Crisis of Faith - Dear John Letters

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

20 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't say that complete callousness towards another human's feelings is ok simply because I haven't made a binding covenant with them. That because we aren't married, anything is "fair game". Cruelty towards another person simply because they stand in the way of our happiness is not ok regardless of who they are. . .

Also I think I should say that I am a convert, and growing up in a non-Mormon society, engagements are definitely treated a lot more heavily. Out there, once you've chosen to marry someone you have already decided to be committed to them and barring some brand new piece of information about them (Cheating, drug use, revelation of a major life secret) you are pretty much expected to press ahead with it.

I liked your whole post, but these two points were especially good.

You reminded me that our Leaders also talk about the importance of keeping our word. Perhaps we need to do a better job of teaching young people that this concept applies to engagement. We do try to discourage them from getting into serious relationships, but as parents and leaders, I think you are right that we should do better.

Edited April 18, 2017 by LiterateParakeet

[Backroads]

16 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't say that complete callousness towards another human's feelings is ok simply because I haven't made a binding covenant with them. That because we aren't married, anything is "fair game". Cruelty towards another person simply because they stand in the way of our happiness is not ok regardless of who they are.  Especially when leaders of the church state (I'm paraphrasing) "Any temple worthy man and woman can create a celestial marriage". If I can't honor my 2 year promises to someone, how am I expected to honor my eternal covenants to a person when a marriage gets difficult? Seems like it should be my problem to work through and get over, and eventually find my own happiness in the situation I created for myself.

 

I have already made it clear I disagree on making such a promise. I guess I don't think people should be expected to give such weight to such dumb promises. 

I'd advise people to get out of dumb promises, but that's just me.

[NeuroTypical]

God designed our brains such, that the long-term decision-making centers don't stop maturing until we're in our mid-20's.

God designed our brains to learn stuff and discover things, and then deal with the things we've learned and discovered.

Therefore, since we've learned kids in their teens and early '20's just don't possess the ability to maturely make promises like this, we should deal with that fact, and not believe it when we hear it. 

If this topic needs to be about what's right and wrong, then it's wrong to believe teenagers when they promise to wait for you.  It is right to trust that they mean it when they say it, but that the may very well stop meaning it a week or month later. 

*shrug*.  It's how humans are built.  You'd might as well get upset at a riverbed if one year it rains so much, the river jumps it's course and forms another. 

[Lostboy289]

And I expect people to honor any promise, regardless of how small or how poorly it was thought out. But that's just me.

If I made a poor financial decision when I was 18, I wouldn't be allowed to get out of it simply because I didn't think it through before I made it. If I broke the law when I was 18, I would still face punishment even if I didn't fully realize the consequences of my actions. And in those cases we typically haven't drastically dealt a blow to someone's life.

There is one promise I have already made though. As a temple worthy priesthood holder I promised to be honest in my dealings with my fellow man and Christlike in my treatment of others. And as a child of God we have all in a way been made caretakers of our fellow man. We must realize that the effects we have on others is like throwing a rock into a pond, often rippling out beyond the initial splash of our own conscience. Occasionally with the ripples having profound effects on others, both positive and negative.

That goes even more so for people who we are in a position to truly devastate, like friends, family, and romantic partners. We are somewhat responsible for their well being, regardless if this is a responsibility we asked for or not.

I pray to be more in touch with those feelings. To think beyond my own contentment to the welfare of others. To find out if I have hurt them, even unintentionally, and if so, how to make it right.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Backroads]

4 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I liked your whole post, but these two points were especially good.

You reminded me that our Leaders also talk about the importance of keeping our word. Perhaps we need to do a better job of teaching young people that this concept applies to engagement. We do try to discourage them from getting into serious relationships, but as parents and leaders, I think you are right that we should do better.

 

"Young adult of mine, before you give this commitment, are you doing it out of reasonable determination and willingness to follow through, or are you doing it because sounds all sweet and romantic? Consider this before you give the commitment."

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Lostboy289 said:

And causing that much pain in another human being so you can get something you desire is the very definition of being un-Christlike.

I don't think so.

[Lostboy289]

5 minutes ago, Backroads said:

 

"Young adult of mine, before you give this commitment, are you doing it out of reasonable determination and willingness to follow through, or are you doing it because sounds all sweet and romantic? Consider this before you give the commitment."

The real issue is what do you do once you have already made it.

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Lostboy289 said:

The real issue is what do you do once you have already made it.

The same thing you do with any other mistake you find that you made... You repent.

The most correct thing to do is acknowledge the mistake, ask those affected to forgive you for making the mistake, and then move on and not do it again.

That is why repentance is given to us...

[Lostboy289]

24 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

God designed our brains such, that the long-term decision-making centers don't stop maturing until we're in our mid-20's.

God designed our brains to learn stuff and discover things, and then deal with the things we've learned and discovered.

Therefore, since we've learned kids in their teens and early '20's just don't possess the ability to maturely make promises like this, we should deal with that fact, and not believe it when we hear it. 

If this topic needs to be about what's right and wrong, then it's wrong to believe teenagers when they promise to wait for you.  It is right to trust that they mean it when they say it, but that the may very well stop meaning it a week or month later. 

*shrug*.  It's how humans are built.  You'd might as well get upset at a riverbed if one year it rains so much, the river jumps it's course and forms another. 

Sorry for the double post. Haven't quite figured out the quoting system on this board.

So why are they not biologically capable of making a promise to wait when they are 19, yet capable of making an enternal promise of marriage when they are 19.5 and dump their former boyfriend for a shiney new fiancé?

I wonder how much of this non-culpability for consequences is actually biological and how much is cultural, as this is really the first era in history that we don't expect people in their late teens/early 20s to be responsible for their actions.

Quote

The same thing you do with any other mistake you find that you made... You repent.

The most correct thing to do is acknowledge the mistake, ask those affected to forgive you for making the mistake, and then move on and not do it again.[/quote]

Which would be fine, but my whole point is that this typically isn't considered something that you have to repent for. In fact it usually the opposite, as a temple endowment in preparation for marriage usually comes quickly after this decision. People hardly bat an eyelash at it, regardless of what it may do to the person who was on the receiving end.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Lostboy289

[estradling75]

 

Quote

Which would be fine, but my whole point is that this typically isn't considered something that you have to repent for. People hardly bat an eyelash at it, regardless of what it may do to the person who was on the receiving end.

 

So you prefer us to brand her (and everyone) with a giant scarlet letter for whatever sin they engage in.  If you are not going be content until this woman that hurt your friend is publicly humiliated then please put on your letter first.

Last I checked lying is listed in the scriptures as a sin..  Last I check most instances of lying and other sins are not publicly called out.  This case is no different but you seem to insist that we treat it differently

[Lostboy289]

14 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 

So you prefer us to brand her (and everyone) with a giant scarlet letter for whatever sin they engage in.  If you are not going be content until this woman that hurt your friend is publicly humiliated then please put on your letter first.

Last I checked lying is listed in the scriptures as a sin..  Last I check most instances of lying and other sins are not publicly called out.  This case is no different but you seem to insist that we treat it differently

Oh please, that is a strawman argument and you know it.

Like any other sin, there is a huge difference between a scarlett letter, and culturally discouraging it to the point where the person feels obligated to go to the Bishop on their own and start the repentance process.

That's the thing. I don't expected to be treated differently. If a person took out a flask and started drinking during sacrament or fully admitted to  regularly breaking the law of chastity we wouldn't celebrate it or congratulate them for it.  I expect it to be treated just the same as any other sin. But it isn't. Its pretty much swept under the rug and forgotten about, with the injured parties encouraged to get over it quickly. In many cases they are even callously offered a wedding invitation, as if that won't make it worse.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Lostboy289

[estradling75]

Just now, Lostboy289 said:

Oh please, that is a strawman argument and you know it.

Like any other sin, there is a huge difference between a scarlett letter, and culturally discouraging it to the point where the person feels obligated to go to the Bishop on their own and start the repentance process.

That's the thing. I don't expected to be treated differently. I expect it to be treated just the same as any other sin. But it isn't. Its pretty much swept under the rug and forgotten about, with the injured parties encouraged to get over it quickly.

I sin every day... There are people effected and sometimes even hurt by my sins every day.  I don't go to the bishop's office every day to deal with my sins.  That is what repentance, prayer and the sacrament are for.  Most of the time no one calls me out on my sins directly (occasionally the person I hurt does), the church and other people simply discuss the general principles and allow me to govern myself (with the Lords help). This is the way the Lord set it up...  That is how we treat just about any sin... Now there a few exceptions (like Fornication and Adultery) that also require the Bishop or other church leader... But guess what... not waiting for a missionary after having promised to do so in not one of the sins that is considered exceptional no matter how much heartache in might cause a missionary...

[Vort]

I disagree with categorizing the breaking of an engagement as "a sin". Certainly, someone might sin in such an action. But an engagement can be broken with a pure heart and a clear conscience if someone decides (perhaps through a spiritual prompting, or perhaps just having talked with her mother) that she doesn't want to marry the guy any more.

[NightSG]

3 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

The real problem is getting too serious when you are too young.

I disagree; I see the same issues fairly often among adult singles.  It's a general lack of integrity at all ages.

Excuses like "I didn't promise" or "we're not married yet" are just looking for loopholes.  Even outside of relationships, a simple, "sure, I'll do that" leaves someone counting on you to do something, and all too often it's dismissed as simply as "I changed my mind."  Matthew 5:37 makes it clear that a Christian's simple statement should be as good as a solemn vow.  (And for the loophole seekers who claim that verse means nothing of the sort, https://devotional.byuh.edu/node/172 )  

[Lostboy289]

Quote

That is how we treat just about any sin... Now there a few exceptions (like Fornication and Adultery) that also require the Bishop or other church leader... But guess what... not waiting for a missionary after having promised to do so in not one of the sins that is considered exceptional no matter how much heartache in might cause a missionary...

So ruining a persons life isn't considered serious to you?

Devastating someone to their core, maybe to the point where they cannot trust someone for years? I know I still cannot fully trust people after mine.

And this is more than just the boy/girl who broke the promise. What about the third party here? Often it is a friend, a former companion, or even a family member of the hurt party. Heck, I would feel scummy doing this even if they had already broken up, let alone betraying them to move in on someone that was taken. Is betrayal of your fellow Brother or Sister because you saw something you wanted really not serious?

In my mind the seriousness of a sin is directly tied to the level of hurt is causes in others. The limits of our own conscience are not the benchmark here.

Quote

I disagree with categorizing the breaking of an engagement as "a sin". Certainly, someone might sin in such an action. But an engagement can be broken with a pure heart and a clear conscience if someone decides (perhaps through a spiritual prompting, or perhaps just having talked with her mother) that she doesn't want to marry the guy any more.

Even if he/she came to that conclusion after messing around with someone else? Even after you promised someone something, regardless of how eternal that promise was? I thought lying was a sin at all levels? Betrayal too?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Backroads]

22 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

That's the thing. I don't expected to be treated differently. If a person took out a flask and started drinking during sacrament or fully admitted to  regularly breaking the law of chastity we wouldn't celebrate it or congratulate them for it.  I expect it to be treated just the same as any other sin. But it isn't. Its pretty much swept under the rug and forgotten about, with the injured parties encouraged to get over it quickly. In many cases they are even callously offered a wedding invitation, as if that won't make it worse.

Let me get this straight:

Breaking up with a non-spouse, even a fiance but still a non-spouse, is something that requires the bishop.

Is that what you're saying?

I'm sorry, but matters of the heart are generally outside of my circle of influence. I'm not going to stick my nose into that business and I am certainly not going to scold some acquaintance about ending a relationship and starting another. 

You speak of past generations of being so much more committed in their pre-marriage relationships. I daresay you are looking at that through rose-colored glasses and probably a more than romantic view of history rather than the truth.

58 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

The real issue is what do you do once you have already made it.

Consider it less than the commitment of marriage.

Putting marriage and waiting for a missionary on the same level cheapens the value of eternal marriage. 

I can go in with sorrow and apology, but no, I don't think anyone should be expected to actually wait for a missionary unless they are actually married. They certainly shouldn't be punished for it.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

So ruining a persons life isn't considered serious to you?

OK, I'm going to assume you were young and madly in love, as most of us have been at some point, and I'm sorry for your pain, but breaking off an engagement does not ruin someone's life.  One may choose to react to this sad event in ways which then ruin one's own life, but it's not like we're talking about physically removing another person's legs, or giving them a lobotomy.  Yeah, heartache sucks, but it's a choice whether to get over it and get on with life.

PS: Would it not be just as serious a sin to lie, pretend like you were still in love, still communicating with the missionary until he returns and then, after 2 years of anticipation (instead of 2 months), you say, "Oh, I was just pretending so-as not to hurt your feelings until you got back - I haven't been in love with you for about 22 months now, bye."

Once the feelings are gone, the best thing is to be open and truthful about it and move on.

(And yes I'm in the camp of, "Holy youthful foolishness, Batman! Don't let these kids get that serious in the first place.")

[Guest]

My first love broke my heart. Crushed it. Ground it into a million pieces and then desiccated it with his indifference toward my pain.

It was one of the hardest times of my life. It was right around the age of mission calls and going off to school and ill-advised promises. The hurt lasted a long, long time... and trust was sadly something I didn't learn until awhile after I married a good man (good and patient, obviously... and I am so thankful for him). 

During that time, one of the many naive attitudes I had was that he had deeply wronged me and would have to pay for it one day. I almost relished the thought. 

Guess who that hurt most? Not him.

Many years later and almost having children that age, here is what I see: he was a boy. He made a lot of promises he thought he was ready for, and then changed his mind. Did it hurt me? Certainly yes. Do I hope he has to pay for it one day? No! I look at my own kids trying to find their way, and while I try to teach them not to make my mistakes (letting my heart get wrapped around someone before either of us is ready for it), I also see that they feel deeply and act impulsively and learn by making dumb mistakes.

Heaven forbid I be punished for the dumb things I did when I was young. I learned, I grew up, I do better. Such is the way with all of us.

Forgive the girl who hurt you, let go of hopes of retribution for her and others who have broken young hearts, and hold on to hope that usually the reason things like this happen is because there is something far, far better suited to who you will grow to be, and Heavenly Father already knows that. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Eowyn

[Lostboy289]

9 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Let me get this straight:

Breaking up with a non-spouse, even a fiance but still a non-spouse, is something that requires the bishop.

Is that what you're saying?

It depends on how it his done. And if the breakup is done after screwing around with his good friend behind his back, after she promised to wait for him and marry him; than yes, that is a pretty darn bad one.

Quote

I'm sorry, but matters of the heart are generally outside of my circle of influence. I'm not going to stick my nose into that business and I am certainly not going to scold some acquaintance about ending a relationship and starting another. 

There is a vast difference between getting in that person's business and privately condemning it, or even celebrating it. I'm not going to confront a member if I catch them smoking, but I sure as heck am not going to congratulate them for it.

Quote

Consider it less than the commitment of marriage.

Putting marriage and waiting for a missionary on the same level cheapens the value of eternal marriage. 

And saying the only commitments that matter are the eternal ones cheapens the value of all commitments, including eternal ones.

"Do what's best for you" should never, ever be the attitude we take towards our fellow brothers and sisters.

Quote

PS: Would it not be just as serious a sin to lie, pretend like you were still in love, still communicating with the missionary until he returns and then, after 2 years of anticipation (instead of 2 months), you say, "Oh, I was just pretending so-as not to hurt your feelings until you got back - I haven't been in love with you for about 22 months now, bye."

Yes, actually I would prefer that to being cheated on.

[NightSG]

15 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

In my mind the seriousness of a sin is directly tied to the level of hurt is causes in others.

"Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

"Do what's best for you" should never, ever be the attitude we take towards our fellow brothers and sisters.

When it comes to choosing our eternal companions, it absolutely is.

Cheating isn't okay, lying isn't okay, and those should be repented of. But let's not get melodramatic and say that outside of a marriage, those things are ruining a life. Hurting and derailing, yes, but not ruining.

 

And remember that a primary function of Christ's Atonement is easing and fixing hurts and injustices that happen to us. But to allow Him to do that, we have to hand the burden to Him, include concerns of what will happen to the other person or how it should be "made right". That is for Him to decide, in His perfect knowledge and mercy.

[estradling75]

10 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

So ruining a persons life isn't considered serious to you?

Devastating someone to their core, maybe to the point where they cannot trust someone for years? I know I still cannot fully trust people after mine.

And this is more than just the boy/girl who broke the promise. What about the third party here? Often it is a friend, a former companion, or even a family member of the hurt party. Heck, I would feel scummy doing this even if they had already broken up, let alone betraying them to move in on someone that was taken. Is betrayal of your fellow Brother or Sister because you saw something you wanted really not serious?

In my mind the seriousness of a sin is directly tied to the level of hurt is causes in others. The limits of our own conscience are not the benchmark here.

Even if he/she came to that conclusion after messing around with someone else? Even after you promised someone something, regardless of how eternal that promise was? I thought lying was a sin at all levels? Betrayal too?

Ahh so now we see the real issue... Its not about someone else's sin...  Its about you and your friend being unable to forgive and let it go.

Here is a scripture for you

D&C 64

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

The atonement means that justice and punishment for ALL sins is in the hands of the Lord not in ours. 

This scripture is a hard thing that the Lord commands of us... but make no mistake it is a command.

In the next verse Lord tells is exactly what he means by forgive.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

Please note nowhere does the Lord condition this commandment on someone else repenting first

Basically he commands us to trust him and turn it over to him.  Until you do, until your friend does you both will be ruining your own lives because you have not followed the Lord's instructions.

[NightSG]

18 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Breaking up with a non-spouse, even a fiance but still a non-spouse, is something that requires the bishop.

Is that what you're saying?

Ending a relationship that has gotten to the point of engagement, especially without substantial fault from the other person, is hardly the sort of thing one should relegate to a coin toss.  Consulting with priesthood leadership seems like a pretty logical step when making what should be a significant and difficult decision.

15 minutes ago, zil said:

PS: Would it not be just as serious a sin to lie, pretend like you were still in love, still communicating with the missionary until he returns and then, after 2 years of anticipation (instead of 2 months), you say, "Oh, I was just pretending so-as not to hurt your feelings until you got back - I haven't been in love with you for about 22 months now, bye."

There's not a good way to handle it, but letters certainly allow for honest discussion well in advance of the missionary's return, and there's a huge difference between "I've been having second thoughts about our engagement" and letting the discussion progress where it may from there, and an out of the blue "been dating someone else for a while and now we're engaged."  Sure, it may take a couple months to arrive at a mutual decision via postal mail, but if you can't wait that long to start dating someone new, is the new guy really Mr Right, or just Mr Right Now?

[Lostboy289]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

Ahh so now we see the real issue... Its not about someone else's sin...  Its about you and your friend being unable to forgive and let it go.

Forgiveness is not an issue. The matter in question happened 2 years ago and last time I checked he was doing fine. I've moved away since then so I don't really talk to him much though.

My problem is the fact that this is so widespread. That my friends story is just a drop in an ocean of pain we are causing each other. As we all come to this church to be more Christ-like and love one another more, we are hurting eachother in just about the worst ways a person can. And looking for loopholes to justify it. That it is so engrained in our culture that it is almost a benchmark of the missionary experience.

Quote

When it comes to choosing our eternal companions, it absolutely is.

But how we go about it isn't. Ending a relationship is not a sin. How we end it can be. I don't care if a person is a stranger on the street or my best friend. Callousness towards the hurt we cause someone is a sin.

[Guest]

So the consensus is engagement is the point of no return, when, while it may not be technically sinful to end a relationship, it certainly isn't a very nice thing to do?  But before engagement it is not necessarily wrong to break it off if it isn't working?

I could agree with that.

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by DoctorLemon