Am I Good Enough? Will I Make It?

[person0]

The Spirit of God bears witness of you malintent @runewell.  You are twisting words out of their intended meaning as did the scribes and Pharisees:

Quote

"Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him." (John 8:5-6)

I encourage you to repent of your evil design.  If you desire to bring someone to a greater truth you should be able to accomplish it without directly and intentionally seeking to destroy the truth to which they already hold.  If you can not, then either you are going about it the wrong way, or perhaps you are the one in the wrong.

[runewell]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

You continue to misunderstand this phrase. I have to wonder if it's intentional, that you want to misunderstand it and attribute your misunderstanding to Christ's doctrine, thus arguing against it.

Once more:

Even after all we can do, it's the blood of Christ that saves us. We must repent, but our repentance does not save us. Christ's blood does. But it is through repentance that we accept Christ's blood.

The misunderstanding is unintentional I assure you, I heard from other LDS that interpreted it that way.

To be Saints indeed requires every wrong influence that is within them, as individuals, to be subdued, until every evil desire is eradicated, and every feeling of their hearts is brought into subjection to the will of Christ (DBY, 91).

It requires all the atonement of Christ, the mercy of the Father, the pity of angels and the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ to be with us always, and then to do the very best we possibly can, to get rid of this sin within us, so that we may escape from this world into the celestial kingdom (DBY, 60).

This second paragraph sounds very familiar.  Brigham Young claimed the atonement of Christ was necessary, AND THEN to do the very best we possibly can.  So what exactly did Jesus accomplish and what is our requirement.  

 

[Guest]

OK.  That was a wild chicken chase.  I went and got the shake from KFC.  That was not what I was expecting.  It was barely even on par with McDonald's.  I got so jazzed about having a shake that I forgot to order the chicken until I was half way back to the office.  DANG!

What a waste.

So, let's see what I missed... mmm hmm...

So,

1. runewell being dense and refusing to understand anything believing he knows our faith better than we do.  
2. Everyone else trying to explain what he doesn't understand. 
3. runewell seeking to accuse more than learn.
4. Everyone else showing remarkable restraint except for Vort.  I still love you, bro.
5. And HO!! What's this?  Person0 is calling runewell to repentance.  Yes, he's down for the count.

one... two... No, he's standing up on the ignore repentance leg.  I'm not a hypocrite.  I just expect you to answer my questions while I answer none of yours!  Yes.  He's standing.  And another attempt to stay afloat on the S.S. great and spacious building.

But since it is floating in the air anyway, I guess that's not too difficult.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, runewell said:

So what exactly did Jesus accomplish and what is our requirement.  

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-06-2030-parable-of-the-bicycle?lang=eng

It's really not that complicated.

[runewell]

10 minutes ago, person0 said:

The Spirit of God bears witness of you malintent @runewell.  You are twisting words out of their intended meaning

Just a few minutes ago I was trying to determine if the phrase "really try" meant repent, and if it did, why didn't the speaker just use the word repent.  Probably because I'm not convinced the speaker actually meant repent at all.  

I think that "repent" means turn away from sin whereas "really try" is analagous to "continuous improvement".

I am not attempting to twist words out of their intended meaning I am intending to clarify them.  I'm sorry to hear that the spirit of person0 perceives malintent.  

[person0]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-06-2030-parable-of-the-bicycle?lang=eng

It's really not that complicated.

@runewell  The hidden key in this video/parable is that the way the child earned the money in the first place was by doing chores for her parents, who then paid her.  So even though she 'earned' the money, even that part was only accomplished by their love.

Our 'works' are accomplished by the grace of God, through the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ, even after we are blessed to be able to accomplish what we can, he still takes care of the rest.  So in essence it is His grace that makes possible 100% of our salvation, but that does not remove our personal responsibility.  There is a great passage from the Book of Mormon relating to this:

Quote

"And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?"
(Mosiah 2:23-24)

 

[runewell]

3 minutes ago, person0 said:

His grace that makes possible 100% of our salvation,

but that does not remove our personal responsibility.  

 

I can't yet check out the video at work.

These two statements remain a contradiction in my mind.  If Jesus took care of our salvation 100%, how does personal responsibility add to it?  The New Testament also speaks to how fruit and good works should be evident following salvation, but not a pre-requisite for it.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, runewell said:

I think that "repent" means turn away from sin whereas "really try" is analagous to "continuous improvement".

If anything short of perfection qualifies as sin then how do you see a difference? You seem to be defining "sin" more narrowly than God has.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, runewell said:

I can't yet check out the video at work.

These two statements remain a contradiction in my mind.  If Jesus took care of our salvation 100%, how does personal responsibility add to it?  The New Testament also speaks to how fruit and good works should be evident following salvation, but not a pre-requisite for it.

 

Because Jesus did set a price for us. It just isn't the full price of salvation that He paid. We could never pay that price on our own. But we can, and must, pay the price he set us, which was to obey, repent, follow Him, etc. That is His price.

Edited April 18, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Vort]

42 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Everyone else showing remarkable restraint except for Vort.  I still love you, bro.

Dude, in all seriousness, I have shown great restraint. I have censored myself more than you know. I was actually proud (though not prideful :)) of myself in my exercise of restraint.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, runewell said:

I can't yet check out the video at work.

These two statements remain a contradiction in my mind.  If Jesus took care of our salvation 100%, how does personal responsibility add to it?  The New Testament also speaks to how fruit and good works should be evident following salvation, but not a pre-requisite for it.

Look at it from your position.  What does it take for Jesus to save you?  You still have to accept Him as your Savior, right?  Why is that?

If He truly did EVERYthing, why on earth do we even need to do that much?  He paid the price already.  If we don't accept Him, why do we get punished as well?  That's double dipping.

When I receive a gift, I can receive it many ways.

1. Money just shows up magically/anonymously in my bank account.  I don't even have to acknowledge it.  It's just there and I can take advantage of it.
2. Someone comes to me and offers me a very valuable gift.  I'll be very suspicious of such.  Is it stolen?  What conditions is he placing on it?  Why me?  After some assurances, I'll accept it.  And we'll all be happy.
3. Someone realizes that there is no way that I will be able to make enough money for the mortgage this month and says.  Hey, look, I need some work done.  Go do it, and I'll get you the money you need for the mortgage.  Gladly.  But I realize that the work he had me do was worth FAR less than the money I needed.  He was certainly being generous.  There was never any way for me to do this on my own.  And he even gave me the tools I needed to do the work he had for me anyway.  So, I couldn't even have done the job he wanted me to do without his help.

You believe in the 2nd, I'm guessing.  We believe the 3rd.  How different is it between your "work" of accepting vs. our "work" of trying and repenting?

Why did I bring up #1?  Because all your arguments against #3 are used to justify #1 much more easily than #2.  That is why we don't speak of things that way.  We want to stay as far away from #1 as possible.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

Just now, Vort said:

Dude, in all seriousness, I have shown great restraint. I have censored myself more than you know. I was actually proud (though not prideful :)) of myself in my exercise of restraint.

You're absolutely right.  I was mostly kidding anyway.

[Vort]

32 minutes ago, runewell said:

I think that "repent" means turn away from sin whereas "really try" is analagous to "continuous improvement".

What do you suppose it means to turn away from sin? It very obviously means continuous improvement.

Please explain what Jesus meant when he commanded (note the word) us to be perfect in Matthew 5:48.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, runewell said:

The New Testament also speaks to how fruit and good works should be evident following salvation, but not a pre-requisite for it.

When dealing with Mormons, you have to explain the use of this word.  What does salvation mean to you?  To us it is a state of being AFTER this life.  But to you it seems it is something attained in this life, correct?  So, explain what that means.

You say you are saved.  Present tense.  This life.  What do you mean by that?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

49 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Everyone else showing remarkable restraint except for Vort.  I still love you, bro.

Sorry. I'll step it up.

Edited April 18, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Sorry. I'll step it up.

Well... now that you mention it... 

[Vort]

23 minutes ago, runewell said:

These two statements remain a contradiction in my mind.  If Jesus took care of our salvation 100%, how does personal responsibility add to it?  The New Testament also speaks to how fruit and good works should be evident following salvation, but not a pre-requisite for it.

Jesus offers us a gift. It is the gift of salvation. There is exactly and only one (1) (3-2) way to gain this gift: Christ gives it to you.

Salvation is a gift. Period.

You with me so far?

Now, we are not required to receive this gift. We can accept it or reject it, just as we choose. We are not forced to be saved. We choose whether to accept salvation.

Still with me?

So, how does one accept Christ's salvation? Is it by saying, "Yea, Lord, I believe! Save me, Jesus!"

Nope. That alone does nothing. As the Lord very clearly taught in Matthew 7:21-23:

Quote

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Merely invoking the name of Jesus as a magical talisman against eternal death doesn't do a thing.

Still with me? I hope so.

So what's the answer? If merely saying "Lord, Lord" doesn't gain us salvation, what does? How do we accept Christ's gift? Again, the Lord himself answered this very clearly in John 14:15:

Quote

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So there is your answer, runewell. Keep the Lord's commandments, and you will be saved. Don't keep the Lord's commandments, and you will not be saved.

Period.

Hope that's clear now.

 

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

But I'm afraid most of the people, myself included, completely missed the point.  I kept hearing the phrase "make it across the line."  But it was stated in such a way that there is this particular measure on the "good/evil" measuring bar.  And we had to be "at least this tall take this ride."  I voiced my disagreement with that sentiment.  My main objection was that it may actually be a hindrance for many.

If there is this "line" to cross, then we get the impression that if we're on that side of it, we can coast.  That is not what the gospel teaches.  That's not what Elder Cornish's talk was about.  It is about ETERNAL progression.  We're here to perfect ourselves.  But we will never be perfect in this life.  That is why Christ had to do things for us.  But it doesn't mean we can coast because we just "leave it all to the Lord."

In ! Cor 9:24-29 Paul speaks of running in a race, but he doesn't mention a "line." He simply speaks to running to "obtain." He also speaks to how one should run--i.e. with temperance and confidence.

However, in 2 Tim 4:7, he does speak of finishing his course (a line of sorts), though this is a "line" (death) that we all will cross. The importance here is not in crossing the line, but in the manner in which the line is crossed ("I have kept the faith") that determines the prize or crown.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[zil]

1 hour ago, runewell said:

Just a few minutes ago I was trying to determine if the phrase "really try" meant repent, and if it did, why didn't the speaker just use the word repent.  Probably because I'm not convinced the speaker actually meant repent at all.  

I have a brilliant idea!  Let's get rid of all synonyms.  We'll knock our vocabulary down to 1000 words, agree on a fixed list of acceptable, precisely defined phrases, and strap rat cages on the faces of everyone who tries to use any non-approved words!

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

non-approved

That's not even a word! Not to mention an "approved" word!

Get the rats!

[runewell]

41 minutes ago, Vort said:

Please explain what Jesus meant when he commanded (note the word) us to be perfect in Matthew 5:48.

Just that.  We need to be perfect.  However, we are sinful and can never come anywhere close to meeting that requirement.

[runewell]

35 minutes ago, Vort said:

Keep the Lord's commandments, and you will be saved. Don't keep the Lord's commandments, and you will not be saved.

 

All of us have failed to keep the Lord's commandments, therefore we will not be saved?

[Anddenex]

14 minutes ago, zil said:

I have a brilliant idea!  Let's get rid of all synonyms.  We'll knock our vocabulary down to 1000 words, agree on a fixed list of acceptable, precisely defined phrases, and strap rat cages on the faces of everyone who tries to use any non-approved words!

And to be honest, I am not sure why it is so hard to see what "really try" means. We need to really be trying to come unto to Christ and be perfected in him. The only way this is possible is through repentance. I am unsure why an individual deliberately is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

There are plenty of analogies a person can think of regarding the concept of "really trying." The soccer coach (any sport coach for that matter) specifies, if you "try really hard, I mean really try, you will become a better soccer player." The coach recognizes two boys. The first, at practice, is running all the drills, kicking, dribbling, juggling, and at his best ability. The second, is dancing, roles on the ground, tip toes to the ball, and then kicks the ball once. Who is going to get better and who is really trying?

Not a hard principle of thought, at least to a humbled mind.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Anddenex

[estradling75]

I came across an analogy of the atonement I thought worked pretty well.

 

A child was getting piano lessons.  The child had no way to pay for the lessons.  The parent paid for the lesson that the child could in no way do, but then made their own terms for the child.  Namely that the child had to practice every day what was being taught.

Christ is the parent.  We are the child, there is no way we can pay the price for our sins, but we can give Christ what he asks for. And that is for use to practice what he teaches us everyday.

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

I came across an analogy of the atonement I thought worked pretty well.

 

A child was getting piano lessons.  The child had no way to pay for the lessons.  The parent paid for the lesson that the child could in no way do, but then made their own terms for the child.  Namely that the child had to practice every day what was being taught.

Christ is the parent.  We are the child, there is no way we can pay the price for our sins, but we can give Christ what he asks for. And that is for use to practice what he teaches us everyday.

And we see the need of covenant relationships! -- God sets the terms, we obey to our best ability.