Crisis of Faith - Dear John Letters

[Guest]

I think on the list of things in church culture that need to be changed, this one is pretty far down.

[Lostboy289]

5 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

You act like the church never talks about honesty or kindness. The rest is up to us to figure out, and in that figuring, people make mistakes. Especially in their youth.

Again... please listen to what people are saying... no one is saying it's great to cheat on someone you're attached to. What they are saying is that there is no covenant made when a girl says she'll wait for a missionary, or even when she says she'll marry a guy. Yes, the right thing to do would be breaking it off with him before taking up with someone else, but AGAIN, most missionaries encourage girls to date while they're gone.

As for whether this should be made a specific issue to preach over the pulpit and whatnot:

Apparently it does need to be addressed, because of how widespread this problem is. I am fully aware of the scripture you are quoting, I just don't think it applies here when there is so clearly a problem. And this thread has only confirmed it to me.

I also want to state that I think that this discussion has been so focused on the girl who cheated here. As far as I'm concerned, the friend of this guy who stole her away is also just as guilty of something pretty horrible. Seems like a serious violation of common decency and integrity to go after your friend's/ former companion's/ brother's girl.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Lostboy289 said:

problem

In your opinion.

If you think it's so awful, talk to people who can do something about it. Counsel with your local leaders.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

14 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

I just said that even coming forward and stating during a sacrament talk or conference that we have a responsibility for the feelings of those we are close to. Even just creating a culture where members know that this isn't acceptable is enough.

If you search on 'kindness' on lds.org there is a whole boatload of GC talks on being kind, including one by President Monson given a couple of weeks ago.  Just because one person's feelings are hurt however doesn't mean that the other person is somehow in the wrong.  The breakup of a relationship usually always hurts somebody to one degree or another, but you can't say nobody is allowed to break up if the other person's feelings will be hurt by it.  You will likely wind up breaking up with some girl down the road and hurting her feelings too.  It's just part of life.  As long as nobody lied or cheated or set out to deliberately be cruel there is no sin to it.

[estradling75]

25 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Id like to weed out cultural acceptance of

 

How?... Put some rubber to the road already and define how you would do this... or realize that that you don't have a clue and be honest about it.

The culture the Church has been trying to establish is one of Zion.  That is the goal Christ has for us, its the goal the Church leaders have clearly and repeatedly talked about (along with Honesty and Integrity) for over 200 years now.

The fact that you appear to be pretty clearly hurting and venting does not change the fact that the church is doing and is acting to try to get its members to become Zion.

 

25 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Privately I was called out by the Bishop when I confessed what I had done.

 

Funny how when I asked you repeatedly what the church did you never mentioned it. Until after I laid it out for you

 

But Ok where is your proof that the Bishop did not privately call the girl out?  By the definition of private you have none... just your imagination of what you think happened or did not happen.

 

14 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

I just said that even coming forward and stating during a sacrament talk or conference that we have a responsibility for the feelings of those we are close to. Even just creating a culture where members know that this isn't acceptable is enough.

Have paid attention to conference at all?  there are tons of talks about such things...

And once again you want a cultural change.  So explain how to would effectively alter the culture, with out violating agency or the requirements the Lord laid down in 121 concerning leadership actions.   When you seriously and truthfully ponder how you can change the cultural within those divine limits you will find that the church is doing exactly that if you are willing to seriously and honesty look at it

 

[Lostboy289]

9 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Have paid attention to conference at all?  there are tons of talks about such things...

And once again you want a cultural change.  So explain how to would effectively alter the culture, with out violating agency or the requirements the Lord laid down in 121 concerning leadership actions.   When you seriously and truthfully ponder how you can change the cultural within those divine limits you will find that the church is doing exactly that if you are willing to seriously and honesty look at it

 

Have you paid attention to what ive said at all?

A conference talk specifically addressing this matter, and not just kindness or integrity in general. The problem is that people cannot see this situation as a natural extension of those two principals.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Latter-Day Marriage]

2 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

As far as I'm concerned, the friend of this guy who stole her away is also just as guilty of something pretty horrible. Seems like a serious violation of common decency and integrity to go after your friend's/ former companion's/ brother's girl.

She wasn't married to anybody so she didn't belong to anybody and nobody 'stole' her.  You can't get that possessive about a girlfriend. She has every right to choose to end one relationship and start another up.  I don't know if that guy deliberately set out to win her over or if it happened organically, but either way that is not a sin either, she was single and so was he. President Hinckley won his wife over when she was dating another guy as I recall.

Now if he lied to her and deceived her to try and win her over, that would be wrong.  Somebody actually tried to do that with my girlfriend (now wife) while I was on my mission but he wasn't a good liar thankfully.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

5 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

A conference talk specifically addressing this matter, and not just kindness or integrity in general.

What exactly do you see as 'this matter'?  How and when to break up with somebody? 

[Lostboy289]

So there is no middle ground between single and married? That anyone is fair game to poach away from their current S.O. just as long as they aren't married? Even if their S.O. is a close friend or family of yours?

Quote

What exactly do you see as 'this matter'?  How and when to break up with somebody? 

Apparently in general callousness towards one another when it comes to romantic matters. That the same christlike ideals we are expected to maintain in every other aspect of our lives needs to be brought into the dating world as well.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

So there is no middle ground between single and married? That anyone is fair game to poach away from their current S.O. just as long as they aren't married?

Yep. 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Lostboy289 said:

So there is no middle ground between single and married? That anyone is fair game to poach away from their current S.O. just as long as they aren't married?

Hmmm. Given that stark choice, I guess I would have to say yes to the questions above.

[Backroads]

2 hours ago, Lostboy289 said:

I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I get what you are saying, but at the same time I can't just bring myself to say that a promise made to someone should be disregarded when it becomes inconvenient or we realize we acted hastily in making it. Especially when feelings as deep as this are on the line. And this goes for any promises. To me, they are incredibly sacred.

And while prevention is great, it doesn't really solve the problem at hand any more than the existence of birth control solves the abortion debate for non-members. Prevention is always the best defense, but what happens when that fails and you actually find yourself there?

 

Okay, what exactly do you want? 

Girls to marry guys simply so they don't hurt their feelings?

A conference talk to specifically say you should always wait for a missionary?

A conference talk to remind us we are all special snowflakes who can't handle the ups and downs of the battlefield of love?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Backroads said:

A conference talk to specifically say you should always wait for a missionary?

It'll be a long wait for that one.

[Lostboy289]

 

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

Hmmm. Given that stark choice, I guess I would have to say yes to the questions above.

Wow, I can honestly say that I am incredibly, truly disturbed at hearing this.

I figured this would have been an easy to establish common ground.

I really cannot believe that no one sees absolutely nothing wrong with deciding you want a friends' girl or boyfriend, and then to try and get them to dump your friend and be with them.

When even "The Bro Code" sets a higher standard for loyalty towards your friends than the Mormon Religion, something is horribly, terribly wrong.

 

Also can you guys all please tone it the heck down. You are being very antagonistic and rude.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Latter-Day Marriage]

4 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

So there is no middle ground between single and married? That anyone is fair game to poach away from their current S.O. just as long as they aren't married? Even if their S.O. is a close friend or family of yours?

Apparently in general callousness towards one another when it comes to romantic matters. That the same christlike ideals we are expected to maintain in every other aspect of our lives needs to be brought into the dating world as well.

That's right.  It is fair to try and win over anyone of the opposite sex as long as you are both single and not using deception.  Now if you try that with somebody who is the SO of somebody close to you, you have to take into account the impact on that relationship, but it is still an option.  That isn't being callous, that is finding the best mate you can.  Do you want a wife who wants you above every other man, or who has no other choice than you because nobody else will try for her?

[Lostboy289]

As far as most people are concerned if you are in a Boyfriend/Girlfriend relationship, if you are committed to another person, or if you are engaged, you are not single.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Latter-Day Marriage]

5 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

 

Wow, I can honestly say that I am incredibly, truly disturbed at hearing this.

I figured this would have been an easy to establish common ground.

I really cannot believe that no one sees absolutely nothing wrong with deciding you want a friends' girl or boyfriend, and then to try and get them to dump your friend and be with them.

When even "The Bro Code" sets a higher standard for loyalty towards your friends than the Mormon Religion, something is horribly, terribly wrong.

The Bro Code puts male friendship above all other relationships, that isn't right.  One of the most important things in life is to marry the right person at the right time in the right place. 

Also, you can't make somebody dump their current SO, they do that if they themselves make a choice that their current SO is not as good an option as somebody else.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Latter-Day Marriage

[Latter-Day Marriage]

1 minute ago, Lostboy289 said:

As far as most people are concerned if you are in a Boyfriend/Girlfriend relationship, you are not single.

Single as in 'not married'.  Let's not make this about semantics.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

I really cannot believe that no one sees absolutely nothing wrong with deciding you want a friends' girl or boyfriend, and then to try and get them to dump your friend and be with them.

I don't think anyone has said they see nothing wrong with intentionally going out to poach your buddy's S.O. What people have been saying in unison is that you can break an engagement if you don't want to marry your fiancé(e), and you can marry someone else instead if you want to, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that. Engagement is not a moral obligation to marry; it is an announcement of present intent.

2 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

Also can you guys all please tone it the heck down. You are being very antagonistic and rude.

Not sure where you think I've been either antagonistic or rude to you.

2 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

As far as most people are concerned if you are in a Boyfriend/Girlfriend relationship, you are not single.

As far as most people are concerned, if you are unmarried and want to sleep with that unmarried gal over there, go for it. But we don't base our moral actions on what most people might happen to believe.

If you are married, then you are not single. If you are unmarried, then you are single. This holds true even for boyfriend/girlfriend or fiancé/fiancée. It's that simple.

[Backroads]

11 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

You can't get that possessive about a girlfriend. She has every right to choose to end one relationship and start another up. 

@Lostboy289, this addresses a theme I have noticed from you in this thread. I assume you do not mean to sound controlling, but all your worry has been for the breakup-ee and not for whoever ends the relationship. That's fine, but you seem to suggest the other person's feelings don't matter, that only the guy's happiness (to keep the usual gender balance of this thread) matters until he is no longer interested in the relationship.

You say dating and engagement is different outside the church. That's fine, but within the church we have a more old-fashioned dating culture,  at least within the Mormon corridor. I guess it's a little more cutthroat, but there it is. Until marriage or otherwise declaration of devoted relationship, dating is fair game. We avoid cohabitation. This makes different dynamics. You may be used to a culture where much of what we see as marital devotion might exist prior to marriage, simply because with marriage being optional more loyalty is needed in a dating relationship. Instead, we tend to see dating as a way to choose a marriage partner... with both parties being free to change their minds prior to marriage. You might be used to marriage on more of a spectrum, thus wanting greater loyalty earlier on.

So to some of us here, being so possessive of a gal you're not married to seems rather... extreme.

It's probably just a culture thing, but there it is.

[Lostboy289]

Its not semantics or that simple, there is a massive difference there. There is a world of difference between single  (unattached) and single (relationship or engaged)

If I see a girl I like who is single (completely unattached) and want to get to know her, that is ok.

If I see a girl I like who is single but a friend of mine likes her and is currently pursuing her, id be a bit of a jerk if I went for it. At the very least a grey area that id talk to him about first.

If I decide I like my friend's girlfriend, and make a pass at her id be a massive tool and lose the friendship.

If I make a pass at my friend's fiancé and she decides to leave him for me, id be a social pariah and have ruined his life.

Quote

One of the most important things in life is to marry the right person at the right time in the right place. 

The girl your friend plans to marry is neither.

Quote

That's fine, but within the church we have a more old-fashioned dating culture,  at least within the Mormon corridor. I guess it's a little more cutthroat, but there it is. Until marriage or otherwise declaration of devoted relationship, dating is fair game. We avoid cohabitation. This makes different dynamics. You may be used to a culture where much of what we see as marital devotion might exist prior to marriage, simply because with marriage being optional more loyalty is needed in a dating relationship. Instead, we tend to see dating as a way to choose a marriage partner... with both parties being free to change their minds prior to marriage. You might be used to marriage on more of a spectrum, thus wanting greater loyalty earlier on.

So to some of us here, being so possessive of a gal you're not married to seems rather... extreme.

That's a fair point. Outside of Mormon culture you are correct. A "spectrum" is a very accurate way to refer to it. With the level of commitment and loyalty of both partners increasing as the relationship gets deeper, culminating in marriage. Marriage is still a significant benchmark, but one that once arrived at seems more of a natural evolution that has been built up to rather than a binary.

At the very least, complete fidelity is expected once you become exclusive. And any decent individual is expected to honor that fidelity. Trying to get your friend's girl to cheat on or leave them for you is usually grounds for an immediate termination of the friendship by everyone you know.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Lostboy289

[Backroads]

13 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

As far as most people are concerned if you are in a Boyfriend/Girlfriend relationship, if you are committed to another person, or if you are engaged, you are not single.

Sure, but these relationships can still be broken up by either partner. And yes, the reasons include romantic interest in a different person.

[Backroads]

One last question: @Lostboy289, how do you think a person should go about ending a relationship?

[Latter-Day Marriage]

1 minute ago, Lostboy289 said:

Its not semantics or that simple, there is a massive difference there. There is a world of difference between single  (unattached) and single (relationship or engaged)

If I see a girl I like who is single (completely unattached) and want to get to know her, that is ok.

If I see a girl I like who is single but a friend of mine likes her and is currently pursuing her, id be a bit of a jerk if I went for it.

If I decide I like my friend's girlfriend, and make a pass at her id be a massive tool and lose the friendship.

If I make a pass at my friend's fiancé and she decides to leave him for me, id be a social pariah and have ruined his life.

The girl your friend plans to marry is neither.

Oh I certainly agree that going after the girlfriend of somebody close to you will have consequences.  I'm just saying it isn't a sin.  It could very well be that the one for you happens to be dating a friend of yours when you first meet her.  Just by spending time with your friend you wind up spending time with her and she comes to realize her feelings for you are stronger than her feelings for your friend and you come to realize you love her too.  So she leaves him for you.  Painful for him, yes, but not immoral.  Or, same situation but when you meet her the spirit tells you she is the one so you actively set out to win her over.  Also painful but not immoral, and temporarily (or permanently) it may affect your friendship with him, but marrying the right one is a higher priority.

Breakups like that are part of life.  People have to learn to deal with it, it's part of the game all over the place.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Lostboy289 said:

ruined his life

No.