Am I overreacting?


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6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If it's legal, follows the clearly defined rules/policies of whatever institution, etc., then who's place is it to determine where the cut becomes too "french" for another adult?

As I wrote earlier, we have the French to blame.

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A point connected to nothing and everything, but I feel compelled to make it before I continue with my day:

I feel more and more all the time that stewardship and organized Priesthood authority are Eternal principals that are way, way more important than we give them credit for. They are tied to agency, to temple work, to parenting, to our callings... everything, really. God's house is one of order. Everyone bossing anyone around willy-nilly is not His way. That's why there's a line of authority you go through and procedures for things. We don't get to boss someone around just because we are older or bigger or louder; but we do get the privilege of leading and teaching, and sometimes counseling where we have the stewardship to do so, and under the direction of those Priesthood leaders over our callings. 

 

 

As it pertains to a Young Woman in the church, I understand that authority to go this way:

Parents

Bishop

YW leaders (limited) 

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15 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

A point connected to nothing and everything, but I feel compelled to make it before I continue with my day:

I feel more and more all the time that stewardship and organized Priesthood authority are Eternal principals that are way, way more important than we give them credit for. They are tied to agency, to temple work, to parenting, to our callings... everything, really. God's house is one of order. Everyone bossing anyone around willy-nilly is not His way. That's why there's a line of authority you go through and procedures for things. We don't get to boss someone around just because we are older or bigger or louder; but we do get the privilege of leading and teaching, and sometimes counseling where we have the stewardship to do so, and under the direction of those Priesthood leaders over our callings. 

 

 

As it pertains to a Young Woman in the church, I understand that authority to go this way:

Parents

Bishop

YW leaders (limited) 

I like this thought. A few thoughts in response.

I only think that hierarchy works with certain things. Obviously the stewardship of a bishop as judge in Israel does not depend on the parent's in the hierarchy.

Also, I'm not entirely convinced that teaching, exhorting, or even correcting others has anything to do with priesthood authority at all.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

.

Also, I'm not entirely convinced that teaching, exhorting, or even correcting others has anything to do with priesthood authority at all.

I absolutely think it does when we're acting under the title of a calling.

I think it applies in other areas as well, but that might be suited to another thread (and I have to get back to work). 

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Editing....

Yep...misread. Response deleted.

Obviously when you are authorized to teach (a calling) then that comes from priesthood authority. That does not make the reverse true, which is my point. I'm not convinced that authority is required to teach, exhort or correct someone.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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44 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

yjacket interprets the rules and corrects anyone as needed? I think there is a structure, just a disagreement as to when and by whom it should be enforced. 

?? The only person I have really corrected here is Lilyflower.  The rest is disagreement.  I'm pretty confident in my positions and up until the late 70s my way of thinking was absolutely without a doubt the majority way of thinking in the US. I was raised that way as were a significant portion of my peers.  

As a child, you didn't backtalk authority-regardless of whether you thought it was fair or not; the vast majority of parents sided first with the teachers then with their kids.  Complaining about a teacher would more likely than not mean you as a child were doing something wrong-there were exceptions of course, but this pervasive attitude of "don't you dare discipline my child" was rare, but getting more and more common. If you complained about a teacher doing something the likely response from the parent was "well you probably deserved it". Kids were sent to ISS, etc.  In my kids school, they never sent the kids to ISS (and I remember in the same grade plenty of kids going to ISS). In my local school system they were just getting rid of corporal punishment.  In fact the ruling had only recently been decided by the Supreme Court

"There is no federal law addressing corporal punishment in public or private schools. In 1977, the Supreme Court ruling in Ingraham v. Wright held that the Eighth Amendment clause prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishments" did not apply to school students, and that teachers could punish children without parental permission."

Contrast that attitude to the attitudes displayed on this thread. It was understood by most parents that school and leaders were expected to discipline and punish children who didn't toe the school rules, regardless of whether the parents agreed with the rules.  If as a parent you didn't agree with the rules you either became a part of PTSA and worked with teachers to change the rules or put your kid in another school-you didn't immediately go to the teacher and berate him/her b/c you think he/she was out of line.

And by and large kids were more respecting of their elders and transitioned to adulthood fairly smoothly.  Contrast that with today.

I might be wrong . . .but I'm pretty darn confident in my opinions.

 

Edited by yjacket
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1 minute ago, yjacket said:

As a child, you didn't backtalk authority-regardless of whether you thought it was fair or not;

Only two of my five children have tried to backtalk me and I shut it down, immediately (with words.)  Basically my rule is I treat you with respect and you will treat me with respect as well.  They can express disagreement, as long as it is done respectfully and very occasionally if I see the need I tell them "we're done with this conversation now.  You are free to disagree, but we're done talking about it."   I think it is precisely because I teach my kids mutual respect that I didn't get more back talk than I have (three teenagers down, one in progress, one to go, LOL!) 

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45 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

How did we get to corporal punishment? (Raise a hand to my kid and you'll see how strong I am.) (Dangit I really have to work now.)

Ugh, my point wasn't about corporal punishment.  My point was and is that your attitude and several others attitude on this thread about how "don't you dare discipline/talk to my child without my permission" is a modern invention and is utterly and completely bogus.  It is not the way children have been raised in the past nor is it the way they should be raised today.  

And my evidence of that is simply the fruits of it.  Compare and contrast the rising generation today vs. 50 years ago-huge difference then vs. snowflake generation today.  How did they become snowflakes?  This is the exact process by how and why we have a generation of wimps and pansies being raised.

You don't like the idea of someone else disciplining your child without your express permission; I get it. I'm telling you that on a society wide level, this is one of the major reasons why we are in the mess we are today.

Believe me or not, I don't care-I know I'm right on this issue.

That is why to me, this whole thing is mostly a nothingburger-it could be more but I doubt it and until a direct personal conversation is had with the leadership involved and contrary information is found (i.e. it really was some sinister, nefarious plot)-it is a nothingburger.

More to the point, rather than directing the responsibility for this whole debacle rightly where it belongs-the child!-everyone blames the leadership. The child did something, very dumb and very stupid.  No one on here denies that; instead of focusing on what the child did that was wrong that put herself in this situation-everyone blames the leadership.  It ain't leaderships fault here. Could they do things better, sure. We all can, it's called life.  By virtue of being in a leadership position, it means you will make decisions that people will disagree with (geez, it's like no one has ever been a leader here?). Could the leader learn from this experience, absolutely.

But my guess is that the leaders are actually really good people, they are probably temple worthy, simply trying to do their best.  Who needs the correction more? The leaders or a stupid, very impressionable and immature 16-17 year-old girl who is supposed to be a role model for other young women? As a young lady, this is an important lesson to learn, you don't want to get called on the carpet for doing something stupid, don't do something stupid. And your actions are your responsibility, not your parents.

There are only a few reasons why a 16-17 year old would do this.  Either they are completely immature and "just playing around" or they are trying to catch boys, or the leadership sees/knows of other information that would lead them to caution against homosexuality- none of those reasons are good reasons. As part of teaching LoC, I expect leadership to augment my teachings and to help teach if I have missed something about appropriate behaviors related to our bodies. That is why they are YM/YW leaders, I trust them to do so-even if I disagree with some aspects about how it might be taught.

Instead what it really appears is that several people believe that what the daughter did was no big deal and are therefore dinging the leadership for being too Pharisaical or whatnot. If you can't see why what this young lady did was inappropriate and very stupid; well I can't really help you.

She needed to be called on the carpet for it, and I'm glad that someone did it-as her mother obviously sees this as no big deal.  If not her parents at least some church leader was willing to have the guts, fortitude and strength to do so.  It actually gives me hope that not all is lost in this world. This young lady will be better for it.

Snowflake generation hits it right on the head; no one can take loving corrective guidance anymore-it's all about "how dare you tell me what to do".

Edited by yjacket
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To me, it isn't about discipline a child.  It's about a worker in the ministry being able and willing to take criticism and correction from someone higher up in the ministerial hierarchy without (pardon the insensitivity here) running home to mommy about it.

And while I realize an earlier comment in this vein was tongue-in-cheek; I think there was a healthy dose of truth there:  If one isn't prepared to handle the accountability and the emotional difficulties of the ministry, then--male or female--one shouldn't be agitating for a place in the ministry.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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23 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

To me, it isn't about discipline a child.  It's about a worker in the ministry being able and willing to take criticism and correction from someone higher up in the ministerial hierarchy without (pardon the insensitivity here) running home to mommy about it.

And while I realize an earlier comment in this vein was tongue-in-cheek; I think there was a healthy dose of truth there:  If one isn't prepared to handle the accountability and the emotional difficulties of the ministry, then--male or female--one shouldn't be agitating for a place in the ministry.

Totally agree, you come at it from a different angle and have a different perspective, but I like your perspective and angle.  +1 :-).

And my guess is that is exactly why they talked to her first rather than her parents.  They figured she is responsible enough to be a Laurel leader and part of that responsibility is to take direct feedback and criticism from your superiors.  Going to her parents first would circumvent that process.  I'm sure if they felt it was a very, very big problem they would have gone to the parents also. The young lady is close to being an a legal adult, better start growing up and acting like it now-again no one in the YW presidency is going to do this type of thing but Laural president gets a pass? Don't think so.

Edited by yjacket
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I would also like to say to the young lady (if she is reading as I'm not sure if it was her or her mother who posted).  

I'm sure you are a pretty good kid; you wouldn't have been called to be Laurel President if they didn't feel inspired to call you and if they didn't think you are a good kid. Sometimes good kids and good people do stupid things, even in leadership roles-it happens.  This probably isn't the first time and it certainly won't be the last time.  Just because you do something dumb doesn't make you a bad kid or a bad person, it's called a learning experience.  

Whether you like it or not, recognize it or not your youth leaders have a lot of wisdom and experience.  When they correct, they are doing so from a position of love and guidance. Because of their life experience they can see pitfalls that you cannot see.  That is the way life works.  A huge key in life is to find people who have experience and wisdom in a particular area and try to emulate them with the greatest teacher being Jesus Christ. 

Rather than being up in arms or rebellious about it, humbly take their criticisms and find out what you can do in your life to become more of a role model for other young women. Sometimes in life it can be very, very hard to take criticism and feedback-but again that is part of life.  The sooner you are able to take criticisms of what other people say evaluate the merits of it and be obedient to those in a leadership position over you, the easier life will be for you. The sooner you are able to forgive those who you feel wronged you or hurt you-especially those who have stewardship over you-the easier life will be.

This experience can either be a great learning and teaching experience for you or it can be a thorn in your side for a very, very long time. You have to make the decision of which it will be.  I personally have learned that it is better to learn from experiences (even those that bring me pain and suffering) rather than let it be a thorn and a blistering sore.

You are most likely 16-17 and while still a child are very close to being a legal adult as such being an adult requires a lot of responsibility. As Corinthians 1 13::11 states:

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man (or woman), I put away childish things. "

Learn to differentiate between the things that a child does and the things that a man or woman does-ideally as part of the Laurel presidency you are much further ahead than your peers in putting away childish things.

 

Edited by yjacket
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1 hour ago, yjacket said:

"don't you dare discipline/talk to my child without my permission"

I never said that. I said don't hit my child, and that it's a parent's say who/when they are spoken to about their sexuality. I'm very supportive of appropriate correction when someone has the authority or is the only one available at the time to stop a behavior that needs stopped right then. 

1 hour ago, yjacket said:

Believe me or not, I don't care-I know I'm right on this issue.

Well since you can't possibly learn anything from anyone else, I guess there's nothing else to say.

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Well, I've read the whole thread. Some observations that should be stated:

 

1. I'm 89% sure that @yjacket will never become the Young Women's president. He's just too heavy handed...

 

2. @Lilyflowers88 is obviously upset at the incident and the way it was handled. Whether it was right, wrong, both, or neither, it would be good to speak with someone about the situation. A lot of who she speaks with depends on who she trusts and is comfortable speaking to about the matter. The Bishop is a great resource! If not, there are other leaders who hold keys in the ward. For instance, the Elder's Quorum President holds keys and is able to offer some guidance and counsel. If the discussion turns to worthiness issues, however, it will ultimately need to go to the Bishop. 

 

3. @Lilyflowers88, might I recommend, as was suggested earlier, that you treat this OPPORTUNITY for what it really is; a chance to apply the gospel of Jesus Christ? It is also a great OPPORTUNITY to help strengthen your daughter's testimony of the Savior. Pray about a solution with her. Be willing to repent and accept counsel as needed. Be willing to forgive. Help your daughter to do so, also. Don't let this really neat OPPORTUNITY to teach your daughter pass you by! 

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The dishonesty that the YW leaders exhibited is appalling. Yet, the teenage girl *does* fall under their stewardship, so as a parent I wouldn't be completely against the YW leaders offering some sort of advice/correction to my child, as long as it was offered in a more appropriate setting. Perhaps the YW speaking with my child in a room at church, just after the 3 hour block. I could see that being much more palatable. That said, my preference would be for the YW leaders to just notify the parent about it, and leave it up to the parent to have a chat with the child. 

I also agree that a video like that should not be on social media. If it were my daughter, I would definitely have a short chat about it's appropriateness. Nothing stern, as it seems there was no evil intent -- it was innocent enough. Sometimes people make unwise choices without really understanding why the choice was unwise. If my child did this, I would not think too much of it; I would have a quick chat with the child, but no discipline per se.

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9 minutes ago, Colirio said:

For instance, the Elder's Quorum President holds keys and is able to offer some guidance and counsel.

I like most of what you said, however, the EQP has exactly 0 stewardship in this situation.  The keys the EQP holds have nothing to do with this woman's issue.  His stewardship only applies as it pertains to Home Teaching for this family, but not the Young Women's leaders because they are a side organization not a subordinate organization.  He is not the person to go to at all, unless he is their friend and they just want some friendly advice (but isn't that why they posted here?).

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26 minutes ago, Colirio said:

The Bishop is a great resource! If not, there are other leaders who hold keys in the ward. For instance, the Elder's Quorum President holds keys and is able to offer some guidance and counsel. If the discussion turns to worthiness issues, however, it will ultimately need to go to the Bishop. 

Not sure if I understand you correctly. But to clarify, the elders quorum president does not hold keys to the Young Women's program. These ward auxiliaries are all under the auspices of the bishop.

4 minutes ago, eddified said:

The dishonesty that the YW leaders exhibited is appalling. Yet, the teenage girl *does* fall under their stewardship, so as a parent I wouldn't be completely against the YW leaders offering some sort of advice/correction to my child, as long as it was offered in a more appropriate setting.

Not to flog a dead horse too much, but we do not have any story from the YW president, only a second-hand report originating in a 16-year-old with hurt feelings. We might be wise to temper our judgment on this matter.

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38 minutes ago, Colirio said:

Well, I've read the whole thread. Some observations that should be stated:

 

1. I'm 89% sure that @yjacket will never become the Young Women's president. He's just too heavy handed...

 

2. @Lilyflowers88 is obviously upset at the incident and the way it was handled. Whether it was right, wrong, both, or neither, it would be good to speak with someone about the situation. A lot of who she speaks with depends on who she trusts and is comfortable speaking to about the matter. The Bishop is a great resource! If not, there are other leaders who hold keys in the ward. For instance, the Elder's Quorum President holds keys and is able to offer some guidance and counsel. If the discussion turns to worthiness issues, however, it will ultimately need to go to the Bishop. 

 

3. @Lilyflowers88, might I recommend, as was suggested earlier, that you treat this OPPORTUNITY for what it really is; a chance to apply the gospel of Jesus Christ? It is also a great OPPORTUNITY to help strengthen your daughter's testimony of the Savior. Pray about a solution with her. Be willing to repent and accept counsel as needed. Be willing to forgive. Help your daughter to do so, also. Don't let this really neat OPPORTUNITY to teach your daughter pass you by! 

Considering I'm not a female, I'd say that is a 100% chance and that's a good thing! :-).

But I am a father of several girls-so I do have just a little bit of experience in dealing with girls. I hope you did read my comments to the young lady herself-if that is heavy handed that I'd hate to see what not being heavy handed is like.

I like to call it, the unvarnished truth. It's just that people are so used to tip-toeing around issues that they have no idea what heavy-handed is. 

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8 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Considering I'm not a female

Oh the jokes I could make with this line. 

::Takes the high road:: 

Edited by MormonGator
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1 hour ago, Eowyn said:

I never said that. I said don't hit my child, and that it's a parent's say who/when they are spoken to about their sexuality. I'm very supportive of appropriate correction when someone has the authority or is the only one available at the time to stop a behavior that needs stopped right then. 

Well since you can't possibly learn anything from anyone else, I guess there's nothing else to say.

Let's see in this thread, I've apologized to backroads, I've agreed with JAG on a different perspective.  Does that really sound like someone who "can't possibly learn anything from anyone else"? I haven't heard anyone else apologize or agree on a different perspective, anyone? (crickets .. .. ).

I have studied this issue quite a bit, I've given it a lot of thought.  I've observed, I've reflected and I've come to my own conclusions as to exactly why we have a snowflake generation. I'd love to hear another opinions on why is it exactly that the next generation of kids have more mental problems, have more issues sexual issues, are generally more messed up and have difficulties transitioning to being an adult, more problems leaving the nest, etc. etc. than any other generation in at least the last 100 years.

Please give me another logical, reasonable explanation.  I'm all ears.

--------

So you are saying that YW leadership do not have authority to discuss LoC issues with young women.  Since when did discussing sexuality with a 16-17 year old from their leadership become this huge deal? Is that really what we are driving at here? That you are so concerned that your child might be homosexual that it is outside the realm of leadership to discuss that homosexual behavior is against the LoC.  If leadership can't discuss this with 16-17 year old kids, i.e. that homosexual behavior is against the LoC, then we might as well stop believing it is a sin.

And that is exactly what you are driving at, you've become so enamored with the world's view of sexuality that heaven forbid that an actual religious leader over youth actually discuss with them some of the most important decisions they will ever make in their life . .. that homosexual behavior is without a doubt against God's Law.

What exactly is wrong with that?  This is pretty simple, either homosexual behavior is or isn't against the LoC.  If it is against the LoC, they absolutely have an obligation to teach it to the youth. 

Why are you so afraid of leadership teaching truth to the youth?  If the child is actually "born that way" (which I don't believe, but make allowance that it may be the case), then the child better learn acceptable behavior real dang fast if they want to stay worthy in God's church. And what better way to learn than from righteous leadership.  

This isn't hard, I had plenty of talks from leadership growing up on these subjects.  But now b/c of this modern age it's now taboo and only parents should teach it?  At that point, why even go to Church b/c there are going to be plenty of things that teachers teach that haven't been taught in the same way by parents.

If you are talking about teaching the birds and the bees, I get it-but no one is talking about leadership teaching the birds and the bees to kids-just what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

Edited by yjacket
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23 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Considering I'm not a female, I'd say that is a 100% chance and that's a good thing! :-).

 

Thus the joke.... :) 

 

As the OP stated that one of the women in question is married to the Bishop, I can see where alternative solutions could be presented. (Especially when we have so little information about the entirety of the matter.) If @Vort and @person0 would read carefully what I said, they would see that I never insinuated that the EQP had anything to do with the young woman's presidency... :huh:

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yjacket you are so offensively off-base in your evaluation of who I am and what I think that it's not even worth trying to further clarify everything I've already said in this thread. 

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