Am I Good Enough? Will I Make It?

[JohnsonJones]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

You did not write it in response to the OP.  You wrote it in response to Runewell and his debate.

I may have read it too hastily, but from what I read, Runewell was right in their statements.  I saw people flagrantly picking on Runewell and tearing down LDS doctrine, but Runewell's actual statements were relevant to the OP's statements and questions.  I am of the opinion that OTHER people were in the act of actually trying to tear down what is actually pretty clear LDS doctrine on the matter (in my understanding) and felt many of the comments tossed at Runewell were probably misplaced and caused undue tension in a thread where we should be agreeing that there is NOTHING we can do that merits us salvation under justice.  We do not merit it.  It is a gift that is given freely to us if we choose to accept it.

Of course, our actions will show that faith (as per James) and our works reflect our belief.  The story by Boyd K. Packer demonstrates this particularly well.  This may seem counter to the "works" that we are taught to do in the New Testament, but this does not negate the idea that the ONLY one to judge is the Lord when determining our salvation.  He is the one that sets the terms and that can be anything from simply being childlike to be covered under the atonement with nothing else required, to looking in our hearts to see with what intent we do.

In my OPINION

In truth, no works (or ordinances), actions on our part, or anything else does one lick to save us unless we do it with the right intent.  He can see if we have good in our hearts and are truly his followers, and it is HIS choice and decision on whether we receive salvation or not.  I tend to lean that he is far more forgiving than many give him credit for (and feel that as he says, if we ask, we shall receive, especially in regards to repentance in general, though some sins may require a tad more faith than others as shown in action and deed) but in all honesty, the only one whose judgment really counts now, is the Lords.

I think the atonement IS a particularly vital and important part of LDS discussion.  I think Pam would agree (I am not Pam, so not positive, hence why I think) and probably feel she was discussing the unnecessary antagonism that arose in the thread when instead we should be discussing the merits of the atonement and the love of the Lord rather than tearing down someone for perceived misunderstandings of belief or writings, or perceived slants against each other.

[runewell]

Thanks JohnsonJones.  Even though my general position is not aligned with LDS doctrine, I want to understand the differences.  Other posters seemed very hostile to a comparison between LDS doctrine and Christianity for whatever reason.    But I think My questions were directly related to the issue of Am I Good Enough?  Will I Make It?

And, if someone has titled the thread Am I Good Enough? that tells me that works and worthiness definitely play into this.  It sounds to me like there is a little agreement about the impact of Christ, but In Christianity that is pretty much 100% of the story while with the LDS it sounds like that is only the beginning.

My answer to those questions:

Am I Good Enough. NO.  NOT EVEN CLOSE.  WILL NEVER BE ANYWHERE CLOSE.  DESERVE PUNISHMENT IN HELL FOR MY SINS.

Will I Make It? YES (not to hell ) 

[JohnsonJones]

1 minute ago, runewell said:

Thanks JohnsonJones for your input.  I'll comment here, although others wish us to use a runewell thread created in the Christian beliefs section. 

So there are some fundamental differences still between your account and mine, though I dearly appreciate your attempt to clear things up.

I would disagree with the statement that you do not have to repent.  

From I John 1 in the New Testament:

I get the impression that LDS prefer to view the eyes through the lens of eternal progression through works.  You don't have to repent of anything, if you have to try really hard (from an earlier section of this thread).  Indeed in your story the debtor is released from his prison but is now in debt to someone else.  He is still expected to pay back his debt.

Contrast this with a Biblical viewpoint: Repentance of sins is necessary.  But once you are forgiven, you do not have to pay back the debt.  Which is good, because it is a debt that nobody can pay.  We are still indebted to God in a sense, Him having purchased our forgiveness with His death.  

From Matthew 18: (later in the story the guy ends up back in jail, but only because he wouldn't forgive someone else just as he had been forgiven.  But note that the debt was CANCELED:

 

I think you misunderstand the story to a little degree.

In the LDS beliefs, there are those that do NOTHING (not even repent) who attain salvation.  Little children and those who are like little children (normally these are disabled, even to adulthood) who are saved simply by the atonement of the Lord.  There is NOTHING expected of them.

The idea, is that it is the LORD that now owns this debt.  He is the one that determines the standards of repayment.  This can be nothing for some individuals.  In the LDS belief, a little child does not even have to BELIEVE in the LORD (which is even far less than many other religions which would be scandalized by this thought) to be saved.

The Lord normally requires us to at least accept this gift, as one would put it.  However, how does one know if one truly accepts or believes this?  It is then, as per James in the Epistle of James, where works are not what saves us, but are indicative of our faith for that salvation.  Do we have faith that the Lord's atonement really does apply to us and are we truly willing to accept his as our Savior (as per James in the New Testament).

The most famous of these is James 2.  However, the item that the Mormons and Baptist take issue with is the interpretation that it is the WORKS that save us, rather than faith.  However, the way I can understand it is that it is by works that our faith is demonstrated.  If we have faith, by default works will follow (and not necessarily ordinances, but as James lists, those items which show we are true followers of the Lord).

However, I utilize the story of the individual on the Cross to show that it is the LORD who makes the judgement call.  He can decide whoever and whatever he wants in regards to who gets Salvation.  We need to accept him (and hence his teachings and his example) and his sacrifice for us. 

Who would you say truly accepts the Lord, the one who says they are saved, but then goes and murders their family, robs a bank, and then proceeds to support prostitution and all manner of evil...or the one that says they accept the Lord, goes to church, aids the poor, and does all manner of good to others?

This explanation, though not from an LDS site, is a good explanation of James 2

Quote

This is the heart of the book of James. James does not imagine that work is at odds with faith. There can be no “justification by works” be­cause there can be no good works unless there is already faith (trust) in God. James doesn’t mean that faith can exist without works yet be insuf­ficient for salvation. He means that any “faith” that doesn’t lead to works is dead; in other words, it is no faith at all. “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead” (James 2:26). James doesn’t command Christians to work for the benefit of others in need instead of placing faith in Christ, or even in addition to placing faith in Christ. He expects that Christians will work for the benefit of others in need as a result of placing faith in Christ.[6]

For a discussion of how this understanding of faith squares with that of Paul, see Douglas Moo, The Letter of James (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2000), 37-43, 118-44.

The insight that Christian faith always leads to practical action is in itself a lesson for the workplace. We cannot divide the world into spiritual and practical, for the spiritual is the practical. “You see that [Abraham’s] faith was active along with his works,” James says (James 2:22). Therefore we can never say, “I believe in Jesus and I go to church, but I keep my personal faith out of my work.” That kind of faith is dead. James’s words “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24) challenge us to work out our commitment to Christ in our daily activities.

The rest of the letter gives practical applications of the two under­lying principles of trust in God and working to benefit others in need. Given our assessment of James 2:14–26, we will proceed with the per­spective that these applications are outworkings of faith in Christ, valid in James’s day and instructive in ours.

and a link to the original site and full article  James and Faith

As you can see, works basically show that we DO have faith, and that is the faith in the Lord that is necessary, because without that faith that he did atone for our sins, there is no faith that we can be saved from them.

[Guest]

@JohnsonJones,

I think you misunderstood the purpose of the OP and the purpose of why Pam asked to move the discussion to the other subforum.

Instead of debating me on this, you can JUST AS EASILY move your comments there.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Guest

[JohnsonJones]

5 minutes ago, runewell said:

Thanks JohnsonJones.  Even though my general position is not aligned with LDS doctrine, I want to understand the differences.  Other posters seemed very hostile to a comparison between LDS doctrine and Christianity for whatever reason.    But I think My questions were directly related to the issue of Am I Good Enough?  Will I Make It?

And, if someone has titled the thread Am I Good Enough? that tells me that works and worthiness definitely play into this.  It sounds to me like there is a little agreement about the impact of Christ, but In Christianity that is pretty much 100% of the story while with the LDS it sounds like that is only the beginning.

My answer to those questions:

Am I Good Enough. NO.  NOT EVEN CLOSE.  WILL NEVER BE ANYWHERE CLOSE.  DESERVE PUNISHMENT IN HELL FOR MY SINS.

Will I Make It? YES (not to hell ) 

I agree.  WE, in and of ourselves are definitely NOT good enough.  Even with one sin we are absolutely not even close.  The story of Job is a good example of this. 

I also agree, we can make it with faith in our Lord.

I think in many ways, we are MORE closely aligned in our thoughts to the protestant ideas of grace and faith than many realize.  To often people want to emphasize works and what we do, rather than how totally and completely reliant we are on the atonement of the Lord.  It is the atonement that is the central aspect of our faith, and why we can even be saved.

Without the Lord's grace and salvation, we would all be condemned to hell.

[JohnsonJones]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

@JohnsonJones,

I think you misunderstood the purpose of the OP and the purpose of why Pam asked to move the discussion to the other subforum.

Meaning you of course.      (as for Pam, I may have misunderstood, but seeing how much flak was being tossed at someone unnecessarily, it seemed to me more centered around that then the actual topic that was being discussed).

I understand where you are coming from, but I also see at the beginning of his talk, right at the front where they summarize what he is writing, something that you mentioned you had difficulty agreeing with and felt he said something different.  That statement right there at the talk actually agrees more with what Runewell stated...and that statement from his talk is this

Quote

If you will really try and will not rationalize or rebel—repenting often and pleading for grace—you positively are going to be “good enough

Though he admittedly has this added part at the end, which basically, if one understands the idea of accepting the Lord and having one's heart turned towards the Lord, would mean we would not rebel if we were truly saved in the first place (as per other doctrines outside the LDS church), it is basically still saying something very similar when he states...

Quote

I witness to you that if you will really try and will not rationalize or rebel—repenting often and pleading for the grace, or help, of Christ—you positively are going to be “good enough,” that is, acceptable before the Lord; you are going to make it to the celestial kingdom, being perfect in Christ; and you are going to receive the blessings and glory and joy that God desires for each of His precious children—including specifically you and me. I testify that God lives and wants us to come home. I testify that Jesus lives. In the holy name of Jesus Christ, amen.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Guest]

@JohnsonJones,

Instead of debating me on this, you can JUST AS EASILY move your comments there.

[JohnsonJones]

But you asked the question HERE...and I am addressing YOUR question instead of trying to differentiate what makes MORMONS DIFFERENT.  In fact, much of what I see is what makes us very similar to other faiths and that is inside the talk you addressed as well as the items involved.  In fact, the great irony is that Runewell basically restated the general idea you stated yourself in your OP in the first paragraph (but differentiated in the second).

Even more ironic, I feel the talk is actually focused on something different entirely, which I actually haven't gotten to talk about (but that really wouldn't be on topic in regards to the thread).  (That would be more on that I he dealt more with other items with a focus on grace rather than what WE can do...which obviously isn't coasting, but it isn't relying on what we do or our works either, but more putting the atonement at work in our lives in application each day, and stop trying to make excuses).

 

PS:  You keep commenting to a thread in another forum.  I am now guessing you put a sub thread in the Christianity forum and that's the one you are referring to?  I sort of talked about it prior, but that is a GUESS on my part.

Edited April 20, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[runewell]

7 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

However, I utilize the story of the individual on the Cross to show that it is the LORD who makes the judgement call.  He can decide whoever and whatever he wants in regards to who gets Salvation.  We need to accept him (and hence his teachings and his example) and his sacrifice for us. 

Who would you say truly accepts the Lord, the one who says they are saved, but then goes and murders their family, robs a bank, and then proceeds to support prostitution and all manner of evil...or the one that says they accept the Lord, goes to church, aids the poor, and does all manner of good to others?

As you can see, works basically show that we DO have faith, and that is the faith in the Lord that is necessary, because without that faith that he did atone for our sins, there is no faith that we can be saved from them.

 

I actually do not subscribe to a "once saved always saved" philosophy.  Some Christians do, but certainly not all of them.  I would certainly have my doubts about the aforementioned bank robber, but again it's hardly my decision.  Salvation is a prerequisite.  Out of that experience which changes a person from being spiritually dead to alive, they will want to do good works.  And the are rewards for good works, but no measure of "good enough".  I think one's relationship with God [at life's end] is the best barometer.  The criminal alongside Jesus on the cross more or less repented in his dying hour, and that was enough (Luke 23:32-43).  

However there are enough warnings in the Bible that I think should make people take this issue seriously.  I think the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) may be relevant.  Ten virgins waited a long time for their bridegroom (Jesus).  When he finally came only half of them were ready.  The other five weren't.  When they knock and try to get in, the response is  Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.

Quote

 If we have faith, by default works will follow (and not necessarily ordinances, but as James lists, those items which show we are true followers of the Lord).

I absolutely agree with this. 

So how does a sense of "Am I Good Enough? Will I Make It?" linger?  (I realize JohnsonJones that those weren't your words)

[JohnsonJones]

14 minutes ago, runewell said:

 

I actually do not subscribe to a "once saved always saved" philosophy.  Some Christians do, but certainly not all of them.  I would certainly have my doubts about the aforementioned bank robber, but again it's hardly my decision.  Salvation is a prerequisite.  Out of that experience which changes a person from being spiritually dead to alive, they will want to do good works.  And the are rewards for good works, but no measure of "good enough".  I think one's relationship with God [at life's end] is the best barometer.  The criminal alongside Jesus on the cross more or less repented in his dying hour, and that was enough (Luke 23:32-43).  

However there are enough warnings in the Bible that I think should make people take this issue seriously.  I think the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) may be relevant.  Ten virgins waited a long time for their bridegroom (Jesus).  When he finally came only half of them were ready.  The other five weren't.  When they knock and try to get in, the response is  Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.

I absolutely agree with this. 

So how does a sense of "Am I Good Enough? Will I Make It?" linger?  (I realize JohnsonJones that those weren't your words)

I think many LDS have this question, and often ask this of themselves.  It is probably a common enough question of many Christians.  Am I good enough, am I going to heaven?

Now, believe it or not, the LDS DO believe that one CAN have a confirmation that they ARE going to basically be assured of going to heaven.  It happens rarely (or not, maybe those who have it occur simply do not tell everyone else).  They can have a personal visit by the Lord and he can tell them...you will go to heaven.  The only way out of it at that point is to commit a sin against the Holy Ghost, which is more than just sinning, it's basically KNOWING the Lord atoned for our sins, than actively rejecting it and shedding innocent blood in order to reject it completely and fight against the Lord doing all one can to destroy his atonement and sacrifice (ala, Judas Iscariot).

However, for the most part, I think there are MANY LDS members that wonder if they are good enough.  This, in some ways, is an answer to it.

His talk seems to be a reassurance that yes, you are good enough.  If you repent (apply the atonement to our lives by admitting our sins and that he forgives us of them and trying not to do them again), and do not rebel against the Lord, then yes, you are good enough.  We stress too much at times over this question rather than focusing on what we could be doing instead.

On an individual level, to be honest, the LDS also have another scripture which points out something I think is far different (and may be different than what you believe yourself).  This is my opinion, rather than LDS doctrine

Quote

But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not.

In this, I think it is FAR more important what we are thinking and how we feel in our hearts.  I think the Lord takes this into account and can see this.  No matter what we do, what matters most is our intentions (and yes, I know the phrase, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...but I think it is actually the INTENT that may actually matter, and normally that is reflected in our words and our deeds).

That's a personal opinion though, rather than any LDS doctrine.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, runewell said:

So how does a sense of "Am I Good Enough? Will I Make It?" linger?  (I realize JohnsonJones that those weren't your words)

 

When one measures anything between an individual’s birth and death – nothing is “Good Enough”.  Not even and especially – a “Belief” or “Faith” in G-d – Jesus Christ or anything else.  With such measurement, there is no “Salvation” – no one is “Saved”.

But there is another great paradox – there is no sin possible between a person’s birth and death that cannot be washed clean and forgiven. 

Obviously, anyone considering “Good Enough” and concluding anything while a mortal (between birth and death) is flawed and a lie.  The idea or doctrine that any man is “Good Enough” to be forgiven while someone else is not quite “Good Enough” is logically flawed, empirically inconsistent and a spiritual denial of a “Good” true and living G-d.

Obviously, we have some contribution that allows or determines salvation.   I am certain that pride is perhaps the greatest deterrent in qualifying for salvation and forgiveness.   And what is this pride that would deter?  I do not pretend to have the answer – but one thing I am certain – anyone that thinks they qualify and need not worry but others are in grave danger – are caught in the chains of their own pride.

But the term “Gospel” means “good news”.  The good news is that anyone that wants freedom from sin will be made free – but not in this life.  In this life, we will suffer the wages and consequences of sin – which is death.  Though we all will die – we all will live again through Christ.  Fulfilling the covenant of Eden – before any mortal was born – we were promised the knowledge of good and evil.  The knowledge of evil is the experience of death – the knowledge of good is the experience of forgiveness and the resurrection.   Those that retain pride – thinking they deserve something better than certain others – will harvest the fruits (prison) of their pride.  And those that set aside pride and forgive others will be free because it is impossible to believe in Christ and not forgive others – to think otherwise is the trap and bondage of pride.

 

The Traveler

[runewell]

55 minutes ago, Traveler said:

[1] Obviously, anyone considering “Good Enough” and concluding anything while a mortal (between birth and death) is flawed and a lie.  The idea or doctrine that any man is “Good Enough” to be forgiven while someone else is not quite “Good Enough” is logically flawed, empirically inconsistent and a spiritual denial of a “Good” true and living G-d.

[2] Obviously, we have some contribution that allows or determines salvation.   I am certain that pride is perhaps the greatest deterrent in qualifying for salvation and forgiveness.   And what is this pride that would deter?  I do not pretend to have the answer – but one thing I am certain – anyone that thinks they qualify and need not worry but others are in grave danger – are caught in the chains of their own pride.

[3] Fulfilling the covenant of Eden – before any mortal was born – we were promised the knowledge of good and evil.  The knowledge of evil is the experience of death – the knowledge of good is the experience of forgiveness and the resurrection.   

I haven't figured how to get multiple quotes on here easily enough, so I'll try numbering your thoughts.

[1] Agree

[2] I think I disagree here.  What contribution can we possibly make (apart from confessing our sins and accepting the free gift).  Psalm 14 says:

 

Quote

 

2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 

 

3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. 

 

 

[3] I never thought of the Eden incident as a covenant per se.    But it is true that we were only promised the knowledge of good and evil - if only as a result of sin.

 

 

 

 

[Bill (Papa) Lee]

On April 18, 2017 at 0:20 PM, Carborendum said:

We had a discussion in priesthood about the following talk:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/am-i-good-enough-will-i-make-it?lang=eng

But I'm afraid most of the people, myself included, completely missed the point.  I kept hearing the phrase "make it across the line."  But it was stated in such a way that there is this particular measure on the "good/evil" measuring bar.  And we had to be "at least this tall take this ride."  I voiced my disagreement with that sentiment.  My main objection was that it may actually be a hindrance for many.

If there is this "line" to cross, then we get the impression that if we're on that side of it, we can coast.  That is not what the gospel teaches.  That's not what Elder Cornish's talk was about.  It is about ETERNAL progression.  We're here to perfect ourselves.  But we will never be perfect in this life.  That is why Christ had to do things for us.  But it doesn't mean we can coast because we just "leave it all to the Lord."

Elder Cornish's talk basically founds itself on the Quote from Pres. Hinckley.

Then he spoke of how much the Lord WANTS us to succeed.  He WANTS to perfect us.  But we can only do so by continually repenting without rationalization or rebellion.

There is no line or "finish line". We rely on the Grace and Merits of Christ, and all he requires is that we keep moving forward, and if we "backslide" that we repent. The "finish line", the only finish line was crossed when Jesus Christ said; "it is finished". Without the Atonement, without the Gace of God (as stated in the BoM 2 Nephi chapter 9-10) we would all become angels to a devil. We are perfected in Christ, we cannot perfect ourselves, we cannot work ourselves into heaven. Our works certainly are required for exaltation, but only if aided by the Grace of our Savior, as we cannot save ourselves. 

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, runewell said:

 

So how does a sense of "Am I Good Enough? Will I Make It?" linger?  (I realize JohnsonJones that those weren't your words)

I think our theology of three worlds of glory plays a large part in that. I wish it werent so, we would achieve greater righteousness if we just had a one heaven model.

[runewell]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think our theology of three worlds of glory plays a large part in that. I wish it werent so, we would achieve greater righteousness if we just had a one heaven model.

Go on...  I seem to understand that some of the works-based striving seems to be centered on the exaltation component (I doubt you guys use the word component, what can I say I'm a Christian mathematician)

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, runewell said:

Go on...  I seem to understand that some of the works-based striving seems to be centered on the exaltation component (I doubt you guys use the word component, what can I say I'm a Christian mathematician)

In our salvation model we truly only view the celestial kingdom as "the kingdom of heaven". But, that is just a generality and isnt completely true. In speaking from a strict dichotomy heaven/hell view, all three kingdoms- the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial are all part of the "mansions" of heaven. So, it starts becoming rather vague. In our gospel we only teach principles, laws and ordinances that are required for entrance into the celestial kingdom. We do not teach of ordinances that place one eternally in either the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms. That being said, we do teach that it is possible to be savedfrom hell eternally but yet not be valiant to Christ or not fully committed to his laws. Because none of us are perfect (without sin) we thus try to justify our placement in one of the three kingdoms based upon our current view on how valiant or how much we are committed, even guessing on just where that line is that separates the upper kingdoms from the lower kingdoms. But, its all vague and everyone is guessing to the point where because of our imperfections here in this life we automatically start assuming were just not good enough.

But, if we truly only taught one heaven as being one physical place it would erase all this vagueness and people would be more willing to strive the actual perfection required to be saved. Thus, more of a drive to not only work harder on our ow righteousness but in seeking out this same for all others. As it stands now, when we try to teach the gospel to someone else and they seemingly constantly refuse we just go on and leave them in a sense judging that they will just go to a lesser kingdom anyway. We somehow miss the entire point of the core book of our doctrine- the Book of Mormon where in it it teaches Christs gospel, the same as the New Testament of there being only one heaven and one hell and in order to be saved from that hell into heaven one must repent and be born again.

 

 

[runewell]

23 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

But, if we truly only taught one heaven as being one physical place it would erase all this vagueness and people would be more willing to strive the actual perfection required to be saved.

Now I'm confused again - do you equate celestial kingdom and not other kingdoms as saved?

[JohnsonJones]

10 minutes ago, runewell said:

Now I'm confused again - do you equate celestial kingdom and not other kingdoms as saved?

It goes off the verse, In my father's house are many mansions (or rooms, depending on your translation).

If I understand Rob correctly, the LDS aim to be in the biggest rooms/top rooms vs. any rooms.

In a brief nutshell...

In order to get into the Kingdom of Heaven, all one needs to do is acknowledge the Lord and the atonement either in this life or the next.  Pretty inclusive, more so than many other Christian sects.  Thus, all those who get into the Kingdom of Heaven are saved.

However, to be constantly in the presence of the Lord in the next life, or in rooms/mansions closer to his at the top, we need to show that we actually love him, our hearts are towards him, and thus we want to be like him and do what he does.  Our actions can reflect this as we obey his commandments.  However, in the end, the Lord is the one who knows best and makes those types of decisions.  The LDS thus focus on what is hoped for will gain a greater reward then simply what is just enough to get to heaven itself.

I think the supposition Rob makes is if instead of focusing on the many different rooms/rewards/mansions in heaven, we instead simply focus on heaven and the love we need to feel towards the Lord, it would be simpler and more straightforward.  (is this correct, I could be wrong in interpreting what Rob stated).

Edited April 20, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[The Folk Prophet]

23 minutes ago, runewell said:

Now I'm confused again - do you equate celestial kingdom and not other kingdoms as saved?

"Saved" is such a generic term. Saved from what, exactly? In terms of salvation from any sort of damnation (which we equate to mean being stopped (literally damned) from progression), then yes, saved is only the Celestial Kingdom. If you mean saved from something else (like outer darkness), then saved means all of the three kingdoms.

The most common usage of the word in the LDS gospel, however, does mean exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, runewell said:

Now I'm confused again - do you equate celestial kingdom and not other kingdoms as saved?

My own personal view is different than mainstream LDS doctrine even though I am devout active LDS. My own view is that only the celestial kingdom, or "kingdom of heaven" exists after the millennium for the saved to go and all who want saved from hell must repent and be born again in order to be saved from hell and into the kingdom. The telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are just stages of the earth before the end of the millennium. Right now we are in the telestial kingdom.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

"Saved" is such a generic term. Saved from what, exactly? In terms of salvation from any sort of damnation (which we equate to mean being stopped (literally damned) from progression), then yes, saved is only the Celestial Kingdom. If you mean saved from something else (like outer darkness), then saved means all of the three kingdoms.

The most common usage of the word in the LDS gospel, however, does mean exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.

This is where our doctrine gets all confusing. Perfect example. Thanks.

[skalenfehl]

Quote

Ether 4:15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

I can never be good enough. Because of the fall of Adam, I am, in the flesh and an enemy to God. I have come to know that I do not deserve anything He has to offer. I cannot earn my way into heaven. I can never repay Jesus Christ. It is only by His merit and His merit alone that I can even beg for His mercy. It is by His grace alone that He can save me if I obey His commandments. And by obeying His commandments, I can learn to be like Him. And if I do my very best, His grace is sufficient, scarlet as my sins are. Truly He is mighty to save. I can never be enough, but I can do enough. 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

This is where our doctrine gets all confusing. Perfect example. Thanks.

Anything is confusing if people don't understand it. That doesn't make the thing itself confusing.

If I saved you from a burning building would you presume that meant that I'd saved you from drowning?

Saved requires a "from".

The only reason there's any confusion is because in the so-called "Christian" world there is only heaven and hell...hence only one "saved". The tradition of that has confused some people who haven't bothered to actually think about the matter, but then again, it doesn't exactly require much depth of thought. In point of fact, only those who are trying to explain things in "Christian" ways and fit it into the gospel cause any confusion in the matter. Everyone else simply knows that saved means exalted and there's no reason to confuse the matter beyond that for most discussions.

[JohnsonJones]

Saved apparently means different things to different Mormons.

Saved is something similar to every Christian, which is that you are saved from Sin (and Hell) and physical death (hence resurrection).  Because of the Atonement we are not automatically going to Hell, and we can be saved from our sins and Hell as well as death itself (resurrection).  We are SAVED by the great mercy of the Lord.  He is the one that saves us.

Using the word in CONTEXT, rather than what some LDS ascribe it to, the word Damn as in the New Testament means condemned to suffer eternal punishment in Hell, or condemned to a spiritual death away from heaven.

Yes, we are saved from Damnation in that idea, but that's the same as being Saved from Hell.

What SOME Mormons are thinking is more like  a DAM (which is something that can hold back water or is a barrier to something) which is a barrier in their minds to eternal exaltation/advancement which is entirely different.  The idea of LDS exaltation, as some are using it, is mostly a FOREIGN concept in the Christian world, and some would indicate it would be heresy in most Christian Religions.

Salvation on the otherhand, as understood by Christian Religions, which is being saved in the Kingdom of the Lord, or saved from our Sins and Hell is very similar.

As per Russell M. Nelson, he explains it thus

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To be saved—or to gain salvation—means to be saved from physical and spiritual death. Because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death. People may also be saved from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him.

To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now.⁶

As part of that preparation, one must first hear and understand the gospel. For this reason the gospel of Jesus Christ is being taken to “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”⁷

April 2008 Russell M. Nelson's Salvation and Exaltation

And from the LDS org under it's guide to the scriptures it states...

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To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.

Guide to the Scriptures - Salvation

Though it appears some may have various definitions and ideas in these regards.

Edited April 21, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Guest]

14 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The only reason there's any confusion is because in the so-called "Christian" world there is only heaven and hell...hence only one "saved". The tradition of that has confused some people who haven't bothered to actually think about the matter, but then again, it doesn't exactly require much depth of thought. In point of fact, only those who are trying to explain things in "Christian" ways and fit it into the gospel cause any confusion in the matter. Everyone else simply knows that saved means exalted and there's no reason to confuse the matter beyond that for most discussions.

You might be forgetting that Rob only believes in a Heaven and Hell as well.  That's why it is as confusing to him as it would be to non-Mormons.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Guest