket's more tempered response seems reasonable - get more info first, then move forward.  I can honestly say I've regretted going off half-cocked pretty much every time.  I'm not sure I've ever regretted getting more information first...

And I'm having no problem sitting here making up a credible story in my head which turns this all into one big fat misunderstanding.  Since it's possible that it was a misunderstanding, perhaps wisdom lies in getting more info...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, zil said:

I have to say that @yjacket's more tempered response seems reasonable - get more info first, then move forward.  I can honestly say I've regretted going off half-cocked pretty much every time.  I'm not sure I've ever regretted getting more information first...

And I'm having no problem sitting here making up a credible story in my head which turns this all into one big fat misunderstanding.  Since it's possible that it was a misunderstanding, perhaps wisdom lies in getting more info...

And the amazing thing is that if you listen to what they are telling you, you just might find out some truths that can help you better raise your child. The other day my kid got in trouble for humming in line at school (he's young and I thought well that's dumb that he got in trouble for humming-he made it seem like it was just him-of course I didn't ask him if it was just him).  Well parent-teacher conference was the next couple of days, the teacher brought it up that there were 7-8 boys all making a bunch of racket of which my son was one-who was adding to the racket by humming.  Then I said to myself, ah I originally that it was pretty ticky tacky to get in trouble for humming, but now I know why-it wasn't just him (if it had been he prob. wouldn't have gotten in trouble) it was a gaggle of boys being rowdy.

I had two choices, I could have gone in half-cocked thinking you idiot teacher why are you being so controlling or just let it go.  I let it go and then found out the story from her perspective. I also could have undercut the teachers authority by telling my son "your teacher is an idiot to get you in trouble for that", but I didn't, I just said well you best obey your teacher and stay out of trouble. My son knows I back up the teacher and he can't play me against his teacher.  

It has to be really bad for me to take my son's side and I'm sure at some point I might have to-but I also recognize that he is going to spin getting in trouble with his teacher in the absolute best light possible.

Edited by yjacket
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, zil said:

And I'm having no problem sitting here making up a credible story in my head which turns this all into one big fat misunderstanding.  Since it's possible that it was a misunderstanding, perhaps wisdom lies in getting more info...

I don't have the imagination you do that would turn this into a misunderstanding. But I do have online experience with the young woman in question. In a forum discussion, she misconstrued the majority voice counseling her mother to talk to the bishop as advice for her (the young woman) to go to the bishop. I don't think it means that she's a liar or stupid or any such thing. I think she had an embarrassing conversation (and it may actually be much worse than that). I think it would be worthwhile to see how the YW leaders would describe what happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, yjacket said:

I do agree that is probably the nugget of truth.  They did talk to her about it, but the manner, the intentions, etc who knows.  I personally don't think that YM/YW leadership needs to talk to parents about every behavioral/spiritual thing they see.  

I know growing up, there were plenty of times I was corrected by youth leadership without my parents knowledge-in fact that is actually one of the problems with today's society is that collectively everyone is afraid to discipline someone else's kid for exactly this reason. If you tell a child "that was bad", the child reacts tells mommy/daddy, mommy/daddy get in a big huff, defend the child, leadership/teacher gets defensive and child comes out smelling like a rose and an angel and leadership/teacher looks like the bad guy.  This is why children grow up entitled, spoiled brats.  They are unwilling and unable to take correction from anyone else and every time they get it they call mommy.

I expect/want/need leadership/teachers to discipline my child when I'm not there and without my supervision.  That is why they are leaders, I trust them to do the right thing, the best way they know how. I don't expect them to be perfect, but my children need mentors and correction from other outside of my supervision.

What I do ask is that when it is bad enough, discipline my child, then tell me so I can also discipline them.  They can get it in class and then get it when they come home.

This really doesn't bother me that much, leadership trying to do it's job the best it can.  The only thing that bothers me is that IMO this raises to the level that in addition to leadership providing mentoring/counsel/discipline, I need to be involved in it.

But really, people get upset b/c a YM leader has a talk with their son at Scout Camp about appropriate behavior (i.e. bullying, etc. or about modesty?) without informing the parent prior to doing so.  

Quite frankly, why is everyone in a big huff about it?  The child did something that was clearly inappropriate, leadership handled it and everyone is all up in arms at leadership?

I feel for anyone in those positions today.  I can't imagine being one, having to watch everything you say for fear that some parent will come and "tattle" on me b/c precious Johnny would never do xyz and "how dare you treat him like that", get called into the Bishop's office, etc.  Nope no thankyou!  

I think there is a lot of truth to what yjacket has been saying.  I absolutely agree, church leaders should be able to offer correction.

My biggest issue is why did the leaders lie to get the daughter alone?  And why take the daughter to a park, an isolated area where the daughter would not be in familiar surroundings, to issue the chastisement?  I find this method of delivering correction . . . troubling.  

While I don't think the leaders should have to seek parental permission first, perhaps this would have been less problematic had the leaders instead pulled the child aside for a few minutes at church or something and had the talk.  Why the deception?  Could I trust someone who lied to me to take my child somewhere ever again?  Why lie about it?  

Edited by DoctorLemon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Alternatively (per your second paragraph), one could approach this as a teaching moment by simply turning the other cheek -- forgiving the (probably well-meaning) leader, and helping one's daughter to do the same.

No.  Forgiveness and kindness and compassion doesn't negate the necessity of bringing this up with the Bishop.  This is an error in Church Leadership and needs to be addressed as such.  The parent has no priesthood authority over the YW presidency of the Church.  ONLY the bishop does.  These kinds of things cannot be allowed to happen again.  It's bad enough it happened once already.  If this was something some other parent did while performing their church calling - then it needs to be brought up to their respective Presidencies so that efforts are made to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again.  If this was something that happened in school, it needs to be brought up to the principal or if it was the principal then to the district.  In any case, corrective action is needed by someone of authority within that organization.

Edited by anatess2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lilyflowers88. I am so sorry this happened. You are not over reacting. The Yw leaders lied to you. How dare they. I would email the Bishop. I would explain to the Bishop what happened and ask for a meeting with him. After this meeting, I would consider asking for a meeting with yourself, the bishop and the YW leaders. The YW leadership kidnapped your daughter. Illegal and unsafe!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I think there is a lot of truth to what yjacket has been saying.  I absolutely agree, church leaders should be able to offer correction.

My biggest issue is why did the leaders lie to get the daughter alone?  And why take the daughter to a park, an isolated area where the daughter would not be in familiar surroundings, to issue the chastisement?  I find this method of delivering correction . . . troubling.  

While I don't think the leaders should have to seek parental permission first, perhaps this would have been less problematic had the leaders instead pulled the child aside for a few minutes at church or something and had the talk.  Why the deception?  Could I trust someone who lied to me to take my child somewhere ever again?  Why lie about it?  

(Big sigh). Everyone is taking the story of the daughter at face value and hardly anyone is giving the leadership the benefit of the doubt-so, so sad.

Everyone is believing the word of a 16 year old and no one has actually talked to the leadership who are probably at least 2x-4x the age of the girl have raised kids, lived life, etc. 

What a sad, sad world we live in where the 3rd hand story of a 16 year old is elevated and given such stature without even confirming that it is true.

Despicable.

Edited by yjacket
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • pam featured this topic
  • pam unfeatured this topic

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share