3 Mormons: Feminism


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Kwaku and Ian of the 3 Mormons introduce special guest Elisabeth to discuss the implications of feminism for the LDS Church. Kwaku first talks about radical feminists and how they aren’t necessary a good representation of what feminism truly is. Instead of looking at the bad, we need to embrace all that is good in feminism. Women in leadership is among the good things and is also very prominent in the Church. Emma Smith was a powerful example of women leaders. And today, there are many women leaders who have a strong voice in the Church. Ian says that ultimately, the Church advocates equality for women. Elisabeth says that in some regards, men should need to shape up. They shouldn’t be doing things that objectify women. Kwaku and Ian both say that it’s belittling to men to say that they can’t control their passions. Elisabeth says that being a mom is so important, but if a woman wants to be in the workforce, she should do so and she shouldn’t be held...

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1 hour ago, ldsnet said:

we need to embrace all that is good in feminism. Women in leadership is among the good things and is also very prominent in the Church. Emma Smith was a powerful example of women leaders.

There is nothing good in feminism.  The feminist movement, by definition, is not good.

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And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is. (Moroni 10:6)

Feminism is contributory to the societal decline of the family, and as a result the decline of righteousness in the United States.  Feminism is not about equality or justice, it is about power and control.

Women in leadership in the Church has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or the feminist movement, such a notion is completely false.  The fact that Emma Smith was an influential leader is evidence of this, as her leadership and position was inspired by God long before the feminist movement came to be.

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By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. (The Family: A Proclamation to the World)

While women are and should be able to enter the work force, this should be a well thought out and prayerful decision (in righteous counsel with their spouse if married), rather than the norm that feminism wants it to be.  There is place for women in the work force without the modern feminist movement.  Feminism is anti-women, it specifically seeks to degrade a woman's sacred role as a mother.  'By their fruits ye shall know them'.

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To be blunt, this is the typical teenage/young adult, "progressive", immature LDS take on the issue. Rah! Rah! Women are awesome! Go Women!

Whatever.

People like this will eventually grow up, and many of them will add nuance to their views, perhaps even understanding the stupidity of much of what they chanted as youth. Until then, our duty is to put up with their ignorance and that youthful idea that They Alone have discovered the point of view that all their foolish elders never figured out all these years. I mean, let's face it, we were all there once, and most of us are still there in some way or another.

What is not our duty is to give public forums for them to voice such foolishness. I'm thinking MormonHub should exercise a bit of editorial control over such articles. Honestly, it's a little embarrassing to read drek like this on a site that calls itself "MormonHub".

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6 minutes ago, Vort said:

I'm thinking MormonHub should exercise a bit of editorial control over such articles. Honestly, it's a little embarrassing to read drek like this on a site that calls itself "MormonHub".

I have thought this on several articles.

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2 hours ago, ldsnet said:

Elisabeth says that being a mom is so important, but if a woman wants to be in the workforce, she should do so and she shouldn’t be held   back. If a woman wants to be a stay-at-home mom, she should be equally encouraged as those who are in the work force.

What a lie; more rationalization of the notion that "do whatever you want, it's okay".  Stay-at-home mom is not the same goodness of a decision as a working mother.  No ifs ands or buts the ideal and the way God designed families is for the husband to provide and for the wife to nurture. To declare otherwise or even make them equivalent is a lie.  I understand that some women might have to work due to life circumstances and that's okay-but the ideal and what we should strive for should not be that "it's okay whichever way you choose."

The article dogs on men and says they need to step up, yet where is the counter that feminism needs to step up and stop this lie that a woman can do whatever she wants with her body b/c it "empowers" her? Belittling to men that they can't control their passions?? Well you know what there are two sides to every coin. If you didn't have women who sold their bodies to cameras and magazines and had more self-respect . . .

Oh but yeah that's right, men are expected to control their passions when they see beautiful half-naked or naked women at every step of the way-go to the movies, watch news, shoot just watch ABC and they have simulated sex as the camera fades away.  And don't give me the beach story as most women at the beach in bikinis are not exactly paragons of beauty. And instead of saying women should respect their bodies, men are supposed to control their emotions.

Here is a brilliant idea, why don't we admit we live in a decadent society and good men and women of God are just trying to do their best to live their live's morally rather than beat up on one sex or the other.

Edited by yjacket
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Guest Godless
45 minutes ago, person0 said:

There is nothing good in feminism.  The feminist movement, by definition, is not good.

You're right. It's only brought about voting rights, attitudes and policies that discourage sexual harassment and sexual assault, and advancements towards labor equality. All things that we should have left well enough alone.

45 minutes ago, person0 said:

Feminism is contributory to the societal decline of the family, and as a result the decline of righteousness in the United States.  Feminism is not about equality or justice, it is about power and control.

You could make a strong case that this statement applies to radical feminism. But if you read the OP, you would know that radical feminism isn't what we're talking about here. In an age when the parental rights and academic careers of convicted rapists are sought to be protected, we still need feminism. In an age when women are judged for choosing school and careers over parenthood (and the opposite, to be fair), we still need feminism. 

45 minutes ago, person0 said:

While women are and should be able to enter the work force, this should be a well thought out and prayerful decision (in righteous counsel with their spouse if married), rather than the norm that feminism wants it to be.  There is place for women in the work force without the modern feminist movement.  Feminism is anti-women, it specifically seeks to degrade a woman's sacred role as a mother.  'By their fruits ye shall know them'.

I was raised by a SAH mother, so I'll be the last person to judge a woman for choosing that. If a woman feels that it's her calling in life (or religious duty, if you prefer) to be a full-time mother, then more power to her. Feminism (minus the radical nutjobs) seeks the same attitudes for those who choose to lead fulfilling careers instead, or those who try to balance careers with motherhood. The notion that a woman's place is in the home is a dying one, for better or worse. There's nothing wrong with a woman holding on to that mentality, but the days of men dictating what is and isn't becoming of the female gender are over. 

Something else to ponder is the LDS stance on pornography. Put that into a secular context and it reeks of feminism, the idea that women are precious souls to be treasured, not exploited for sexual gratification. But the porn and human trafficking industries continue to flourish because of the corruptive impulses of men. I imagine no one here will say that we shouldn't try to reduce the demand for such things by changing the attitudes of the men who drive such demand. In fact, I believe I recall hearing exactly such a thing preached from the Tabernacle every six months in the days of my youth. Point being, feminism isn't just about "all equal everything". It's about breaking destructive social constructs that have had very real and very damaging effects on women for centuries. 

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

...What is not our duty is to give public forums for them to voice such foolishness. I'm thinking MormonHub should exercise a bit of editorial control over such articles. Honestly, it's a little embarrassing to read drek like this on a site that calls itself "MormonHub".

It appears that younger Mormons, MormonHub and The More Good Foundation are more open minded and reasonable with their thoughts on feminism.

M.

Edited by Maureen
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10 minutes ago, Maureen said:

It appears that younger Mormons, MormonHub and The More Good Foundation are more open minded and reasonable with their thoughts on feminism.

M.

Open minded, sure. Which isn't good or bad. It just...is.

Reasonable though? Well, that needs more support than just a claim. Reason isn't just acceptance of any old whatever.

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Considering how often I crossed paths with Kristi Winters herself back on Beliefnet, I find myself rather bemused by the notion that anyone can think feminism as is practiced in the West is anything but a gender supremacy movement. 

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\

On 4/21/2017 at 5:34 PM, Godless said:

. The notion that a woman's place is in the home is a dying one, for better or worse. There's nothing wrong with a woman holding on to that mentality, but the days of men dictating what is and isn't becoming of the female gender are over.

Amen, and good riddance to those days. I want my daughter to dream about growing up to be president, an astronaut, a mom, whatever she wants.

I'm not sure what the real hardcore anti-feminist people want to accomplish. Go back to when women didn't have the option to work outside the home? Good luck with that. 

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53 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

\

Amen, and good riddance to those days. I want my daughter to dream about growing up to be president, an astronaut, a mom, whatever she wants.

I'm not sure what the real hardcore anti-feminist people want to accomplish. Go back to when women didn't have the option to work outside the home? Good luck with that. 

There is a baby Gator? Truly? 

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

\

Amen, and good riddance to those days. I want my daughter to dream about growing up to be president, an astronaut, a mom, whatever she wants.

I'm not sure what the real hardcore anti-feminist people want to accomplish. Go back to when women didn't have the option to work outside the home? Good luck with that. 

It depends upon who you're talking about and what you mean by "hardcore". 

Many of the more prominent voices I've seen who stand in opposition to Western feminism are focusing on the sins of the movement and its key figures, the goal being to expose the corruption, ignorance, and even outright gender supremacy that many of them display. 

If it says anything, it's pretty much taken for granted that anyone who claims to be a "male feminist" is either afraid of women, hoping it'll help them meet women, or a wolf in sheep's clothing... simply because that's been the case for so many of them over the years. That's how bad the movement is. 

And when we get to ladies like Kristi Winters, all bets are off. There's more evidence to suggest that she was behind the doxxing of one of her major critics than there is to suggest a Trump / Russia conspiracy, for crying out loud. 

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I want my daughter to dream about growing up to be president, an astronaut, a mom, whatever she wants.

And thus the destruction of society  . . . I want my daughters growing up to believe that the most important job they can and will ever do is raising a righteous generation. Nothing, they do in life will ever come close to that monumental, sacred task. I want my son to grow up believing the most important job he can ever have is to lead his family in righteousness towards God.  That no job he will ever do will make up for a lack of him being a proper leader, mentor, provider in his family.

The above is (and I don't mean offense MG) is the modern secular humanistic view of the world-that it is important to do something "great", that being whatever you want is good.

Except that every single one of us will die at some point-life is very, very short and very transitory.  God cares not if we are "great men/women" in the eyes of the world. God cares whether we have done our best to learn to become like Him and whether we have learned the right lessons on this Earth.  And those lessons do not include "being whatever you want to be" but "how do I emulate my Savior more and then how do I teach that to others?".

I work to provide for my family-not for the praise and gain of the world.  It is a difference of world-view.  One is very secular and humanistic; the other is a focus on the things of God.

Edited by yjacket
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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, yjacket said:

(and I don't mean offense MG) i

None taken my friend. Understand totally where you are coming from. 

16 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

It depends upon who you're talking about and what you mean by "hardcore". 

Many of the more prominent voices I've seen who stand in opposition to Western feminism are focusing on the sins of the movement and its key figures, the goal being to expose the corruption, ignorance, and even outright gender supremacy that many of them display. 

If it says anything, it's pretty much taken for granted that anyone who claims to be a "male feminist" is either afraid of women, hoping it'll help them meet women, or a wolf in sheep's clothing... simply because that's been the case for so many of them over the years. That's how bad the movement is. 

And when we get to ladies like Kristi Winters, all bets are off. There's more evidence to suggest that she was behind the doxxing of one of her major critics than there is to suggest a Trump / Russia conspiracy, for crying out loud. 

Understand totally you too! 

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Guest MormonGator
6 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Except that every single one of us will die at some point

"All men are mortal, but I always thought an exception would be made in my case."-William Saroyan 

Edited by MormonGator
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3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I want my daughter to dream about growing up to be president, an astronaut, a mom, whatever she wants.

I actually have a daughter, and I don't want her to dream about any of those things -- except being a mom. I want her to strive to be a wife to a good, caring Priesthood holder and the mother of nations. I almost literally could not care less what she studies in college or what she does to earn money, as long as it's moral.

A woman's place is in the home. That's where I hope my daughter puts her heart. (The same holds true for my sons, by the way.)

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

None taken my friend. Understand totally where you are coming from. 

Understand totally you too! 

Basically, the deeper you dig into Western feminism, the more of a cesspit it becomes. 

Too many figures at the top are corrupt to the core, and too many rank-and-file are Tumblr princesses or special snowflakes who don't understand life outside of their bubble. 

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On 4/21/2017 at 3:08 PM, person0 said:

There is nothing good in feminism.  The feminist movement, by definition, is not good.

Feminism is contributory to the societal decline of the family, and as a result the decline of righteousness in the United States.  Feminism is not about equality or justice, it is about power and control.

Women in leadership in the Church has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or the feminist movement, such a notion is completely false.  The fact that Emma Smith was an influential leader is evidence of this, as her leadership and position was inspired by God long before the feminist movement came to be.

While women are and should be able to enter the work force, this should be a well thought out and prayerful decision (in righteous counsel with their spouse if married), rather than the norm that feminism wants it to be.  There is place for women in the work force without the modern feminist movement.  Feminism is anti-women, it specifically seeks to degrade a woman's sacred role as a mother.  'By their fruits ye shall know them'.

Doggonit!! You're making it really difficult to disagree with you.  Can't you say some things I can't accept.  Sheesh!  It's like you want me to like you or something.

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I am an environmentalist.  But I can't support the environmental movement.

I fully support rights for women.  But I can't support the feminist movement.

I fully support rights for men.  But I can't support male chauvinism.

I am a devout Mormon.  But I can't support the young earth theory.

I am a musician.  But I refuse to buy any Justin Bieber albums.

I am an Asian foodie.  But I do NOT like sashimi.

Everyone will use whatever labels or definitions they want.  But I hope I've made my intent clear when I say "Modern Feminism is evil."

Edited by Guest
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On 4/21/2017 at 5:34 PM, Godless said:

You're right. It's only brought about voting rights, attitudes and policies that discourage sexual harassment and sexual assault, and advancements towards labor equality. All things that we should have left well enough alone.

You could make a strong case that this statement applies to radical feminism. But if you read the OP, you would know that radical feminism isn't what we're talking about here. In an age when the parental rights and academic careers of convicted rapists are sought to be protected, we still need feminism. In an age when women are judged for choosing school and careers over parenthood (and the opposite, to be fair), we still need feminism.

This is the problem right here.

Before I go on my soliloquy, let me just explain things to Godless.  The word Feminism has been hijacked.  So cue in that Princess Bride meme... You keep using that word.. it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Feminism in most of the Western World came in 3 waves:  1.)  Suffrage and legal liberties, 2.) Reproductive Rights and Equal Pay, 3.) Patriarchy.

What you are talking about Godless, has been fought mostly in the 1st Wave and some in the 2nd Wave of Feminism.  The advent of birth control in the 60's and the legalization of abortion in the 70's started the swing of the Feminist movement pendulum beyond the equality mark.

Today, when you hear the word Feminism anywhere in the Western World, you are talking about the 3rd wave - Patriarchy.  This is where Women - who have already pinnacled in their fight for equality, kept the pendulum swinging farther instead of maintaining the equilibrium and spreading their achievements to the rest of the Planet.  In this 3rd wave of feminism, you have women focusing on female victimhood in gender-neutral issues while completely ignoring, and even SUPPRESSING, the cries for legal liberties of women in the East (this was achieved in the west in the 1st wave!!!) because it conflicts with the the 3rd wave feminists' political posturing.

Godless, this is NOT RADICAL FEMINISM.  This IS THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT.  This is what that Woman's March was all about.  You can pretend that... oh, all these pro-life women, religious women, stay-at-home women, regular working women marched for Feminism.  They were all fooled.  Ask yourself... what was the purpose of the Womens' March?  What is their message?  Do you even know?

So, let's see what the Feminists are fighting for:

Equal Pay - That men are institutionally paid more than women for the same work in the USA is a myth.  As a matter of fact, it is ILLEGAL.  That there are more women wanting to be a nurse instead of a doctor with the higher pay grade while there are more men wanting to be a doctor than to be a nurse is a FACT.  That women take more unpaid leave than men is a FACT.  That women work less hours than men is a FACT.  AND THIS IS GOOD.  As @yjacket has pointed out.  Women are instinctively wired (call it the light of Christ if you like) to put their families above their ambition and that's a good thing!

Rape Culture - Men are rapists is a myth.  I don't need to go farther than that.  It is an insult to my husband and my sons to even claim this stupidity.

Pro-Choice - Abortion is legal.  That battle has been won and swung past equilibrium.  Now they're trying to stop anyone from swinging the pendulum to the center by stopping any reasonable opposition to the status quo... such as late-term abortions, abortions as birth-control, a father's say on abortion, Planned Parenthood, etc.

And any other perceived slight that is inflicted by the Patriarchy... like women having to pay for tampons...

On the other hand, these women - because they are supported by the political left who, for some reason, decided they can't say anything bad about Muslims - encourage non-Muslim celebrities to go to the Middle East and wear hijabs completely ignorant (or maybe they know it, they just don't care) that the women of the Middle East (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) have taken the hijab as their symbol of women's oppression and are trying very hard to get rid of it along with all the legal claptrap that binds women to oppressive living!

So, to say that this kind of feminist movement is EVEN RELATED AT ALL to the 1st Wave of Feminists that got us women our legal liberties is a laugh out loud funny kind of sad.  This kind of feminism needs to BE SQUASHED LIKE A SOUL-SUCKING MOSQUITO.  And you know what, when we do point out why they need to get squashed, we have people like Godless saying... but but but... suffrage!

Anyway, there's good news for us sane women... the number of women in the US who identify as a Feminist is only 18%.  In the UK, only 7%.  In Australia, only 10%... Although, upwards of 85% in all those countries are committed to Gender Equality.  And yes, they don't mean Equal = The Same.  Because, duh, uterus.

Edited by anatess2
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Guest Godless
20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Before I go on my soliloquy, let me just explain things to Godless.  The word Feminism has been hijacked.  So cue in that Princess Bride meme... You keep using that word.. it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Feminism in most of the Western World came in 3 waves:  1.)  Suffrage and legal liberties, 2.) Reproductive Rights and Equal Pay, 3.) Patriarchy.

Wave 1 is finished in the Western world, yes. The status of wave 2 is admittedly pretty subjective, depending on where you stand on issues like bodily autonomy and conception/start of life. 

20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Godless, this is NOT RADICAL FEMINISM.  This IS THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT.  This is what that Woman's March was all about.  You can pretend that... oh, all these pro-life women, religious women, stay-at-home women, regular working women marched for Feminism.  They were all fooled.  Ask yourself... what was the purpose of the Womens' March?  What is their message?  Do you even know?

From what I could gather, the march was primarily an outcry against a new president who, at various points in his career, has represented the pinnacle of male chauvinism through his words and actions. The march was a message to the new administration that the women of America aren't objects to be grabbed or trophies to be paraded about. It was also a response to a very real threat of Planned Parenthood defunding, which in accordance with current laws would take a relatively minuscule amount of government money out of abortion services while effectively gutting non-abortion services. Yes, I know there are loopholes. Close the dang loopholes if it upsets you that much. Don't take away one of the best pre-natal care options that low-income women have.

20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

That women take more unpaid leave than men is a FACT. 

That's because we're one of the few Western nations that hasn't established paid maternity leave on a national level. The way I see it, that's currently the biggest roadblock to pay equality in the US, not a wage gap. Motherhood shouldn't be discouraged in our workforce. It should be accommodated far more than it currently is, especially in an age when SAH motherhood isn't a viable economic option for many women. 

20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Rape Culture - Men are rapists is a myth.  I don't need to go farther than that.  It is an insult to my husband and my sons to even claim this stupidity.

If "men are rapists" is your perception of the idea of rape culture, then you haven't been paying attention. 

20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Pro-Choice - Abortion is legal.  That battle has been won and swung past equilibrium.  Now they're trying to stop anyone from swinging the pendulum to the center by stopping any reasonable opposition to the status quo... such as late-term abortions, abortions as birth-control, a father's say on abortion, Planned Parenthood, etc.

Late-term abortions - almost exclusively done for medical, not elective reasons. Taking that away puts women's lives at risk, period.

Birth control - Again, this goes back to how you view a fertilized egg. 

Father's say - It's not the father's body.

Planned Parenthood - I already addressed this. 

20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

On the other hand, these women - because they are supported by the political left who, for some reason, decided they can't say anything bad about Muslims - encourage non-Muslim celebrities to go to the Middle East and wear hijabs completely ignorant (or maybe they know it, they just don't care) that the women of the Middle East (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) have taken the hijab as their symbol of women's oppression and are trying very hard to get rid of it along with all the legal claptrap that binds women to oppressive living!

I agree that there is nothing logical in this. I absolutely oppose religious oppression of women, regardless of what religion it is. 

20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So, to say that this kind of feminist movement is EVEN RELATED AT ALL to the 1st Wave of Feminists that got us women our legal liberties is a laugh out loud funny kind of sad.  This kind of feminism needs to BE SQUASHED LIKE A SOUL-SUCKING MOSQUITO.  And you know what, when we do point out why they need to get squashed, we have people like Godless saying... but but but... suffrage!

It was a cheap shot on my part, I admit. But hopefully I've been able to provide a bit more clarity on my position.

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