• Announcements

    • Heather

      Mormon Hub Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting   04/17/08

      Any views expressed on Mormon Hub are independent of and do not represent the views of Mormon Hub, More Good Foundation, or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Site Rules 1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere. 2. Please be conscious of the fact that although Mormon Hub is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of Mormon Hub are welcome to participate and be a member of Mormon Hub. Keep in mind that anything posted, uploaded, or otherwise displayed on the site should be understandable to friends of other faiths as well as to members. Please define any LDS vocabulary that friends of other faiths may not understand (i.e. Mutual, Relief Society, and Deacon.) 3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated. 4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post. 5. No cursing or crude language. Any swearing, including filter skipping, will result in an automatic one week suspension. 6. Posting issues you have with a moderator or administrator anywhere on the site will not be allowed. Please follow the chain of authority if you have any concerns. Any such posts will be removed and the poster will be subject to the consequences of breaking the rules. List of site moderators Course of action that should be taken if you have a concern: - Send a message directly to the moderator you have a concern about. If you are unable to work out the problem then, - Send a message to the head moderators. - If after you have approached both avenues, you may then send a message to Heather; however know that Heather is very unlikely to over rule anything that has been sanctioned by the moderators and head moderators. 7. Multiple accounts are not allowed and will result in all accounts being banned from the site. 8. Please do not share any "true" or "faith promoting" stories, unless you can verify the source. 9. Do not post any copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you. 10. Bigoted/racial/ethnic comments will not be tolerated. Political Neutrality Policy More Good Foundation, as a nonprofit foundation, must remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. The foundation encourages its members and staff to be informed about political issues and to be engaged in civic life; however, it does not endorse or oppose any political parties, candidates, or platforms. Mormon Hub will allow political discussion, also long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules. As a non-profit organization, 501©3, we are governed by legal constraints relative to writing, blogging, or otherwise endorsing any candidate running for political office. The law states, in effect, that no one acting on behalf of the nonprofit can intervene directly or indirectly in the election process by endorsing a political candidate. Any post that speaks favorably about one candidate, even in a religious context, can be construed as indirect intervention in the election process. While journalists are presently exempt from this provision, bloggers and forum-members are not. 12. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. 13. You will not use this site to solicit the sale of any product, service or website. You will not use this site to promote a money making venture or contest. If appropriate, you may post a link to your personal website or to your business on your profile, in your forum signature, and you make create one post in the web link section of the forum. Do not post any link or discuss any business, service, or website that violates any rule of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the content of any site linked on Mormon Hub. Consequences to these rules could result in the following, and are determined on a case by case basis. Anything that an Administrator or Moderator determines is more than just an infraction of the rules, will result in immediate banning from the site and/or legal action: First infraction will result in a warning and a message from a moderator on what rule was broken. Second infraction will result in a one week suspension followed by a two week moderator post approval Third infraction will result in banned from the site for good. Any topic, message, video, music, image, or other upload or submission to the site that breaks any rules will be deleted. Please remember that we are not responsible for anything posted or uploaded. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message or upload. We are not responsible for the contents of any message, video, image, post or upload. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Mormon Hub , More Good Foundation, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact the Administration immediately by Private Message, Email, or Report a Post. We will make every effort to remove objectionable messages and uploads within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. Mormon Hub Terms of Use Agreement January 8, 2008 Mormon Hub is a social networking service that allows Members to create unique personal profiles online in order to find and communicate with old and new friends. Mormon Hub refers to "Mormon Hub or its proprietors." The services offered by Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub" or "we") include the Mormon Hub website (the "Mormon Hub Website"), the Mormon Hub Internet messaging service, and any other features, content, or applications offered from time to time by Mormon Hub in connection with the Mormon Hub Website (collectively, the "Mormon Hub Services"). The Mormon Hub Services are hosted in the U.S. This Terms of Use Agreement ("Agreement") sets forth the legally binding terms for your use of the Mormon Hub Services. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you agree to be bound by this Agreement, whether you are a "Visitor" (which means that you simply browse the Mormon Hub Website) or you are a "Member" (which means that you have registered with Mormon Hub). The term "User" refers to a Visitor or a Member. You are only authorized to use the Mormon Hub Services (regardless of whether your access or use is intended) if you agree to abide by all applicable laws and to this Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully and save it. If you do not agree with it, you should leave the Mormon Hub Website and discontinue use of the Mormon Hub Services immediately. If you wish to become a Member, communicate with other Members and make use of the Mormon Hub Services, you must read this Agreement and indicate your acceptance during the Registration process. This Agreement includes Mormon Hub's policy for acceptable use of the Mormon Hub Services and Content posted on the Mormon Hub Website, your rights, obligations and restrictions regarding your use of the Mormon Hub Services and Mormon Hub's Privacy Policy. In order to participate in certain Mormon Hub Services, you may be notified that you are required to download software or content and/or agree to additional terms and conditions. Unless otherwise provided by the additional terms and conditions applicable to the Mormon Hub Services in which you choose to participate, those additional terms are hereby incorporated into this Agreement.  Mormon Hub may modify this Agreement from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting by Mormon Hub on the Mormon Hub Website. You agree to be bound to any changes to this Agreement when you use the Mormon Hub Services after any such modification is posted. It is therefore important that you review this Agreement regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes. Please choose carefully the information you post on Mormon Hub and that you provide to other Users. You may NOT include any of the following information anywhere on Mormon Hub, including private messages: telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, and any photographs containing nudity, or obscene, lewd, excessively violent, harassing, sexually explicit or otherwise objectionable subject matter. Email addresses should NEVER be posted to the general public. Despite this prohibition, information provided by other Mormon Hub Members (for instance, in their Profile) may contain inaccurate, inappropriate, offensive or sexually explicit material, products or services, and Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility or liability for this material. If you become aware of misuse of the Mormon Hub Services by any person, please contact Mormon Hub or click on the "Report Inappropriate Content" link at the bottom of any Mormon Hub page. Mormon Hub reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to moderate, reject, refuse to post or remove any posting (including private messages) by you, or to restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to all or any part of the Mormon Hub Services at any time, for any or no reason, with or without prior notice, and without liability. Mormon Hub expressly reserves the right to remove your profile and/or restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to any part of Mormon Hub Services if Mormon Hub determines, in its sole discretion, that you pose a threat to Mormon Hub and/or its Users. Mormon Hub reserves the right to ask a member to change their username if it is found to be offensive or can be perceived as offensive. Due to the sacredness, this would include any usernames that include, Jesus, Christ, God, Lord, names of Prophets, General authorities etc. The names of personal or business websites, blogs, etc. to promote said sites is also prohibited. Using names of political figures or party affiliation is also prohibited. 1. Eligibility. Use of and Membership in the Mormon Hub Services is void where prohibited. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you represent and warrant that (a) all registration information you submit is truthful and accurate; ( B) you will maintain the accuracy of such information; © you are 14 years of age or older; and (d) your use of the Mormon Hub Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation. Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe that you are under 14 years of age. 2. Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Mormon Hub Services or are a Member. You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason, emailing an admin. Mormon Hub may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, including sections 5-17. 3. Password. When you sign up to become a Member, you will also be asked to choose a password. You are entirely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password. You agree not to use the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or to disclose your password to any third party. You agree to notify Mormon Hub immediately if you suspect any unauthorized use of your account or access to your password. You are solely responsible for any and all use of your account. 4. Non-commercial Use by Members. The Mormon Hub Services are for the personal use of Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors except those that are specifically endorsed or approved by Mormon Hub. Illegal and/or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services, including collecting usernames and/or email addresses of Members by electronic or other means for the purpose of sending unsolicited email or unauthorized framing of or linking to the Mormon Hub Website is prohibited. Commercial advertisements, affiliate links, and other forms of solicitation may be removed from Member profiles without notice and may result in termination of Membership privileges. Appropriate legal action will be taken for any illegal or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services. 5. Proprietary Rights in Content on Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub does not claim any ownership rights in the text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, musical works, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") that you post to the Mormon Hub Services. After posting your Content to the Mormon Hub Services, you continue to retain all ownership rights in such Content, and you continue to have the right to use your Content in any way you choose. By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services, you hereby grant to Mormon Hub a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on and through the Mormon Hub Services.
      Without this license, Mormon Hub would be unable to provide the Mormon Hub Services. For example, without the right to modify Member Content, Mormon Hub would not be able to digitally compress music files that Members submit or otherwise format Content to satisfy technical requirements, and without the right to publicly perform Member Content, Mormon Hub could not allow Users to listen to music posted by Members. The license you grant to Mormon Hub is non-exclusive (meaning you are free to license your Content to anyone else in addition to Mormon Hub), fully-paid and royalty-free (meaning that Mormon Hub is not required to pay you for the use on the Mormon Hub Services of the Content that you post), sublicensable (so that Mormon Hub is able to use its affiliates and subcontractors such as Internet content delivery networks to provide the Mormon Hub Services), and worldwide (because the Internet and the Mormon Hub Services are global in reach). This license will terminate at the time you remove your Content from the Mormon Hub Services. The license does not grant Mormon Hub the right to sell your Content, nor does the license grant Mormon Hub the right to distribute your Content outside of theMormon Hub Services. You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the Content posted by you on or through the Mormon Hub Services or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth in this section, and (ii) the posting of your Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person. You agree to pay for all royalties, fees, and any other monies owing any person by reason of any Content posted by you to or through the LDS.Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub Content"). Mormon Hub Content is protected by copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret and other laws, and Mormon Hub owns and retains all rights in the Mormon Hub Content and the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub hereby grants you a limited, revocable, nonsublicensable license to reproduce and display the Mormon Hub Content (excluding any software code) solely for your personal use in connection with viewing the Mormon Hub Website and using the Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Users and other Mormon Hub licensors. Except for Content posted by you, you may not copy, modify, translate, publish, broadcast, transmit, distribute, perform, display, or sell any Content appearing on or through the Mormon Hub Services.   6. Content Posted. Mormon Hub may delete any Content that in the sole judgment of Mormon Hub violates this Agreement or which may be offensive, illegal or violate the rights, harm, or threaten the safety of any person. Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility for monitoring the Mormon Hub Services for inappropriate Content or conduct. If at any time Mormon Hub chooses, in its sole discretion, to monitor the Mormon Hub Services, Mormon Hub nonetheless assumes no responsibility for the Content, no obligation to modify or remove any inappropriate Content, and no responsibility for the conduct of the User submitting any such Content. You are solely responsible for the Content that you post on or through any of the Mormon Hub Services, and any material or information that you transmit to other Members and for your interactions with other Users. Mormon Hub does not endorse and has no control over the Content. Content is not necessarily reviewed by Mormon Hub prior to posting and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub makes no warranties, express or implied, as to the Content or to the accuracy and reliability of the Content or any material or information that you transmit to other Members.   7. Content/Activity Prohibited. The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited to post on or through the Mormon Hub Services.Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending communication from the Mormon Hub Services and terminating the Membership of such violators. Prohibited Content includes, but is not limited to Content that, in the sole discretion of Mormon Hub: is patently offensive and promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person; exploits people in a sexual or violent manner; contains nudity, violence, or offensive subject matter or contains a link to an adult website; solicits personal information from anyone; provides any telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, URLs or email addresses; promotes information that you know is false or misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory or libelous; promotes an illegal or unauthorized copy of another person's copyrighted work, such as providing pirated computer programs or links to them, providing information to circumvent manufacture-installed copy-protect devices, or providing pirated music or links to pirated music files; involves the transmission of "junk mail," "chain letters," or unsolicited mass mailing, instant messaging, "spimming," or "spamming"; contains restricted or password only access pages or hidden pages or images (those not linked to or from another accessible page); furthers or promotes any criminal activity or enterprise or provides instructional information about illegal activities including, but not limited to making or buying illegal weapons, violating someone's privacy, or providing or creating computer viruses; solicits passwords or personal identifying information for commercial or unlawful purposes from other Users; involves commercial activities and/or sales without our prior written consent such as contests, sweepstakes, barter, advertising, or pyramid schemes; includes a photograph of another person that you have posted without that person's consent; or uses sexually suggestive imagery or any other unfair, misleading or deceptive Content intended to draw traffic to the profile.
      The following is a partial list of the kind of activity that is illegal or prohibited on the Mormon Hub Website and through your use of the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, reporting you to law enforcement authorities. Prohibited activity includes, but is not limited to: criminal or tortuous activity, including child pornography, fraud, trafficking in obscene material, drug dealing, gambling, harassment, stalking, spamming, spimming, sending of viruses or other harmful files, copyright infringement, patent infringement, or theft of trade secrets; advertising to, or solicitation of, any Member to buy or sell any products or services through the Mormon Hub Services. You may not transmit any chain letters or junk email to other Members. It is also a violation of these rules to use any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to contact, advertise to, solicit, or sell to any Member without their prior explicit consent. In order to protect our Members from such advertising or solicitation, Mormon Hub reserves the right to restrict the number of emails which a Member may send to other Members in any 24-hour period to a number which Mormon Hub deems appropriate in its sole discretion. If you breach this Agreement and send unsolicited bulk email, instant messages or other unsolicited communications of any kind through the Mormon Hub Services, you acknowledge that you will have caused substantial harm to Mormon Hub, but that the amount of such harm would be extremely difficult to ascertain. As a reasonable estimation of such harm, you agree to pay Mormon Hub $50 for each such unsolicited email or other unsolicited communication you send through the Mormon Hub Services; covering or obscuring the banner advertisements on your personal profile page, or any Mormon Hub page via HTML/CSS or any other means; any automated use of the system, such as using scripts to add friends or send comments or messages; interfering with, disrupting, or creating an undue burden on the Mormon Hub Services or the networks or services connected to the Mormon Hub Services; attempting to impersonate another Member or person; copying the code for your Mormon Hub Player and embedding it into other profiles or asking other Members to embed it into their profiles; using the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or disclosing your password to any third party or permitting any third party to access your account; selling or otherwise transferring your profile; using any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to harass, abuse, or harm another person; displaying an advertisement on your profile, or accepting payment or anything of value from a third person in exchange for your performing any commercial activity on or through the Mormon Hub Services on behalf of that person, such as placing commercial content on your profile, posting blogs or bulletins with a commercial purpose, selecting a profile with a commercial purpose as one of your "Top" friends, or sending private messages with a commercial purpose; or using the Mormon Hub Services in a manner inconsistent with any and all applicable laws and regulations.   8. Copyright Policy. You may not post, modify, distribute, or reproduce in any way any copyrighted material, trademarks, or other proprietary information belonging to others without obtaining the prior written consent of the owner of such proprietary rights. It is the policy of Mormon Hub to terminate Membership privileges of any Member who repeatedly infringes the copyright rights of others upon receipt of proper notification to Mormon Hub by the copyright owner or the copyright owner's legal agent. Without limiting the foregoing, if you believe that your work has been copied and posted on the Mormon Hub Services in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide our Copyright Agent with the following information: (i) an electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright interest; (ii) a description of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed; (iii) a description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the Mormon Hub Services; (iv) your address, telephone number, and email address; (v) a written statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law; (vi) a statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your notice is accurate and that you are the copyright owner or authorized to act on the copyright owner's behalf. 9. Member Disputes. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other Mormon Hub Members. Mormon Hub reserves the right, but has no obligation, to monitor disputes between you and other Members. 10. Privacy. Use of the Mormon Hub Services is also governed by our Privacy Policy, which is incorporated into this Agreement by this reference. 11. Disclaimers. Mormon Hub is not responsible for any incorrect or inaccurate Content posted on the Mormon Hub Website or in connection with the Mormon Hub Services, whether caused by Users of the Mormon Hub Services or by any of the equipment or programming associated with or utilized in the Mormon Hub Services. Profiles created and posted by Members on the Mormon Hub Website may contain links to other websites. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the Content, accuracy or opinions expressed on such websites, and such websites are in no way investigated, monitored or checked for accuracy or completeness by Mormon Hub. Inclusion of any linked website on the Mormon Hub Services does not imply approval or endorsement of the linked website by Mormon Hub. When you access these third-party sites, you do so at your own risk. Mormon Hub takes no responsibility for third party advertisements which are posted on this Mormon Hub Website or through the Mormon Hub Services, nor does it take any responsibility for the goods or services provided by its advertisers. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the conduct, whether online or offline, of any User of the Mormon Hub Services.Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility for any error, omission, interruption, deletion, defect, delay in operation or transmission, communications line failure, theft or destruction or unauthorized access to, or alteration of, any User or Member communication. Mormon Hub is not responsible for any problems or technical malfunction of any telephone network or lines, computer online systems, servers or providers, computer equipment, software, failure of any email or players due to technical problems or traffic congestion on the Internet or on any of the Mormon Hub Services or combination thereof, including any injury or damage to Users or to any person's computer related to or resulting from participation or downloading materials in connection with the Mormon Hub Services. Under no circumstances shall Mormon Hub be responsible for any loss or damage, including personal injury or death, resulting from use of the Mormon Hub Services, attendance at a Mormon Hub event, from any Content posted on or through the Mormon Hub Services, or from the conduct of any Users of the Mormon Hub Services, whether online or offline. The Mormon Hub Services are provided "AS-IS" and as available and Mormon Hub expressly disclaims any warranty of fitness for a particular purpose or non-infringement. Mormon Hub cannot guarantee and does not promise any specific results from use of the Mormon Hub Services. 12. Limitation on Liability. IN NO EVENT SHALL MORMON HUB BE LIABLE TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, EXEMPLARY, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, INCLUDING LOST PROFIT DAMAGES ARISING FROM YOUR USE OF THE SERVICES, EVEN IF MORMON HUB HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY CONTAINED HEREIN, MORMON HUB'S LIABILITY TO YOU FOR ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER AND REGARDLESS OF THE FORM OF THE ACTION, WILL AT ALL TIMES BE LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT PAID, IF ANY, BY YOU TO MORMON HUB FOR THE MORMON HUB SERVICES DURING THE TERM OF MEMBERSHIP. 13. U.S. Export Controls. Software available in connection with the Mormon Hub Services (the "Software") is further subject to United States export controls. No Software may be downloaded from the Mormon Hub Services or otherwise exported or re-exported in violation of U.S. export laws. Downloading or using the Software is at your sole risk. 14. Disputes. If there is any dispute about or involving the Mormon Hub Services, you agree that the dispute shall be governed by the laws of the State of Utah, USA, without regard to conflict of law provisions and you agree to exclusive personal jurisdiction and venue in the state and federal courts of the United States located in the State of Utah, City of Orem. Either Mormon Hub or you may demand that any dispute between Mormon Hub and you about or involving the Mormon Hub Services must be settled by arbitration utilizing the dispute resolution procedures of the American Arbitration Association (AAA) in Orem, Utah, USA, provided that the foregoing shall not prevent Mormon Hub from seeking injunctive relief in a court of competent jurisdiction. 15. Indemnity. You agree to indemnify and hold Mormon Hub, its subsidiaries, and affiliates, and their respective officers, agents, partners and employees, harmless from any loss, liability, claim, or demand, including reasonable attorneys' fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of your use of the Mormon Hub Services in violation of this Agreement and/or arising from a breach of this Agreement and/or any breach of your representations and warranties set forth above and/or if any Content that you post on theMormon Hub Website or through the Mormon Hub Services causes Mormon Hub to be liable to another. 16. Other. This Agreement is accepted upon your use of the Mormon Hub Website or any of the Mormon Hub Services and is further affirmed by you becoming a Member. This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between you and Mormon Hub regarding the use of the Mormon Hub Services. The failure of Mormon Hub to exercise or enforce any right or provision of this Agreement shall not operate as a waiver of such right or provision. The section titles in this Agreement are for convenience only and have no legal or contractual effect. Mormon Hub is a trademark of Mormon Hub, Inc. This Agreement operates to the fullest extent permissible by law. If any provision of this Agreement is unlawful, void or unenforceable, that provision is deemed severable from this Agreement and does not affect the validity and enforceability of any remaining provisions. Please contact us at: Contact Mormon Hub with any questions regarding this Agreement.   Use the online HTML tidy to compose similar articles in your web browser.
Lostboy289

Crisis of Faith - Dear John Letters

314 posts in this topic

I know this is going to sound super silly, and to be honest I feel silly just writing it. But the more I try and brush it off, the more I keep getting really bothered by it. And that thing that I'm bothered by is the Mormon cultural acceptance of "Dear John" letters among missionaries.

Now I'm a convert, so I sadly never got a chance to serve a mission. But I had a similar experience in that I was suddenly dumped by my girlfriend (a committed Mormon with a flawless testimony) while serving far away in the military only a week before I was coming to see her, so she could be with another guy in her singles ward. I remember how absolutely destroyed I was. It still hurts just to think about it. And I was a member of  YSA ward when I lived in an area that had one, so I did have experience with seeing the fallout of these letters.

I remember one time there was a couple who seemed to be madly in love. Then the Brother went on a mission, during his going away talk announcing that he had proposed to his girlfriend and that as hard as his mission would be, he looked forward to having her to come back to. Two weeks later in sacrament meeting she was getting pretty cozy with another guy in front of everyone. I asked her how her fiancé was doing, and her response indicated that she clearly hadn't told him. Everyone in the ward talked about it as if it was this cute little gossip.

A month later this new couple was engaged. I wrote the Elder a letter a few weeks later asking how he was holding up. It wasn't good. Apparently he was on the verge of being sent home because he was barely able to hold it together. Twice he burst into tears in the middle of a lesson, wasn't getting along with his companion (who encouraged him to just get over it), and he hadn't been able to sleep or eat in awhile.  As everyone was celebrating and congratulating the new couple, all I could think about was this Elder, off dedicating his whole life to Heavenly Father, now on the receiving end of horrible cruelty by not only one of his best friends, but the woman who only weeks earlier pledged to spend eternity with him. Even though I never said anything to the couple, I declined the invitation to their wedding and left the room whenever people were congratulating them, as seeing what they did to a fellow Mormon Brother was just something I couldn't celebrate.

I just don't get why this behavior is not only acceptable, but such a widespread thing among youth?

The more I read about this, the more that I see that this is practically common. Brothers and Sisters often cheating on their signifigant other who is off serving a mission, often with that person's friends or even family (can you imagine spending the rest of your life with your ex as your sister in law, knowing your own brother betrayed you?). Frequently, the missionary doesn't even find out until their former gf/bf is engaged. Why would you even send an engagement announcement? Seems like rubbing salt in the wound.

One of the interview questions for a temple recommend is regarding your honesty in your dealings with your fellow man. What is honest about promising to wait for someone, only to abandon that promise the second something better comes along? How is that Christlike? How is destroying someone else because their happiness stands in the way of ours, only to build our new lives on the ruin of their old one, not the exact opposite of everything Jesus taught us? Not the exact opposite of every virtue we try to cultivate in ourselves and the standard we strive to achieve by being a member?

Now I understand there is a difference between hating the sinner and the sin, but even when someone is sinning we gently and lovingly let them know that what they are doing is wrong. Even having one alcoholic drink is enough to lose your temple recommend over. But cheating on your missionary boyfriend/girlfriend, or seducing your missionary friend's boyfriend girlfriend, is apparently not only completely honest and Christlike behavior, but a cause for celebration among that person's peers and religious leaders?

It honestly just makes me sick and depressed thinking about it, and more than anything else makes me question this church.

LiterateParakeet likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you there is a problem, and this behavior is not Christ-like.

I don't think the Dear John letters are the problem, though.  I think they are a symptom.

The real problem is getting too serious when you are too young.  This goes double when a mission is on the horizon.  Almost everyone would be much better off waiting until after a mission is over before getting into these types of relationships.  If people would just follow this guideline, we wouldn't have the type of heartache you describe.

(I understand talking about marriage at age 18 works for some people.  But let's face it - it is a mistake for the vast majority.)

Edited by DoctorLemon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I agree with you there is a problem, and this behavior is not Christ-like.

I don't think the Dear John letters are the problem, though.  I think they are a symptom.

The real problem is getting too serious when you are too young.  This goes double when a mission is on the horizon.  Almost everyone would be much better off waiting until after a mission is over before getting into these types of relationships.  If people would just follow this guideline, we wouldn't have the type of heartache you describe.

(I understand talking about marriage at age 18 works for some people.  But let's face it - it is a mistake for the vast majority.)

 You know @DoctorLemon, I know I already said but re-reading your post I really think it was fantastic. 

These letters are a problem-it's hurtful to the men and women who get them. 

If you choose to go on a mission, shouldn't you be single beforehand so you can focus on the mission and not your boyfriend or girlfriend? 
 

Getting married at 18 might have worked-in 1905 when lifespans were much shorter. It's a different world now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 You know @DoctorLemon, I know I already said but re-reading your post I really think it was fantastic. 

These letters are a problem-it's hurtful to the men and women who get them. 

If you choose to go on a mission, shouldn't you be single beforehand so you can focus on the mission and not your boyfriend or girlfriend? 
 

Getting married at 18 might have worked-in 1905 when lifespans were much shorter. It's a different world now. 

Another consideration - people change a lot between 18 and 22.  I went from being a long haired nu-metal fanboy punk to a respectable adult in those years.  If you get engaged to an 18 year old, that person may be completely different in just a few years.  (This is likely one reason why missions happen during this timeframe - people are very malleable at this age and it is a good time to sway them towards righteousness for the rest of their lives).  I would wait until a person has stabilized as an adult before making a commitment such as an engagement.  

Edited by DoctorLemon
MormonGator and Sunday21 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe you shouldn't be in a relationship before you go on a mission. But if you already are, as far as I'm concerned you've made a commitment to them for the time they are away. And commitments aren't made for the times that they are easy. They are made for the times that they are hard. Otherwise you wouldn't need to make one.

Not being in a serious relationship that young may be an issue, but the bigger issue here is how you handle yourself once you are already there.  Although the case I spoke of involved a Missionary who was 23 and his GF was 24. And I got my version of a Dear John when I was 27 and she 25. 

 

And Folk Prophet, I agree that this is a young people problem. But why is this the only young people problem that we as a Mormon culture seem to look the other way on? Church leadership speaks on the evils of drinking, drugs, pre-martial sex, and pornography. All problems rampant among the world's youth. Why are those spoken out against, but this isn't? Why is breaking the law of chastity or drinking enough to lose your temple recommend, but cheating on your boyfriend to marry another man is cause to receive one?

Edited by Lostboy289

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DoctorLemon is absolutely right on this. 

Our current modern culture, for better or for worse, is generally not ready to commit to eternal marriage at these young ages. 

Yes, it's certainly a low blow to be cuddling up with another young man/woman after your significant other has left on the mission/military/journey to the center of the earth. 

But... is it also wise to be getting engaged before a mission? Is it wise to be getting all romantic and placing these expectations on others?

I have trouble saying Dear Johning is unacceptable. It's a relationship, it ended, and John wasn't physically present. Do we really want to require every young man/woman to wait for a missionary?

Yes, it's best to discourage the serious relationship early on than to get into that kind of mess.

SilentOne and yjacket like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, we should expect young people to honor their commitments. Just like we expect them to abstain from harmful substances, remain sexually pure, and even take on the huge responsibility of serving a mission. And that is the problem.

Up until very recently, people 18 and up were considered mature adults and held accountable for their actions towards others. They were expected to hold jobs, get married, raise children, follow the law, ect. Why is it suddenly different? And why is this the one area where we relax our standards for what is expected of them?

Edited by Lostboy289
NightSG likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all if getting a Dear John during a person's mission causes a Crisis of Faith then that person's faith is sorely misplaced.

Now I don't know what culture everyone else has been exposed to during that mission age.   But I know that I was totally informed of the dangers of Dear Johns before  serving a mission.  I heard many stories of Dear Johns and how had different impacts to different people.  I also heard stories about those that waited and how only a few worked out (but yes some did)

This is the culture I was exposed to... and then I was considered an adult and left to make my own choices in how to handle dating, the matter no matter how foolish other might think they are.

As for being committed...  If you want commitment then get married...  Until then people are just dating and can break up for any reason... Including changing their mind about a long distance relationship.  After all we would much rather someone Dear John a hundred missionaries then terminate 1 marriage 

Eowyn, Backroads, SilentOne and 3 others like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lostboy289 said:

One of the interview questions for a temple recommend is regarding your honesty in your dealings with your fellow man. What is honest about promising to wait for someone, only to abandon that promise the second something better comes along? How is that Christlike? How is destroying someone else because their happiness stands in the way of ours, only to build our new lives on the ruin of their old one, not the exact opposite of everything Jesus taught us? Not the exact opposite of every virtue we try to cultivate in ourselves and the standard we strive to achieve by being a member?

I touched on this on my other post, but I'm sorry, this rubs me the wrong way. 

My brother had a scout camp girlfriend in his teenager years. They went to different schools during the off-season, but fairly dated for several years. He went on his mission, she got engaged to someone else. She cancelled that wedding two weeks before it was to happen and zipped back to my brother when he returned from his mission. They dated a month, broke up, and they're both happily married to other people (we all still keep in touch).

"I will wait for you" is generally a dumb promise to make. Yes, we all have our cute stories of that one couple we know, but I don't think the average couple should be getting engaged over two years of a mission. As has been said already in this thread, you're young, you're still figuring out who you are. 

My brother and his camp girlfriend made no such promise. Their relationship went how it went, and all ended well. It might be for the best they didn't wind up together (and not just because my sister-in-law is an interior decorator who is going to help me with my kitchen.)

I don't think forcing a relationship is "dealing honestly with your fellow men." Even if some young doe-eyed girl makes a promise to wait for her missionary and marry him upon his return and winds up falling for another worthy young man (please feel free to change gender and  extended departure scenario as needed). She found someone else and broke up with a guy. It happens, and I don't think the mission scenario makes it any different or special than any other break-up scenario. Painful, perhaps very painful, but I don't know if it's temple unworthy dishonesty. 

Yes, waiting for a missionary sounds terribly romantic and gushy. But it's not realistic in a non-arranged marriage society. 

I'm married, but I would have hated to have my temple worthiness tied to waiting for a missionary. If I committed myself fully to every promise of marriage just because it was nice at the time, I'd still be waiting on a kid that moved in 3rd grade. 

 

 

Quote

the woman who only weeks earlier pledged to spend eternity with him

She hasn't pledged to spend eternity with him until they are kneeling across the alter and the ceremony is complete. 

Edited by Backroads
Eowyn, SilentOne and yjacket like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

10 minutes ago, Backroads said:

My brother had a scout camp girlfriend in his teenager years. They went to different schools during the off-season, but fairly dated for several years. He went on his mission, she got engaged to someone else. She cancelled that wedding two weeks before it was to happen and zipped back to my brother when he returned from his mission. They dated a month, broke up, and they're both happily married to other people (we all still keep in touch).

"I will wait for you" is generally a dumb promise to make. Yes, we all have our cute stories of that one couple we know, but I don't think the average couple should be getting engaged over two years of a mission. As has been said already in this thread, you're young, you're still figuring out who you are. 

I don't think forcing a relationship is "dealing honestly with your fellow men." Even if some young doe-eyed girl makes a promise to wait for her missionary and marry him upon his return and winds up falling for another worthy young man (please feel free to change gender and  extended departure scenario as needed). She found someone else and broke up with a guy. Painful, perhaps very painful, but I don't know if it's temple unworthy dishonesty. 

Dumb promise to make or not it is a promise. Regardless of how rashly it was made, you should still be expected to honor a commitment once it is made. And in a church that expects near perfection of its members (YSA or otherwise) in other aspects of their life and in other commitments (especially when those commitments are hard and have to be "forced"), I don't know why expecting a grown adult to keep this one is "unrealistic".

Painful, very painful is indeed the right words to describe this. And causing that much pain in another human being so you can get something you desire is the very definition of being un-Christlike.

She hasn't pledged to spend eternity with him until they are kneeling across the alter and the ceremony is complete. 

She did pledge to wait for him on his mission though. You don't need to be married to someone to make a commitment to them.

If I were to say, promise to help you move, that is a commitment. And if I just suddenly didn't show up because something better came along in the mean time, I would be a pretty big jerk. Cheating on someone who you are engaged to is exponentially worse.

 

Quote

First of all if getting a Dear John during a person's mission causes a Crisis of Faith then that person's faith is sorely misplaced.

The crisis of faith was actually my own, seeing such rampant cruel behavior among members being excused.

Edited by Lostboy289
NightSG likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lostboy, I understand what you are saying. I was thinking of some cultural issues that drive me nuta as well. I was going to share them on solidarity,  but realized that would likely make you feel worse.  So instead of doing that...I'll just share how I come to terms with it.

I have to go back to basics. So do I believe in God and Christ? Yes. Okay then do I believe the Book of Mormon is true? Yes. Then Joseph Smith? Yes. And so forth

 At some point I decide the church is true, but the culture is full of flaws. I pray for strength to focus on truth. I hope you will find a way to do the same. Hang in there.  

 

Edited by LiterateParakeet
Just_A_Guy and SilentOne like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

The crisis of faith was actually my own, seeing such rampant cruel behavior among members being excused.

Then your faith is sorely misplaced...  Christ needs to be the focus...  Not the actions of flawed foolish mortals...

And if a large part of people say and think that waiting for a missionary is a poor choice and unlikely to work...  Then when we are proven right we are not going to go off in a fit of righteous indignation (which is want you appear to want).  The best we are going to do is "I told you so, maybe next time you will listen"

yjacket and Backroads like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or maybe I just want someone to explain to me why a culture that sets standards for ourselves at near Christlike perfection, is so willing to let a major moral failing be not only excused, but embraced as part of the culture and even indirectly celebrated in the temple?

Edited by Lostboy289

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

She did pledge to wait for him on his mission though. You don't need to be married to someone to make a commitment to them.

No. You said she pledged to spend eternity with him.

 

13 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Dumb promise to make or not it is a promise. Regardless of how rashly it was made, you should still be expected to honor a commitment once it is made. And in a church that expects near perfection of its members (YSA or otherwise) in other aspects of their life and in other commitments (especially when those commitments are hard and have to be "forced"), I don't know why expecting a grown adult to keep this one is "unrealistic".

Are you seriously saying that no one can change their mind about an engagement? Are you seriously saying this? 

 

13 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

The crisis of faith was actually my own, seeing such rampant cruel behavior among members being excused.

I truly do think the Church culture should discourage serious talks of marriage prior to missions. 

But... what are people supposed to do after that? Forbid every person I know to change their minds concerning relationships?

Edited by Backroads
Eowyn, SilentOne, Just_A_Guy and 1 other like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Are you seriously saying that no one can change their mind about an engagement? Are you seriously saying this? 

For the record, @Backroads changed her mind about our engagement. In public no less. Worst Utah Jazz game I've ever been too 

zil, yjacket, Just_A_Guy and 1 other like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Or maybe I just want someone to explain to me why a culture that sets standards for ourselves at near Christlike perfection, is so willing to let a major moral failing be not only excused, but embraced as part of the culture and even indirectly celebrated in the temple?

You mean... when two worthy persons fall in love and are sealed in the temple even if one or both had a missionary once upon a time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lostboy289 said:

Or maybe I just want someone to explain to me why a culture that sets standards for ourselves at near Christlike perfection, is so willing to let a major moral failing be not only excused, but embraced as part of the culture and even indirectly celebrated in the temple?

You have been told this...  Commitment is marriage... not dating.

If you make a foolish commitment while dating... once you realize you have made a foolish commitment  we expect you to get yourself out.  Not sacrifice your eternal marriage, your eternal happiness and that of your spouse, and of your children.  Just so you can say "I kept a commitment I should have never made."

SilentOne and yjacket like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lostboy289 said:

I just don't get why this behavior is not only acceptable, but such a widespread thing among youth?

The behavior is acceptable because an engagement is a promise of intent, not a covenant. Marriage is a covenant. If a wife divorces her husband because he's deployed and she's tired of not having him home, that's immoral and unacceptable. But an engagement is not a marriage, and people are allowed to break their engagement at any time and for whatever reason they find compelling. It may be immature, it may be inconvenient, it may be inconsiderate. But it is not immoral.

As far as it being widespread, I haven't noticed it to be so. I did know a couple of elders in my mission who got Dear Johned, but in both cases they quickly got past it. In the end, they were happier, because they could devote themselves to the work without distraction.

yjacket, Eowyn, Backroads and 1 other like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Quote

No. You said she pledged to spend eternity with him.

She also promised to wait for him during his mission. That was actually what led to their engagement. I apologize if I didn't state that.

 

Quote

Are you seriously saying that no one can change their mind about an engagement? Are you seriously saying this?

I'm saying that it is morally wrong to mess around behind your SO's back and only then end the engagement because you realize that you like someone else better and have them locked down.

 

Quote

But... what are people supposed to do after that? Forbid every person I know to change their minds concerning relationships

I expect people to honor promises that they made regardless of who it is or how rashly it may have been made. If you realize the feelings are gone, the time for that discussion should come after the missionary returns, after that commitment you made has been honored.

It may be immature, it may be inconvenient, it may be inconsiderate. But it is not immoral.

I thought any cruelty to any human being for any selfish reason is immoral?

Edited by Lostboy289

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

If you realize the feelings are gone, the time for that discussion should come after the missionary returns, after that commitment you made has been honored.

I am in agreement with the rest of the post except for this part. I still don't think that's fair to either parties to have to wait so long. 

What real good does it do to have a missionary being engaged/pre-engaged (which is pretty much what waiting for a missionary is) for two years? 

Edited by Backroads

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but I just can't say that complete callousness towards another human's feelings is ok simply because I haven't made a binding covenant with them. That because we aren't married, anything is "fair game". Cruelty towards another person simply because they stand in the way of our happiness is not ok regardless of who they are.  Especially when leaders of the church state (I'm paraphrasing) "Any temple worthy man and woman can create a celestial marriage". If I can't honor my 2 year promises to someone, how am I expected to honor my eternal covenants to a person when a marriage gets difficult? Seems like it should be my problem to work through and get over, and eventually find my own happiness in the situation I created for myself.

 

Also I think I should say that I am a convert, and growing up in a non-Mormon society, engagements are definitely treated a lot more heavily. Out there, once you've chosen to marry someone you have already decided to be committed to them and barring some brand new piece of information about them (Cheating, drug use, revelation of a major life secret) you are pretty much expected to press ahead with it.

Edited by Lostboy289

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

If I can't honor my 2 year promises to someone, how am I expected to honor my eternal covenants to a person when a marriage gets difficult?

 

Exactly... Should not the Missionary that got Dear John'd really be happy that he learned about this aspect of her personality before he made eternal covenants with her?

And yet you seem to be demanding that we shame these people into keeping a commitment that they have shown they are not ready for. 

We can only hope that when they do make a covenant that they have matured a bit more, or at the very least found someone that they are willing to work with to become so.

Carborendum, my two cents and Vort like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now