Deciding who to tell about my excommunication


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Hi All,

As I stated in a previous thread, I was excommunicated a week and a half ago.  It has been about 2.5 months since I decided to choose the path of repentance and disclose my misdeeds to my wife, bishop, etc.  We have 2 young boys age 1.5 and 5.  Right now my parents know about everything as well as a sister and her husband and a few close friends (for my wife's support).  My wife and I are trying to decide if, and how much we tell her parents.  She feels guilty that we haven't told them anything yet. We have a baby blessing in her family coming up that I will obviously not be able to participate in, but I don't want to miss.   I also wonder how much and at what point we talk to our 5 year old about what is going on.  Any suggestions. 

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Feeling for you here.  There will be awkwardness.  There will probably be gossip.  

But I'd suggest you only tell people who absolutely need to know.  For the baby blessing, it sounds like your presence would be requested or even expected?   Yeah, when there's an obvious gap, when people see the circle, and see you sitting there, they will know something is up.  When humans see a gap like that, their brains automatically come up with what they figure is the best theory to fit what they're seeing.  But in my experience, most humans tend to fill in the gap with something worse than what's actually happening.

Beware inappropriate shame and guilt.  But also beware gossippy people who demand to know things and spread rumors and assume stuff.  In fact, here's a good way to find out about various people in your and your wife's life.  They will struggle, and some may struggle unsuccessfully.  If you encounter people who react badly, well, you know something about them.  You know they're reacting badly.  Forgive them, for they're sinners just like you. 

I was never excommunicated, but I did go through a period of informal probation - kind of the light end of the church discipline spectrum.  I of course told my wife everything, she was there every step of the way.  Didn't tell anyone else anything.  The only outward thing was I had to decline to offer one prayer - I don't really think anyone noticed.  You have it a bit harder - sounds like lots of people will notice.  I only really talk about it now, when there's a good reason to (like help someone on an anonymous message board ;).)

"I'm working through something with the bishop".  That's all you need to say when the legitimate need arises.  Make it your mantra if needed.  Then let any gossippy or clueless people just dash their struggles against the cliffs of your righteous behavior, and don't bother being hurt or offended.  For going through this process, is a righteous thing you are doing.  

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Your and your wife's personal comfort level comes first here.  If it makes you highly uncomfortable to tell her parents (or anyone else), then *if* a situation comes up that something must be said (like point-blank asked to participate in the baby blessing), then you can simply say "Thank you, I appreciate the honor, but feel that I'm not the best person at this time."  If absolutely pressed you can say "I'm working through something very personal right now with my bishop.  Thank you for your support in caring about me as I work through this personal matter".   

Obviously if you feel comfortable/want to discuss things further with other people, you're free to open up.  But don't feel obligated.

As to your 5 year old: again this is a personal choice.  Honestly you probably could just not tell him-- at 5 I doubt he'll understand much of it at all.

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While you and your wife will have to decide this yourselves, I would personally tell as few people as possible.  Frankly, it isn't anyone else's business. 

Obviously I would tell my wife what was going on - she has a right to know.  I don't know that I would tell my parents, though.  What business is it of theirs?  Same goes for in-laws (though, if my wife needed to talk with someone about it, I would be OK if she told her parents.  My relationship with my own in-laws is such that I would not want to discuss any part of the excommunication with them personally - I would tell my wife, if she wants to tell her parents, fine, tell as much or as little as you want, I don't want to be involved or hear about it).  I doubt I would tell my young children, who don't understand, really don't need to know and may feel needless distress over the situation.

As for siblings, friends, uncles, aunts, grandparents, other in-laws, etc?  None of their business!

That said, if you want to tell someone because you respect their counsel or admire them, you should feel free to do so.

As for the blessing, if you are intent on going, perhaps it would be good if your wife smoothed things over with curious parties.  If anyone asked me personally, I would probably say something along the lines of "I didn't participate and my reasons are my own."  You may have a more polite way of saying the same, but I personally have a way of getting gruff with people who pry into what is none of their business without me inviting them in first.  EDIT: I just saw @Jane_Doe approach, and I think she has a much more diplomatic way of going about this.  

Good luck, brother!

Edited by DoctorLemon
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1 hour ago, workingonit said:

I also wonder how much and at what point we talk to our 5 year old about what is going on.  Any suggestions. 

Don't tell your 5 year old unless you want the ward, the school and the world knowing what is going on. Young children have no real concept of private conversation vs. public conversation; i.e. they don't have the capability to recognize what they should say to others and what they shouldn't say to others-that requires many years of training.

So if you tell the 5 year old-the information will be guaranteed to get out.  I probably wouldn't make that big of a deal of it with the kid.  You are still planning on going to church? And doing most of the normal church things-except things you can't do. So don't bring it up . . .if on the off chance the kid gets wise and says something like "Why doesn't daddy take the sacrament?" It's a great teaching moment, you can just say "when we take the sacrament we covenant with God to always remember him and to keep His commandments, daddy did somethings that broke God's commandments and can't take the sacrament for a while until he has fully repented". Or something to that effect-if the kid wants more detail give 'em the old "I'll tell you when you are older".

 

Edited by yjacket
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Just two categories of people:

  1. Tell those you feel perfectly comfortable telling.
  2. Tell those on a "need to know basis."

That's all.  

Your in-laws?  If you're contemplating it, then it sounds like you don't feel comfortable.  Do they NEED to know?  I don't see why.

Your children?  Probably not.  I only found out that my father was on some form of Church discipline when I became an adult.  They never told me what type.  But I eventually pieced together what he had done -- no one actually told me.

The main reason you (according to what you've said) don't want to tell everyone (and you shouldn't) is that there are only a few reasons why people get excommunicated.  So, whoever finds out about it will jump to the worst conclusions.  From what you've told us so far, it will probably be accurate.  So, they're not thinking anything incorrect, right?  What if they judge you?  What if they imagine you did something worse than you actually did? Well...

  1. If you are not sincere in your repentance, then that's going to come down on you from the Lord.  So, it's none of their business.
  2. If you are sincere in your repentance, then they're going to be held accountable for hindering your progress by withholding their love for you.

Either way, you do what you have to do.  Will it be tough? Yes.  But to be honest, you'll have to understand that is a natural consequence of your choices.

 

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Thank you guys.  I really don't want to tell my in laws but my therapist and my wife both want ME to tell them.  They feel it is part of my consequences, which I disagree with but at this time I will do anything my wife feels is beneficial to her.  I don't want her feeling guilty that she is hiding something from them and being anxious every time they call that they heard it somewhere else.   I don't think they need to know, and honestly while I hope they will be helpful, is see them as being a hindrance to our progress.   Its kinda tough to make some of these decisions without the Holy Ghost to help (this is one of my consequences).

I appreciate the advise on my kid.  They way you guys worded is much better than what I was considering telling him.  He gets worried in sacrament meeting if he see's that I "missed" the sacrament. 

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4 minutes ago, workingonit said:

Thank you guys.  I really don't want to tell my in laws but my therapist and my wife both want ME to tell them.  They feel it is part of my consequences, which I disagree with but at this time I will do anything my wife feels is beneficial to her.  I don't want her feeling guilty that she is hiding something from them and being anxious every time they call that they heard it somewhere else.   I don't think they need to know, and honestly while I hope they will be helpful, is see them as being a hindrance to our progress.   Its kinda tough to make some of these decisions without the Holy Ghost to help (this is one of my consequences).

My $0.02: your wife does have a say in who gets told, especially if the reason for excommunication was related to chastity/fidelity.  Your sins are not hers, but having her husband go through this is a trial in her life.  She can also consult the Spirit too.  Also: you two get to set the boundaries of anyone's participation in this process.  You could have someone know, but not directly participate in your process (obviously they can pray).  

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Just now, Jane_Doe said:

My $0.02: your wife does have a say in who gets told, especially if the reason for excommunication was related to chastity/fidelity.  Your sins are not hers, but having her husband go through this is a trial in her life.  She can also consult the Spirit too.  Also: you two get to set the boundaries of anyone's participation in this process.  You could have someone know, but not directly participate in your process (obviously they can pray).  

That's the thing.  While I don't technically think it is any business of the in-laws, if the wife has stood by the OP and has been an absolute angel during this time, I might give some serious consideration to going along with her wishes on this point.  It may be uncomfortable in the short run, but such a move may show love and faith towards the wife, and ultimately strengthen the marriage, which is the most important relationship involved.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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2 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

That's the thing.  While I don't technically think it is any business of the in-laws, if the wife has stood by the OP and has been an absolute angel during this time, I might give some serious consideration to going along with her wishes on this point.  It may be uncomfortable in the short run, but such a move may show love and faith towards the wife, and strengthen the most important relationship involved.

@workingonit,

As usual, I have to bow to Doc Lemon's wisdom.  If the wife is willing to stand by you, then do whatever she asks.  Cause if Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The main reason you (according to what you've said) don't want to tell everyone (and you shouldn't) is that there are only a few reasons why people get excommunicated.  So, whoever finds out about it will jump to the worst conclusions.  From what you've told us so far, it will probably be accurate.  So, they're not thinking anything incorrect, right?  What if they judge you?  What if they imagine you did something worse than you actually did?

Oh sure, like it takes being excommunicated for that.  :rolleyes:

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For the OP, excommunication is between you, your line of Priesthood authority, and those you choose to include.  I'm not sure how a man could justify not bringing a wife (at least one active in the Church) or a child old enough to understand at the time into that, given that it will directly impact availability of the Priesthood in the home, but anyone else is your choice.  (Personally, were I in that situation, I'd also want my HTs to know why they might be getting some calls for stuff I should be handling, but that's more of a courtesy to them so they know it' not just a matter of some ongoing, unaddressed worthiness issue.)

Anyone else who won't accept, "it wouldn't be appropriate for me to [do whatever] right now for reasons I don't care to discuss" just needs to get over it.  It's none of their business why, and frankly, pretty much any restriction can be set as a condition of informal or formal probation, advised by a leader as a temporary matter without any specific discipline, or just taken upon one's self as a need is felt, so implying anything from such a statement is inappropriate.

Edited by NightSG
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I'll admit that I've not read all of the answers yet, so I apologize if this is a duplicate.
Rather than focus on who you should tell, I would work on your humble reply once they find out. The fact of the matter is that most everyone that is involved with your family is going to find out about your excommunication one way or another. This doesn't mean they will find out necessarily in a gossip/malicious way, it simply means that too many people already know and this is not the type of thing you can hide forever. While I have full confidence that what you actually did to arrive at excommunication will remain private, the excommunication itself will not remain private. 

So... focus on your response both verbally and emotionally. I would figure out a plan on how to address it as a couple as well.

There is a huge difference between a person who is:
1. excommunicated, hates the church, the world, God and basically goes off the deep end.
vs.
2. yes, I'm excommunicated, I screwed up (big time), I'm working on restoring things and hope for your blessings as I work through this. Thank you for your support and understanding. 

All of us have short comings. Head up brother and take it a day at a time.

Edited by NeedleinA
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4 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

When someone is excommunicated, do we inform: Relief Society and priesthood teachers? Sunday school teachers? Because that is a lot of people and virtually everyone will know if we do that!

Being excommunicated limits your ability to participate in certain aspects of church life, for example: saying a prayer, giving a talk, sharing a lesson, etc.
There are times when sharing some minor information with others is needed. Imagine if the same Gospel Doctrine teacher repeatedly asks Sister X (excommunicated) to offer the prayer. This puts Sister X in an awkward situation to repeatedly decline and leaves the teacher wondering why not. A courtesy acknowledgement from a church leader might let that teacher know not to call upon Sister X simply because, "Sister X is currently unable to participate right now, so lets ask others for their help instead moving forward, thank you".

By sharing a little, many awkward, embarrassing and uncomfortable situations can simply be avoided for all groups and make for a more inviting and harmonious setting. 

Edited by NeedleinA
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1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

Being excommunicated limits your ability to participate in certain aspects of church life, for example: saying a prayer, giving a talk, sharing a lesson, etc.
There are times when sharing some minor information with others is needed. Imagine if the same Gospel Doctrine teacher repeatedly asks Sister X (excommunicated) to offer the prayer. This puts Sister X in an awkward situation to repeatedly decline and leaves the teacher wondering why not. A courtesy acknowledgement from a church leader might let that teacher know not to call upon Sister X simply because, "Sister X is currently unable to participate right now, so lets ask others for their help instead moving forward, thank you".

By sharing a little, many awkward, embarrassing and uncomfortable situations can simply be avoided for all groups and make for a more inviting and harmonious setting. 

Because of this, I have made it a practice when I teach to make the prayer assignments before the lesson starts (one on one). Then if a person wants to decline (and some have) they may do so with only a minimal amount of people hearing. I don't think I've ever been told not to call on Bro. or Sis. Whatsherbucket, so I think those that know have kept it to themselves.

I've been in presidencies but never president, and only on two occasions have I been told that someone was excommunicated. The first was because I went to visit with the brother and had a rather singular experience (nothing gossip-worthy, just very unusual and a bit confusing). I came back and reported it and the leader shared with me that he had been excommunicated, which cleared up my confusion.

I'll make the second one a separate post since I think there's a good moral to that story.

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The second one was when I was a missionary and the bishop informed us because he wasn't sure if we needed to teach him the discussions before his blessings were restored (we didn't). Most of the ward did not know he was excommunicated. When his blessings were finally restored, he invited us to be there and the bishop agreed that it would be a good experience for us. Only a handful of people were there, including the man's family, the bishop, his home teachers, and someone from the stake. And it was a really good experience. As with the story of the lost sheep, the lost coin, or the prodigal, we rejoiced and heaven rejoiced and this good brother rejoiced when he returned into the covenant.

One more story I'll share on this subject. I was talking to a high councilor about church discipline. He shared with me that the disciplinary council that excommunicates someone is only part of the procedure. The intent is that there is another council meeting held in which it is agreed to reinstate the member. That earlier meeting is not supposed to be the end. There is supposed to be a joyful reunion, but that happens only if the guest of honor returns.

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59 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I've ever been told not to call on Bro. or Sis. Whatsherbucket

That's only because, as everyone knows, Brother and Sister Whatsherbucket are phenomenally good and faithful members.  They seem to have relatives in nearly every ward, so that no matter which Brother and sister Whatsherbucket you talk about, the story is always the same.

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3 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Being excommunicated limits your ability to participate in certain aspects of church life, for example: saying a prayer, giving a talk, sharing a lesson, etc.
There are times when sharing some minor information with others is needed. Imagine if the same Gospel Doctrine teacher repeatedly asks Sister X (excommunicated) to offer the prayer. This puts Sister X in an awkward situation to repeatedly decline and leaves the teacher wondering why not. A courtesy acknowledgement from a church leader might let that teacher know not to call upon Sister X simply because, "Sister X is currently unable to participate right now, so lets ask others for their help instead moving forward, thank you".

By sharing a little, many awkward, embarrassing and uncomfortable situations can simply be avoided for all groups and make for a more inviting and harmonious setting. 

Dear Needle,

I am not criticizing. Here is the situation. I think that sometimes colleagues and family, confuse the lds church with some other church. I don't know what church they are thinking of but...They say in censorious way  "Of course, you guys excommunicate people". I am not sure what people are referring to but..I usually say something like, "Yes but we still expect excommunicated people to go to church! Excommunication is no excuse for skipping church! And of course, there are social activities!"

I think perhaps they are confusing the lds church with the church of Scotland which requires sinners to stand in front of the congregation and confess their sins. 

Anyway, I was hoping to be able to say that those who are x-ed are not outed. That is, most people in the congregation do not know that you have been x-ed.But if we tell teachers then soon many people will know. (Because people gossip. Actually not in my ward to an amazing and baffling extent!) But do we tell teachers? I am a teacher in RS and no one has every given such information to me so perhaps we do not tell teachers.

I do have a friend who told me that she was rebaptised but she did not explain why and of course I am not going to ask.

But we do not shun people! We are gentle people (well not @mirkwood obviously but you know what I mean)

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

Many non-Latter-day Saints confuse excommunication with "shunning". Not much to do about this, except correct wrong impressions as we hear them voiced.

It is hard to correct miss-impressions when I know so little myself! Not that this has stopped me trying!

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Anyway, I was hoping to be able to say that those who are x-ed are not outed. That is, most people in the congregation do not know that you have been x-ed.

But if we tell teachers then soon many people will know. But do we tell teachers?

No worries Sunday. There are different types/levels/forms of church discipline, excommunication being only one of them. They usually involve the person attending church but with some degree of reduced participation. An outside observer may be able to pick up on cues that a person is working through church discipline, however, they won't necessarily be able to distinguish the extent of discipline since most forms outwardly appear about the same. Might a Church leader gently/privately inform a Gospel Doctrine teacher (my example above) not to call upon Sis. X - yes. Does the leader need to explain why or that discipline is involved- no. Again, sharing with others, it not so much for the teacher's benefit as it is for the person working through discipline so as to not draw unnecessary attention to their situation and still make them feel welcome and loved. Like @Vort, we hope that we can correct any misconceptions, we do not, should not shun others working through repentance.

Repentance is difficult, I believe it is meant to be. It is a process by which we hope to help the person make changes for the better, changes with eternal consequences. When one finds themselves in church discipline it is not uncommon for them to mistakenly feel that all eyes are on them. The reality is they are not. Repentance is part of life. Going through the steps of repentance is part of it too. Many members have gone through repentance and recognize the steps. As such, they should be more understanding and supportive and less judgemental. As much as a person going through discipline wants to hide it from the world, people are going to notice...and that is ok. We would rather see Sis X. actively working on repentance than Bro. Y ignoring his issue and procrastinating the day of his repentance.

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

That is, most people in the congregation do not know that you have been x-ed.But if we tell teachers then soon many people will know. (Because people gossip. Actually not in my ward to an amazing and baffling extent!)

In my experience -- which, I admit, doesn't really establish anything -- Latter-day Saints know how to keep information confidential. Not only the leaders, but those who have "privileged" information, generally seem to recognize that they should keep such knowledge to themselves.

For example, a ward council consists of a dozen or more ward leaders, including the bishopric members, the adult quorum leaders or their counselors, and the auxiliary leaders (Relief Society, Primary, Young Women, Young Men, Sunday School) or their counselors. In addition, it includes the ward executive secretary, the ward clerk, and the ward mission leader. The full-time missionaries also often attend. Though intimate matters of discipline and such are only rarely mentioned in a ward council. other information of a sensitive and potentially embarrassing nature is discussed. Yet that information stays within the ward council, not discussed outside of it, even with spouses.

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, and doubtless someone can point out a case where some ward council member blabbed about confidential information. But in my experience, that would be very much the exception to the rule.

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