Am I Good Enough? Will I Make It?

[Traveler]

22 minutes ago, runewell said:

Romans 6:1-2

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 

One great mistake I believe many self called "Christians" make is the belief that for those (them) that hear the teachings of Christ that think themselves more entitled to the forgiveness and mercy of G-d concerning their sins with knowledge – knowing the better; while those that know little or nothing of such things are damned to Hell in their ignorance.

 

The Traveler

[runewell]

19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Look at it from your position.  What does it take for Jesus to save you?  You still have to accept Him as your Savior, right?  Why is that?

If He truly did EVERYthing, why on earth do we even need to do that much?  He paid the price already.  If we don't accept Him, why do we get punished as well?  That's double dipping.

I suppose it is God because wants us to choose to love Him.  If everyone were automatically accepted, nobody would have to choose God.

Also, without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).  Time and time again God requires His people to have faith in Him.

 

 

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, runewell said:

I suppose it is God because wants us to choose to love Him.  If everyone were automatically accepted, nobody would have to choose God.

Also, without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).  Time and time again God requires His people to have faith in Him.

Too bad that doesn't even answer the question.  But I thank you for the effort.

[runewell]

18 hours ago, Traveler said:

Those that feel Celestial laws and being a saint is restrictive to things they enjoy most

According to Brigham Young, 

To be Saints indeed requires every wrong influence that is within them, as individuals, to be subdued, until every evil desire is eradicated, and every feeling of their hearts is brought into subjection to the will of Christ (DBY, 91).

I suppose you meant aspiring to saintliness, not being a saint.  None of us is perfect to fulfill Brigham Young's definition of a saint.

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Too bad that doesn't even answer the question.  But I thank you for the effort.

runewell enjoys asking questions. He's not much for staying around and actually listening to answers, though. And he absolutely abhors answering your questions. I have asked him a bunch, and he has studiously ignored pretty much every one. I am frankly surprised he's still on the site.

[runewell]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Too bad that doesn't even answer the question.  But I thank you for the effort.

Actually, I did answer a question, maybe not all of them and not to your liking.

Edited April 19, 2017 by runewell

[runewell]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

runewell enjoys asking questions. He's not much for staying around and actually listening to answers, though. And he absolutely abhors answering your questions. I have asked him a bunch, and he has studiously ignored pretty much every one. I am frankly surprised he's still on the site.

What can I say, your "rid the unwelcome via arrogance" campaign hasn't had the effect you'd hoped.  

[Just_A_Guy]

50 minutes ago, runewell said:

Romans 6:1-2

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 

I'm aware of Paul's statement here; but I'm also aware that it is logically inconsistent with what Paul is interpreted as having said elsewhere.  In the face of such an inconsistency one may either persist in cognitive dissonance because the Bible purportedly demands it; or one may (as Mormons have done) re-evaluate one's interpretation of Paul.

At any rate, one clearly can't arrogate to oneself the right to preach good works, while damning Mormonism for doing the same.

[runewell]

1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I'm aware of Paul's statement here; but I'm also aware that it is logically inconsistent with what Paul is interpreted as having said elsewhere.

Such as?

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, runewell said:

What can I say, your "rid the unwelcome via arrogance" campaign hasn't had the effect you'd hoped.  

LOL. It wasn't my arrogance that I was expecting would rid the site of you.

[Just_A_Guy]

15 minutes ago, runewell said:

Such as?

Oh, did I misinterpret you?  Are you saying you don't interpret Paul as advocating a saved-by-grace-alone soteriology?  Are you saying that it is not a heresy to suggest that good works have a role in salvation? 

I'm so glad we agree.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, runewell said:

Actually, I did answer a question, maybe not all of them and not to your liking.

That is the usual cop-out for one who avoids answering.  But let me try to give you the benefit of the doubt and explain even further.

Your position (as I understand it -- feel free to correct any of the following statement) is:

1. You don't need to do anything to gain salvation.
2. Christ has done it all for you.  He paid the price.
3. There is nothing within man to be able to gain salvation.
4. No work we do has anything to do with salvation.
5. To claim that we do need to do any work does ... something... bad???  So, when Mormons talk about ordinances or any kind of work, we're diminishing the power of the Atonement.

At the same time, you say:

1. We need to accept Christ as our Savior to gain salvation.  
2. We need to love God.  
3. We need to come to Christ.  
4. We need to show our gratitude for His Great Work -- the Atonement.

Why do you not see this second list as "works"?  How is this any less a list of "works" than saying we need to repent? <=== First question

If you truly believe there is NOTHING that man can do to gain salvation, then that second list is also null and void.  Thus the logical conclusion is that you shouldn't even need to be aware of Christ at all to gain salvation.  He paid the price already.

If he paid the price already, then anyone going to hell is double dipping.

Why would God double dip on the suffering?  Is that just?  To require double the suffering? <=== Second question

EDIT: PLEASE NOTE THAT I'VE COPIED THIS QUESTION TO THE CHRISTIAN SUBFORUM AS PAM HAS SUGGESTED.  LET'S CONTINUE THIS THERE.

TO ENFORCE THIS, I'D SUGGEST MODERATORS DELETE ANY FUTURE POSTS IN THIS THREAD REGARDING THIS DEBATE AS OPPOSED TO SUBJECT OF THE OP.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Guest

[runewell]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

At the same time, you say:

1. We need to accept Christ as our Savior to gain salvation.  
2. We need to love God.  
3. We need to come to Christ.  
4. We need to show our gratitude for His Great Work -- the Atonement.

Why do you not see this second list as "works"?  How is this any less a list of "works" than saying we need to repent? <=== First question

If you truly believe there is NOTHING that man can do to gain salvation, then that second list is also null and void.  Thus the logical conclusion is that you shouldn't even need to be aware of Christ at all to gain salvation.  He paid the price already.

If he paid the price already, then anyone going to hell is double dipping.

Why would God double dip on the suffering?  Is that just?  To require double the suffering? <=== Second question

 

Regarding the first question, salvation is a gift that cannot be earned.  You have repent of your sin and accept this gift.  There is nothing you can do to earn or deserve it.  Just like getting a gift at Christmas, you unwrap the gift and enjoy it.  Nobody puts conditions on it.  Nobody asks you to pay your fair share.  Unwrapping the gift isn't "work".

You can die one minute later with a life devoid of works and live with Him in Heaven.

Acts of love and gratitude towards God are things we choose to do after salvation.  But nothing we can do will earn salvation because  All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)

I must confess I still don't understand the double-dipping concept in the second question.  :shrug:

[person0]

@runewell I know others have asked you many questions, but I would like to have your interpretation on the following verses as it pertains to this discussion:

Quote

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(James 2:14,17)

Quote

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  (Matt. 7:21)

Quote

If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?  (Proverbs 24:12)

Quote

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(Rev. 20:12-13)

Emphasis Added.

Many of these verses have been shared before.  We welcome your sincere interpretation, and if you really do have an answer, even if we disagree it will help us better understand how others might come to an alternative interpretation of the scriptures, and we can all be enlightened on the subject together.  The simplest way I can think to put the LDS perspective is to say that we are saved only by grace, but works are still required.  It appears you may define works differently, so please provide your definition of works so we can better understand.

3 minutes ago, runewell said:

Regarding the first question, salvation is a gift that cannot be earned.  You have repent of your sin and accept this gift.  There is nothing you can do to earn or deserve it.  Just like getting a gift at Christmas, you unwrap the gift and enjoy it.  Nobody puts conditions on it.  Nobody asks you to pay your fair share.  

The things in bold are works, the fact that you define works differently seems to be more the problem than anything.

5 minutes ago, runewell said:

Unwrapping the gift isn't "work".

This is false, it is work to unwrap a gift, the same as it is work to wrap it.

5 minutes ago, runewell said:

You can die one minute later with a life devoid of works and live with Him in Heaven.

You already did the work of repenting and following the commandments you are able, this statement by you is correct, but once again, your definition of works is different.

6 minutes ago, runewell said:

But nothing we can do will earn salvation

We agree with you, but works are still required, they don't earn us our salvation, but they are still required of us.

[runewell]

Lots of people will do works (yet not know God) and come up disappointed on the day of judgment.  God is first and foremost interested in establishing a relationship.  Just because people will be judged by their works in Bible verses doesn't guarantee that the outcome will be a good one.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Edited April 19, 2017 by runewell

[Guest]

Moderators, please delete these past few posts that should belong in the new thread which I've started in the "Christian Beliefs" subforum per @pam's directive.

Thank you,

[Anddenex]

38 minutes ago, runewell said:

You have repent of your sin and accept this gift... Nobody puts conditions on it. 

Specifying a "condition" while saying stating no "condition" is placed upon it is a tad ironic, don't you think?

Condition: Repent (work, something that is required of you) and accept

BUT no one puts a condition on it?

If there truly is no condition, then an individual does not have to "accept" or "repent" -- it is simply given. But then again, this is just rehashing what has already been shared and ignored.

[Guest]

@Anddenex, please move this to the other thread.

Also, @runewell @person0

Edited April 19, 2017 by Guest

[runewell]

OK, let's suppose we get past this initial stage.  We repent of our sins and accept Christ's forgiveness.  Christ did all the work, we are essentially flipping on a switch, allowing it to happen.

Now what is required of us beyond that step? 

[Guest]

@Eowyn, @Just_A_Guy, @pam

Please delete or move these comments to the other thread I created in the appropriate subforum.

[JohnsonJones]

17 hours ago, runewell said:

Regarding the first question, salvation is a gift that cannot be earned.  You have repent of your sin and accept this gift.  There is nothing you can do to earn or deserve it.  Just like getting a gift at Christmas, you unwrap the gift and enjoy it.  Nobody puts conditions on it.  Nobody asks you to pay your fair share.  Unwrapping the gift isn't "work".

You can die one minute later with a life devoid of works and live with Him in Heaven.

Acts of love and gratitude towards God are things we choose to do after salvation.  But nothing we can do will earn salvation because  All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)

This is LDS doctrine.  NOTHING we do or can say or any works or actions will save us. 

This is one of the basic ideas of LDS Doctrine.

 I find it hard to believe that any on these forums that are LDS are arguing against this.  Instead quickly agree and go on in regards to LDS doctrine itself and further in regards to it.

In this, I absolutely agree with runewell.  Salvation IS a gift that CANNOT BE EARNED.  You actually do NOT have to repent (though some would say this is part of accepting it), all you need to do is accept the salvation that is freely offered you by the Lord.  There is NOTHING you can do to EARN or DESERVE IT.  Runewell's statement is 100% in accordance with what we believe in the LDS church.

However...

There is another aspect that seems to go counter to this.  Most religions when they discuss works are talking about required ordinances. This is what they hold against the Catholic Church when they talk about works vs. grace.  In this is the discussion that works are required and grace cannot be sufficient.  This means that one must needs be Baptized to be saved.  These things are such ordinances as Baptism, Confirmation, Mass (or the Sacrament in the LDS church), and other such ordinances.

The LDS church ALSO believes that such ordinances are essential to salvation.  For some, these can apparently contradict each other, so how is it that the LDS can have BOTH as doctrine?

There is a story in Gospel Principles (which in turn was taken from a General Conference Talk) that I think well illustrates this matter.  Before discussing it, I would like to point a few other items.

The Lord has said that we are NOT TO JUDGE.  That means we do NOT know who is or is not going to receive salvation or going to heaven.  IT is the LORD who is the ONLY judge in this regard.  He is our judge, and the one who gets to decide.  He can do what EVER he desires and choose HOWEVER he wants.  I think the story illustrates WHY (and I am going to post the story).

Overall, I do NOT feel it is how much we give to the poor (though we should give to the poor), how many prayers we say, how many meetings we attend that determine if we are saved or not.  It is not how many ordinances, or how many times we do our hometeaching, or if we are a Bishop, Stake President, or other position.  I feel that the Lord can see the true intentions of our hearts, the true feelings that we intend, and the true emotions and thoughts behind our actions.  It is, indeed not just our actions, but as inferred by Benjamin in Mosiah...it is also our thoughts.

Anyways...onto that story

Quote

There once was a man who wanted something very much. It seemed more important than anything else in his life. In order for him to have his desire, he incurred a great debt.

“He had been warned about going into that much debt, and particularly about his creditor. But it seemed so important for him to do what he wanted to do and to have what he wanted right now. He was sure he could pay for it later.

“So he signed a contract. He would pay it off some time along the way. He didn’t worry too much about it, for the due date seemed such a long time away. He had what he wanted now, and that was what seemed important.

“The creditor was always somewhere in the back of his mind, and he made token payments now and again, thinking somehow that the day of reckoning really would never come.

“But as it always does, the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.

“Only then did he realize that his creditor not only had the power to repossess all that he owned, but the power to cast him into prison as well.

“‘I cannot pay you, for I have not the power to do so,’ he confessed.

“‘Then,’ said the creditor, ‘we will exercise the contract, take your possessions, and you shall go to prison. You agreed to that. It was your choice. You signed the contract, and now it must be enforced.’

“‘Can you not extend the time or forgive the debt?’ the debtor begged. ‘Arrange some way for me to keep what I have and not go to prison. Surely you believe in mercy? Will you not show mercy?’

“The creditor replied, ‘Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice?’

“‘I believed in justice when I signed the contract,’ the debtor said. ‘It was on my side then, for I thought it would protect me. I did not need mercy then, nor think I should need it ever. Justice, I thought, would serve both of us equally as well.’

“‘It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,’ the creditor replied. ‘That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice.’

“There they were: One meting out justice, the other pleading for mercy. Neither could prevail except at the expense of the other.

“‘If you do not forgive the debt there will be no mercy,’ the debtor pleaded.

“‘If I do, there will be no justice,’ was the reply.

“Both laws, it seemed, could not be served. They are two eternal ideals that appear to contradict one another. Is there no way for justice to be fully served, and mercy also?

“There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended—but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time.

“The debtor had a friend. He came to help. He knew the debtor well. He knew him to be shortsighted. He thought him foolish to have gotten himself into such a predicament. Nevertheless, he wanted to help because he loved him. He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer.

“‘I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.’

“As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, ‘You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.’

“And so the creditor agreed.

“The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’

“‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’

“‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’

“And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken.

“The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was fully satisfied” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, 79–80; or Ensign, May 1977, 54–55).

Gospel Principles chapter 12 the Atonement

It is HIS Grace and mercy that saves us.  HE is the one that sets the terms.  IF he so decides that nothing more is needed (for example, little children are sinless and are saved without any ordinances or Baptism needed), than HE is the JUDGE.  He sets the terms.  We show our faith BY our works, and he can see with what intent we do them.  We need to try to fulfill our part of the bargain, to fulfill the demands of justice, and it is to fulfill these requirements that are laid down (but remember, HE, not WE, is the final Judge on what he actually will require of us, for some less, for some perhaps more).

Wonderful story that I think demonstrates the LDS thoughts on how justice and mercy are both fulfilled.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by JohnsonJones
Making the quotes work better and adding link

[Guest]

@JohnsonJones,

Please move this to the other thread.

[JohnsonJones]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

@JohnsonJones,

Please move this to the other thread.

I would consider Boyd K. Packer's statements and comments as relevant to LDS discussion.

Pam Stated

Quote

*Putting on admin hat*   

May I just put out a friendly reminder that this particular section of the forums is an LDS Gospel Forum and should always reflect LDS doctrine/teachings/beliefs in the responses.  This is NOT a forum for debate between LDS doctrine and non LDS doctrine.  If you aren't LDS and want to pursue a topic, start a thread in the Christian Beliefs section.

Thanks.

I AM LDS, and what I wrote WAS reflective of my understanding of LDS doctrine. 

I feel this IS the appropriate forum, and Boyd K. Packer's statements probably belong FAR more in this forum than the general Christian forum.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I would consider Boyd K. Packer's statements and comments as relevant to LDS discussion.

Pam Stated

I AM LDS, and what I wrote WAS reflective of my understanding of LDS doctrine. 

I feel this IS the appropriate forum, and Boyd K. Packer's statements probably belong FAR more in this forum than the general Christian forum.

You did not write it in response to the OP.  You wrote it in response to Runewell and his debate.

[runewell]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

This is LDS doctrine.  NOTHING we do or can say or any works or actions will save us. 

In this, I absolutely agree with runewell.  Salvation IS a gift that CANNOT BE EARNED.  You actually do NOT have to repent (though some would say this is part of accepting it), all you need to do is accept the salvation that is freely offered you by the Lord.  

However...

Thanks JohnsonJones for your input.  I'll comment here, although others wish us to use a runewell thread created in the Christian beliefs section. 

So there are some fundamental differences still between your account and mine, though I dearly appreciate your attempt to clear things up.

I would disagree with the statement that you do not have to repent.  

From I John 1 in the New Testament:

Quote

⁸ If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. ⁹ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 

I get the impression that LDS prefer to view the eyes through the lens of eternal progression through works.  You don't have to repent of anything, if you have to try really hard (from an earlier section of this thread).  Indeed in your story the debtor is released from his prison but is now in debt to someone else.  He is still expected to pay back his debt.

Contrast this with a Biblical viewpoint: Repentance of sins is necessary.  But once you are forgiven, you do not have to pay back the debt.  Which is good, because it is a debt that nobody can pay.  We are still indebted to God in a sense, Him having purchased our forgiveness with His death.  

From Matthew 18: (later in the story the guy ends up back in jail, but only because he wouldn't forgive someone else just as he had been forgiven.  But note that the debt was CANCELED:

Quote

 

²³ “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. ²⁴ As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold^[b] was brought to him. ²⁵ Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

²⁶ “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ ²⁷ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.