"I'm a thinker. I just can't help thinking."

[Vort]

An utterly shameless, comically undisguised humblebrag. Ever notice how often certain types of people in the Church (and outside it) say this? It's the kind of thing you would expect from a 15-year-old boy, perhaps. But I'm talking about actual adults, people in their 20s, 30s, 40s...maybe 80s...

I guess what they are saying is, "I can't help it if I'm so spiritually deep and introspective that I mentally dissect ideas to get at their true core, while the rest of you shallow fools don't do such profound things and as a result never perceive the irregularities and other problems that my tremendous intellect and spiritual greatness can detect."

Seems to me that this is mostly a matter of just plain old pridefulness, mixed in with a generous dollop of utter cluelessness about how other people think about and deal with difficult topics.

[anatess2]

23 minutes ago, Vort said:

An utterly shameless, comically undisguised humblebrag. Ever notice how often certain types of people in the Church (and outside it) say this? It's the kind of thing you would expect from a 15-year-old boy, perhaps. But I'm talking about actual adults, people in their 20s, 30s, 40s...maybe 80s...

I guess what they are saying is, "I can't help it if I'm so spiritually deep and introspective that I mentally dissect ideas to get at their true core, while the rest of you shallow fools don't do such profound things and as a result never perceive the irregularities and other problems that my tremendous intellect and spiritual greatness can detect."

Seems to me that this is mostly a matter of just plain old pridefulness, mixed in with a generous dollop of utter cluelessness about how other people think about and deal with difficult topics.

I take umbrage at your insult of 15-year-olds.  My 15-year-old may like to join in the trolling of Shia Labeouf once in a while (to the utter dismay of his mother) but this kind of silliness is not something I would expect from him. 

 

Kidding aside... my kids - 13 and 15 - do get in their know-it-all attitudes once a while but they have not done so when it comes to spiritual things.  In that, they do acknowledge that what has been revealed may be very little compared to what has not been revealed and they are happy to just let that be in a we-really-don't-know state.

Edited April 24, 2017 by anatess2

[person0]

I personally have no use for this phrase.  I am an intelligent and analytical person, and my family, friends, co-workers and many people in my ward already know this because they interact with me on a regular basis.  Being analytical, or a 'thinker' as the phrase in consideration would suggest, is just as much a curse as a gift.  I sometimes over think normal everyday situations and interactions and cause myself undue stress as a result.  My analyses often come out at the right time and truly uplift and inspire people with new perspectives, but also sometimes lead me to share information about a topic (not necessarily gospel related) with people who ultimately couldn't could care less.  This happens because I tend to assume that people, when asking about something, want to be as knowledgeable about the given topic as I want to be, or already am.  So then I just annoyed or bored someone to death because they just wanted to know x answer, and I explained them x and the why behind it.

I have only heard this phrase a few times, and the impression I get is similar to yours.  I would say these individuals are potentially clueless in their pride, as they might even think they are doing some grand favor revealing their wisdom.  In other cases, I would say, depending on the context they may be trying to cover for an introspectively known intellectual inadequacy, and/or may be seeking external approval, or trying to uplift themselves because they are so excited they actually came up with something.

Anyway, someone who truly is a 'thinker', and, 'just can't help thinking', I would hope would eventually come to a similar conclusion as I have about my own knowledge/thoughts/intellect.  Otherwise I would assume they entirely lack self awareness (which seems to be a common problem in our society these days)! Oh the irony. 

[Maureen]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

...I guess what they are saying is, "I can't help it if I'm so spiritually deep and introspective that I mentally dissect ideas to get at their true core, while the rest of you shallow fools don't do such profound things and as a result never perceive the irregularities and other problems that my tremendous intellect and spiritual greatness can detect."...

@Vort, haven't you ever heard the proverb "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."?

M.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Maureen
Corrected proverb

[Maureen]

24 minutes ago, person0 said:

...I would say these individuals are potentially clueless in their pride, as they might even think they are doing some grand favor revealing their wisdom.  In other cases, I would say, depending on the context they may be trying to cover for an introspectively known intellectual inadequacy, and/or may be seeking external approval, or trying to uplift themselves because they are so excited they actually came up with something...

Exactly. ?

M.

[Guest MormonGator]

52 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Exactly. ?

M.

It's true, an "intellectual person" generally won't call themselves such because it's obnoxious and reeks of insecurity. If you are intelligent, you realize how little you really know. Socrates said it best, "All I know is that I know nothing." 

That said, some people are intimidated and afraid of curiosity, history or intelligence because it threatens them or their beliefs. They prefer to tell people "Shut up, obey, don't ask questions and go on your way."

Edited April 24, 2017 by MormonGator

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

It's true, an "intellectual person" generally won't call themselves such because it's obnoxious and reeks of insecurity. If you are intelligent, you realize how little you really know. Socrates said it best, "All I know is that I know nothing." 

That said, some people are intimidated and afraid of curiosity, history or intelligence because it threatens them or their beliefs. They prefer to tell people "Shut up, obey, don't ask questions and go on your way."

Seems like there's a bit of contrast in these two ideas when you throw the gospel into the mix. If one is intelligent enough to know that they know very little, and they also have a testimony, then they would be wise enough to turn to and trust in the word of God and His prophets over their own or other's intellectual abilities. Of course that often then gets translated to "shut up, obey, don't ask question, and go on your way".

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

I guess what they are saying is, "I can't help it if I'm so spiritually deep and introspective that I mentally dissect ideas to get at their true core, while the rest of you shallow fools don't do such profound things and as a result never perceive the irregularities and other problems that my tremendous intellect and spiritual greatness can detect."

When did you start reading my journal?

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

When did you start reading my journal?

That's awesome. 

[Guest]

Yeah, generally people who claim to be pondering things more deeply than others lack understanding of social cues, and/or humility.

 

Believe it or not, many people actually keep their thoughts to themselves. Especially the "deeper" ones.

[Fether]

5 hours ago, Eowyn said:

Yeah, generally people who claim to be pondering things more deeply than others lack understanding of social cues, and/or humility.

 

Believe it or not, many people actually keep their thoughts to themselves. Especially the "deeper" ones.

Why keep it to yourself??

"Anytime we learn something new, we have an obligation to share it with someone else. You'll notice I did not say it would be a nice thing to share it with someone else. I used the word obligation. Let's go back to the Savior's message to Peter. The Savior did not say, "And when thou art converted, it might be nice if you have time to strengthen your brethren."" - Elder Russell T. Osguthorpe

I absolutely love hear what the spirit taught others that week. Or even what questions the spirit brought to their mind.

@Vort like anything, the spiritual gift to ponder can be turned into a weakness. I think someone who ponders and thinks deeply about the basic doctrines (faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost, and enduring) are in fact clueless... and they are trying to figure things out. Sometimes things just don't make sense and those things weigh on my mind often.

The other day I was sitting in Sunday school asking myself "why am I even here?" I was feeling anxiety from the fact that I rarely feel the spirit from hearing a testimony, or that I have only cried once in my life from feeling the spirit. I don't know why hearing simple truths don't get me excited about the gospel. So what do I do? I delve into BYU speeches, or large manuscripts provided by those infinitely smarter than I am. I study the Standard Worlks slowly in hopes to learn something knew to feed my desire to feel excitement.  I ponder deeply about subjects both plain and controversial and share them openly regardless if they are right or wrong or whether o even believe they are right or wrong. All this to get what one could call a "fix". Without my deep thoughts, hard questions and in depth studies, I don't know where I would be in the gospel.

Now I know you are talking more about the old guy who goes up and bears his testimony on how the last days are next week, and how we are going to hell if we don't take the sacrament with our right hands, and that Adam is God and we are all idiots if we don't agree. I recognize that if we press for knowledge too deeply, a spirit beside the Holy Ghost will whisper. But just know that not all of us currently have the gift of spiritual sensitivity and we need some level of logic to get us through the next Sunday without going nuts because we can't seem to feel the emotion that is overcoming everyone in the congregation after a young girl says "I know G-d loves me" while crying. I have been praying to be able to join in on them since before my mission.

*steps off soap box*

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Fether said:

Why keep it to yourself??

1. Maybe it's sacred

2. Casting pearls before swine was also counseled against

3. Timing

    3a. No one likes a know-it-all

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

"Anytime we learn something new, we have an obligation to share it with someone else. You'll notice I did not say it would be a nice thing to share it with someone else. I used the word obligation. Let's go back to the Savior's message to Peter. The Savior did not say, "And when thou art converted, it might be nice if you have time to strengthen your brethren."" - Elder Russell T. Osguthorpe

Hmmm, interesting.  Do you have the link to the talk this came from?  I'd like to read it in context.  

My experience has been that every time I learn something new, I WANT to share it with everyone.  I always think -- naively -- that everyone will be as excited to receive this information (secular or religious) as I was/am.  But for the most part that has not been the case.    I have learned to be careful in what I share and who I share with (again both secular and religious).  This is one of those moments that I think if I could sit down with Elder Osgurthorpe, he could explain what he meant better and IF that applies to my situation.  I'm not convinced that everything we learn is meant to be shared, as @Eowyn said for reasons of sacredness, pears and swine, and timing.  

[Sunday21]

I have learnt that there are many spiritual truths that I can only reach through obedience and action: the sacredness of tithing, the word of wisdom, sabbath observance. Often you need to be obedient to receive revelation, sometimes analyzing doesn't help. You need to do.

[zil]

8 hours ago, Fether said:

... I was feeling anxiety from the fact that I rarely feel the spirit from hearing a testimony, or that I have only cried once in my life from feeling the spirit. I don't know why hearing simple truths don't get me excited about the gospel. .... But just know that not all of us currently have the gift of spiritual sensitivity and we need some level of logic to get us through the next Sunday without going nuts because we can't seem to feel the emotion that is overcoming everyone in the congregation after a young girl says "I know G-d loves me" while crying. I have been praying to be able to join in on them since before my mission.

Not everyone feels overwhelming emotion in connection with the Spirit.  Not everyone displaying overwhelming emotion is feeling the Spirit.  (Crying is generally a response to overwhelming emotion - or physical pain.)  In other words, the two do not go hand-in-hand.  Just because you personally don't feel moved to tears does not mean you're not feeling the Spirit correctly, sufficiently, or however adverbially you think appropriate.  Perhaps, instead of seeking overwhelming emotion, or just tears, you should ask the Lord to help you understand your own reactions to the Spirit.

[Fether]

4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Hmmm, interesting.  Do you have the link to the talk this came from?  I'd like to read it in context.  

My experience has been that every time I learn something new, I WANT to share it with everyone.  I always think -- naively -- that everyone will be as excited to receive this information (secular or religious) as I was/am.  But for the most part that has not been the case.    I have learned to be careful in what I share and who I share with (again both secular and religious).  This is one of those moments that I think if I could sit down with Elder Osgurthorpe, he could explain what he meant better and IF that applies to my situation.  I'm not convinced that everything we learn is meant to be shared, as @Eowyn said for reasons of sacredness, pears and swine, and timing.  

@Eowyn for sure, you are totally right about the sacred part. If it is sacred, it is for you (particularly intense spiritual experiences. :). I'm talking about if you are having a discussion about faith and you learned something profound about faith while studying... say... the war chapters. I think you should share it in class!  as a teacher in Elder's Quorum, I crave for the students to share personal experience and to not just listen to me speak. The best lessons are the ones that go slightly off on a class made tangent that the whole class is involved in. 

 

Here is the talk : http://www.byui.edu/devotionals/president-russell-t-osguthorpe

[Fether]

53 minutes ago, zil said:

Not everyone feels overwhelming emotion in connection with the Spirit.  Not everyone displaying overwhelming emotion is feeling the Spirit.  (Crying is generally a response to overwhelming emotion - or physical pain.)  In other words, the two do not go hand-in-hand.  Just because you personally don't feel moved to tears does not mean you're not feeling the Spirit correctly, sufficiently, or however adverbially you think appropriate.  Perhaps, instead of seeking overwhelming emotion, or just tears, you should ask the Lord to help you understand your own reactions to the Spirit.

Thank you for the advice  I am aware of this and I do regularly seek it. And I do feel like I have come to understand the spirit in my life. The struggle is that the feeling I associate with the spirit doesn't feel out of the ordinary, it almost feels just like logic, or when you understand a math concept correctly for the first time. Maybe it's just a lack of faith on my part, but I often times want something more intense... but that isn't really how God works. So I guess I do have to walk by faith

[wenglund]

On 4/24/2017 at 10:47 PM, Eowyn said:

    3a. No one likes a know-it-all

Guilty as charged. But, I can't help myself. I am a thinker...

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Sunday21]

'I just can't help it, I'm always thinking'

This statement reminds me of young adult activities in which, very frequently during a testimony session, some young priesthood  holder would stand up and announce that they had just received revelation from G-d. 

In a way, it is a benefit to live in a location where, there is such a need for people to fill callings. Anyone with phony religiosity will be worked to death up here. I was called to the RS presidency when I was attending church only intermittently. I had just returned to church after years of inactivity. I do not know how the other members of the presidency managed not to strangle me. I was not only clueless about basic Mormon procedure but I kept trying to schedule meetings around my belly dancing class. 

 

[Mike]

On 4/24/2017 at 11:54 AM, Vort said:

An utterly shameless, comically undisguised humblebrag. Ever notice how often certain types of people in the Church (and outside it) say this? It's the kind of thing you would expect from a 15-year-old boy, perhaps. But I'm talking about actual adults, people in their 20s, 30s, 40s...maybe 80s...

I guess what they are saying is, "I can't help it if I'm so spiritually deep and introspective that I mentally dissect ideas to get at their true core, while the rest of you shallow fools don't do such profound things and as a result never perceive the irregularities and other problems that my tremendous intellect and spiritual greatness can detect."

Seems to me that this is mostly a matter of just plain old pridefulness, mixed in with a generous dollop of utter cluelessness about how other people think about and deal with difficult topics.

Hmmm. I'm reminded of the saying, "If the shoe fits, wear it." And so I sit here pondering the size of my own feet. As I ponder, I wonder about what prompted your thoughts on this particular topic, Vort. Is this aimed at any particular experience lately? Given what you said (and rightly so) regarding cluelessness about how other people think and deal with difficult topics I suppose it's risky to conclude how the "deep thinkers" think, too lest I be guilty of the same pridefulness I might be tempted to indict someone else of having. It's all very challenging. 

[zil]

I've been thinking a lot about this thread.  In fact, I just can't help thinking about it.  (Probably because it keeps showing up in the "Unread Content" list, though...)  I think I'll go ponder (converting local time to UTC) for a while.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

As I ponder, I wonder about what prompted your thoughts on this particular topic, Vort. Is this aimed at any particular experience lately?

Probably, though I don't consciously know which event was the straw breaking this proverbial camel's back. I realize that it's pretty common for teens and young adults to talk about how deep their thinking is and how those Deep Thoughts have led them to this or that marvelous insight. It's a bit self-serving, yes, but in such cases it's probably an honest reflection of immaturity. Nothing wrong with that. You don't expect an apple blossom to taste sweet.

But at some point, you do expect people to be a bit more self-aware. Adults understand that some of their ideas are insightful or even brilliant, some are kind of stupid, and most are more or less common thoughts had by thousands of adults in a like situation. Adults also realize that they themselves usually can't tell which of their thoughts fall into which camp. (I mean, if you knew your idea was one of the stupid ones, you wouldn't think about it any more, would you?) So it betrays a lack of awareness, sometimes comical, often self-serving, to proclaim one's own Deep Thoughtfulness before revealing one's Deep Thoughts to others.

I had no one on this forum in mind when I wrote the OP. On the contrary, as Maureen has so graciously pointed out, I'm sure I am just as guilty of doing such things on this forum as the next guy. It's a part of the mortal experience, I suppose.

 

[Vort]

On 4/25/2017 at 6:17 AM, zil said:

correctly, sufficiently, or however adverbially you think appropriate

[Guest]

On 4/24/2017 at 0:54 PM, Vort said:

"I'm a thinker. I just can't help thinking."

On 4/24/2017 at 11:34 PM, Fether said:

I think ...

On 4/25/2017 at 4:30 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

I always think...

On 4/25/2017 at 9:09 AM, Fether said:

I think ...

22 hours ago, wenglund said:

I am a thinker...

1 hour ago, zil said:

I've been thinking a lot... I just can't help thinking...

[zil]

Just now, Carborendum said:

It's OK, Carb.  No one's every going to accuse you of thinking too much. <gdrvvf>