Am I Good Enough? Will I Make It?


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We had a discussion in priesthood about the following talk:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/am-i-good-enough-will-i-make-it?lang=eng

But I'm afraid most of the people, myself included, completely missed the point.  I kept hearing the phrase "make it across the line."  But it was stated in such a way that there is this particular measure on the "good/evil" measuring bar.  And we had to be "at least this tall take this ride."  I voiced my disagreement with that sentiment.  My main objection was that it may actually be a hindrance for many.

If there is this "line" to cross, then we get the impression that if we're on that side of it, we can coast.  That is not what the gospel teaches.  That's not what Elder Cornish's talk was about.  It is about ETERNAL progression.  We're here to perfect ourselves.  But we will never be perfect in this life.  That is why Christ had to do things for us.  But it doesn't mean we can coast because we just "leave it all to the Lord."

Elder Cornish's talk basically founds itself on the Quote from Pres. Hinckley.

Quote

Brothers and sisters, all the Lord expects of us is to try, but you have to really try!

Then he spoke of how much the Lord WANTS us to succeed.  He WANTS to perfect us.  But we can only do so by continually repenting without rationalization or rebellion.

Edited by Guest
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There is an excellent book on this topic called, "I'm not perfect.  Can I still go to heaven?"  by Anthony Sweat.  

I have a feeling most Mormons who are concerned about this stuff are worried about winding up in the Terrestrial Kingdom instead of the Celestial Kingdom.  (I assume most Mormons who are not carrying around unrepented adultery-level sins are not worrying about ending up in the Telestial Kingdom).  Sweat argues that too many Mormons assume they will wind up in the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is a little silly when dealing with active Mormons who are going to Church, magnifying their callings, and repenting of their sins.  Essentially, if you have repented of any major sins, and you are putting forth any efforts at all towards moving forward (which comes by attending your meetings, magnifying your callings, paying tithing, keeping commandments, praying, etc.), even if you are only moving forward very slowly, you will make it and should change your focus from fear to faith and hope.

Don't use my above comments as an excuse to get lazy, though - if you get lukewarm and stop coming to church, stop magnifying your callings, and stop keeping the commandments, you could miss the Celestial Kingdom.  However, do use my above comments as a means of switching your perspective from fear to hope.

I personally believe this is why we have temple recommend interviews - the temple recommend questions are designed to see how you measure up to Celestial standards.  If you are truly worthy for a temple recommend, chances are you are worthy for the Celestial Kingdom.  If not, make whatever changes you need - some of the changes can be made in an instant.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

We're here to perfect ourselves.  But we will never be perfect in this life.  That is why Christ had to do things for us.  But it doesn't mean we can coast because we just "leave it all to the Lord."

On the cross Jesus told a criminal hanging alongside him (who stood up for Jesus at that moment) that he would soon be in paradise (Luke 23:32-43)  Presumably this guy had absolutely zero works going for him, but that didn't prevent Jesus from accepting Him.  So why do we think we are held to a different standard?

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7 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I personally believe this is why we have temple recommend interviews - the temple recommend questions are designed to see how you measure up to Celestial standards.  If you are truly worthy for a temple recommend, chances are you are worthy for the Celestial Kingdom.  If not, make whatever changes you need - some of the changes can be made in an instant.

This makes me believe that we simply don't put enough emphasis on the last(?) question: Is there anything in your life that is not in line with gospel standards.  (or whatever the wording is).

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8 minutes ago, runewell said:

On the cross Jesus told a criminal hanging alongside him (who stood up for Jesus at that moment) that he would soon be in paradise (Luke 23:32-43)  Presumably this guy had absolutely zero works going for him, but that didn't prevent Jesus from accepting Him.  So why do we think we are held to a different standard?

You don't know that.  The very fact that he was admitting his guilt while praising the Savior would indicate repentance.

Quote

32 And there were also two other, amalefactors, led with him to be put to death.

...

39  And one of the malefactors which were hanged arailed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due areward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in aparadise

There were TWO malefactors.  Why save the one and not the other?  One was repentant, the other was not.  Yes, we do indeed need to repent.  We always need to repent.  Refusal to repent is precisely the rebellion that will prevent us from inheriting the Glory of God.

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@runewell In my experience most Christians of other faiths do not understand the word 'works' the same way we do (which contributes to confusion in their faith vs works perspective).  Most people do not realize that prayer, repentance, scripture studies, and every other gospel related action, are all works.  I was talking to a former employer one time about faith vs works and he finally told me about how giving to the poor, etc was his idea of works and I came to the realization that he did not interpret it the way we do (even though he acknowledged that those things were important commandments).

My perspective is that works (in the gospel) is anything that you do with your mind or body to take action that leads you to Christ.  So as @Carborendum said, the very fact that he was admitting guilt and acknowledging the Savior is in itself a work.

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13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There were TWO malefactors.  Why save the one and not the other?  One was repentant, the other was not.  Yes, we do indeed need to repent.  We always need to repent.  Refusal to repent is precisely the rebellion that will prevent us from inheriting the Glory of God.

I agree.  

My point is, Jesus didn't seem to think that anything else was required apart from this confession.  If a confession of sin to Jesus is all that's required, then where does the really try come in?  If something beyond that is required, then was Jesus somehow not aware of the total requirement?

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Again, you don't know that.

Well it must be the case that either:

1) The malefactor was really trying, despite getting a death sentence on a cross, since Jesus accepted him. OR

2) Really trying wasn't necessary, OR

3) Jesus was deluded or lying.

Or is there a 4th possibility?

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19 minutes ago, runewell said:

Well it must be the case that either:

1) The malefactor was really trying, despite getting a death sentence on a cross, since Jesus accepted him. OR

2) Really trying wasn't necessary, OR

3) Jesus was deluded or lying.

Or is there a 4th possibility?

#1 is clearly the case. You know nothing at all about the "malefactor" except that he had been condemned to death for thievery, a charge of which he himself admitted guilt (or at least admitted he deserved his punishment). But you do not know his background, how long he waited for his death sentence, why he did as he did, or anything else.

This forum is called "LDS Gospel Discussions", not "runewell's Theological Speculations". Please avoid coming here and lecturing us on what we believe or on why we are wrong.

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In reality, none of us are really at a point at death to inherit celestial glory. Celestial glory requires complete spotlessness from sin, it requires perfection. Our mortal experience is so short and plagued with so many unforseen circumstances that there is no way this life is some kind of "final test" to be worthy for exaltation. Hardly anyone is given the perfect situation that will allow them to be anywhere close to perfection at death. Of all the billions and billions of souls who have walked the earth only a very slight part have ever even had the true scenerio to accept the gospel and work towards perfection. We have such a flaw in our understanding of these things. The great millennium will be that period where man will live in the perfect scenerio to work towards the needed perfection required. A thousand years with Christ and his love and guidance will be what it takes for all of us who have had a taste of salvation in mortality or the spirit world to work line upon line until we are worthy of actual salvation from our sins. It is this precise reason that I do not worry about becoming perfect before death. I could die today and then what? 

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6 minutes ago, Vort said:

#1 is clearly the case. You know nothing at all about the "malefactor" except that he had been condemned to death for thievery, a charge of which he himself admitted guilt (or at least admitted he deserved his punishment). But you do not know his background, how long he waited for his death sentence, why he did as he did, or anything else.

This forum is called "LDS Gospel Discussions", not "runewell's Theological Speculations". Please avoid coming here and lecturing us on what we believe or on why we are wrong.

Well since you don't know his background either (apart from what is written), I don't see how you can confidently conclude that #1 must be the case.

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3 minutes ago, runewell said:

Well since you don't know his background either (apart from what is written), I don't see how you can confidently conclude that #1 must be the case.

Because #2 "really trying wasn't necessary" and #3 "Jesus was deluded or lying" are both absurd.

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

Because #2 "really trying wasn't necessary" and #3 "Jesus was deluded or lying" are both absurd.

But isn't "Really trying ends up with capital punishment" equally absurd?  How many people really believe that someone given a death sentence was doing all they could do?

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7 minutes ago, runewell said:

But isn't "Really trying ends up with capital punishment" equally absurd?  How many people really believe that someone given a death sentence was doing all they could do?

No, it is not equally absurd. I'm amazed that you would think so. Preaching Christianity is a capital offense in some parts of the world. Do I then assume that you think preaching Christianity is an evil thing?

Where did the phrase "doing all they could do" come from? I haven't seen it in this thread until just now.

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2 minutes ago, runewell said:

But isn't "Really trying ends up with capital punishment" equally absurd?

You're an expert on the ancient Roman penal system?

3 minutes ago, runewell said:

How many people really believe that someone given a death sentence was doing all they could do?

Apparently Christ did.  And perhaps you should be looking for beams.

There's another forum here for discussing generic Christian beliefs.  If you wish to discuss the differences between your beliefs and LDS beliefs, you should initiate a discussion over there. (PS: If you're hoping to convince a bunch of faithful Mormons that they've got it wrong, you're in for an exercise in futility.  If you want to have a civilized discussion on differences in belief, then that other forum is the place to be.  If you want to understand what we believe, this is a good place for it, but you're not asking for clarification / explanation, you're arguing we don't understand (but we do understand, and our understanding is different from what you believe about this event).)

I say all that not to discourage discussion, but to save you time and headache in whatever your discussion goals are. :)

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10 minutes ago, runewell said:

But isn't "Really trying ends up with capital punishment" equally absurd?  How many people really believe that someone given a death sentence was doing all they could do?

Jesus was given a death sentence, what did he do wrong?

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3 minutes ago, zil said:

You're an expert on the ancient Roman penal system?

Apparently Christ did.  And perhaps you should be looking for beams.

Winner winner chicken dinner!!!  I was about to interject with this.  Apparently, @runewell isn't aware that Jesus was an innocent man who was condemned to death by the Roman legal system.  But remember, he's an expert on Jesus.

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

No, it is not equally absurd. I'm amazed that you would think so. Preaching Christianity is a capital offense in some parts of the world. Do I then assume that you think preaching Christianity is an evil thing?

Where did the phrase "doing all they could do" come from? I haven't seen it in this thread until just now.

One of the criminals admitted, "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” - they probably weren't preaching Christ seeing as he was right there.  As for the "doing all they could do..."

2 Nephi 25:23

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

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1 hour ago, runewell said:

Well it must be the case that either:

1) The malefactor was really trying, despite getting a death sentence on a cross, since Jesus accepted him. OR

2) Really trying wasn't necessary, OR

3) Jesus was deluded or lying.

Or is there a 4th possibility?

I'm not going to go for #4 because neither of us believes that.  Likewise #3.  It is interesting that you're putting that up there when you know neither of us believes that.  That is a sign that you're simply choosing to be argumentative.

But let's take a look at #1 & #2.  I believe #1.  You believe #2.

If really trying isn't necessary, why would you condemn someone for wanting to repent?  That's what "really trying" means.  We must have a mentality and desire to repent of all our sins.  That is how we come unto Christ.  But you don't want someone to repent, so you don't want us to come unto Christ.

Gee, your brand of Christianity doesn't want us to come to Christ?  Who is it that is telling you this makes any kind of sense?

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Winner winner chicken dinner!!!

:wow: Oh goody!  KFC?  I can hear my arteries hardening in anticipation!  Or maybe some alfredo?  (Why doesn't this forum have a drool icon?  Other forums using the same software have drool icons...)

PS: Anyone want to quote James now, or do I need to go find the verses?  (Sorry, @runewell, but this works / grace cycle has been hashed to death a million times - probably before you were born.)

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4 minutes ago, runewell said:

One of the criminals admitted, "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” - they probably weren't preaching Christ seeing as he was right there.

So what? You were the one using their death sentence as a judgment against them. Do you say the same about Jesus?

5 minutes ago, runewell said:

As for the "doing all they could do..."

2 Nephi 25:23

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ah. Now we get to the meat of the issue. You weren't really responding to the thread at all; you were trying to preach your anti-Mormon nonsense.

And you failed spectacularly, and rather hilariously.

The two scriptures you cite teach the same prenciple, using similar wording. Nephi taught that even after all we can do, it's by grace that we are saved -- the very same thing Paul taught. How 'bout that.

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Just now, zil said:

:wow: Oh goody!  KFC?  I can hear my arteries hardening in anticipation!  Or maybe some alfredo?  (Why doesn't this forum have a drool icon?  Other forums using the same software have drool icons...)

PS: Anyone want to quote James now, or do I need to go find the verses?  (Sorry, @runewell, but this works / grace cycle has been hashed to death a million times - probably before you were born.)

You do know that KFC is actually owned by a secret satanic cult, right?  They put an addictive substance in their chicken that makes you crave for it nightly.  But my wife is immune to such enticings of the evil one.  She keeps us away from that poultry of the underworld.  We must stay true to Chik-fil-a, the only true and living chicken fast food with which we are well pleased.

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

If really trying isn't necessary, why would you condemn someone for wanting to repent?  That's what "really trying" means.  We must have a mentality and desire to repent of all our sins.  That is how we come unto Christ.  But you don't want someone to repent, so you don't want us to come unto Christ.

If he meant "repent", why didn't he just say "repent"?  "Really trying" implies more than repent.  Of course I am all for repentance and coming to Christ.

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