Rob Osborn

Security to never fall away from the church? Here it is.

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On a debate on a different board I have been debating with those who fall away or are in the process of it. Three things are always disregarded in a persons decay away from the church into inactivity or leaving the church. Here they are

1. Complete support for the prophets and their cousel

2. Obedience to the commandments

3. Serving your neighbor always, whoever it may be with the pure love of Christ

Any lack or slack of one or combination of those three will always lead to falling away from the church. No person, having perfect faith and obedience to the prophets and commandments while serving others with the pure love of Christ, has ever fallen away from the church.

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43 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

On a debate on a different board I have been debating with those who fall away or are in the process of it. Three things are always disregarded in a persons decay away from the church into inactivity or leaving the church. Here they are

1. Complete support for the prophets and their cousel

2. Obedience to the commandments

3. Serving your neighbor always, whoever it may be with the pure love of Christ

Any lack or slack of one or combination of those three will always lead to falling away from the church. No person, having perfect faith and obedience to the prophets and commandments while serving others with the pure love of Christ, has ever fallen away from the church.

Essentially, this is like saying, "If you always remain firmly on the path of Christ, you will never leave the path. " This strikes me as tautological and lacking in probative or illuminating value.

What may prove more useful is discerning the causes for lack of, or loss of sufficient faith, obedience, and charity, which leads to loss of membership.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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15 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Essentially, this is like saying, "If you always remain firmly on the path of Christ, you will never leave the path. " This strikes me as tautological and lacking in probative or illuminating value.

What may prove more useful is discerning the causes for lack of, or loss of sufficient faith, obedience, and charity, which leads to loss of membership.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Its simple. Like I said, if you find someone falling away its definitely not because they were obedient and folliwing and supporting the prophets counsel. Many who fall away claim they were all in 100% but then you find out they do not agree with the prophets. So, they werent really in 100% afterall.

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4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its simple. Like I said, if you find someone falling away its definitely not because they were obedient and folliwing and supporting the prophets counsel. Many who fall away claim they were all in 100% but then you find out they do not agree with the prophets. So, they werent really in 100% afterall.

To me, that is oversimplification. Members can go from 100% in, relatively speaking, to something far less. Your tautology doesn't account for this.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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23 minutes ago, wenglund said:

To me, that is oversimplification. Members can go from 100% in, relatively speaking, to something far less. Your tautology doesn't account for this.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And how do they get there? My point is that someone truly faithful has no reason to worry whereas someone that neglects his neighbor, views porn occasionally, etc, is already on that road to apostacy and they may not even know why, when some random topic comes up and shakes their testimony and they claim "I went to church, I paid my tithing, I did my home or visiting teaching.

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I copied this post from someone. It literally proves the point-

"I struggled for years before I finally left the church and for about a year before I did decide to leave, I was all in. I was preparing for the temple. I was not just reading the Book of Mormon, I was studying it and writing journal entries about what I felt. I was going to church and praying for my doubts to disappear and to be able to overlook all the hurtful things that the GAs were doing and saying. And you know what happened? Not a damn thing.

Was it because of a character flaw that I didn't get the "right" answer to my prayers?"

 

Had this person not had hurtful feelings with the prophets they wouldnt have fallen away. They were not obedient in their faith.

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May I offer input?

Quote

D&C 45:56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

I would like to suggest, if I may the following three things to ensure one never falls away, straight from Jesus Christ:

1. Receive the truth (from the scriptures, prophets, i.e. Nephi, Joseph Smith, Thomas S. Monson, etc)

2. Take the Holy Spirit only for your guide (2 Nephi 32)

3. Be not deceived (prophets have been deceived from the Old Testament to D&C, including Joseph Smith who lost the 116 page manuscript).

If you have the Holy Ghost and do whatsoever it tells you, you will never be led astray. If you take the Holy Ghost only for your guide, you will discern deception from anyone. And you will abide the day of the Lord's coming. The following witness is from Nephi:

Quote

2 Nephi 32:

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

Be ye therefore wise

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18 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I copied this post from someone. It literally proves the point-

"I struggled for years before I finally left the church and for about a year before I did decide to leave, I was all in. I was preparing for the temple. I was not just reading the Book of Mormon, I was studying it and writing journal entries about what I felt. I was going to church and praying for my doubts to disappear and to be able to overlook all the hurtful things that the GAs were doing and saying. And you know what happened? Not a damn thing.

Was it because of a character flaw that I didn't get the "right" answer to my prayers?"

 

Had this person not had hurtful feelings with the prophets they wouldnt have fallen away. They were not obedient in their faith.

I believe I understand you're main point on this, and you are absolutely right that there's no way this person was actually 'all in' as they claim.  The fact that they believed the General Authorities were saying and doing hurtful things is evidence enough.  When do the GA's actually do and say hurtful things?  Except for the occasional times when they may be acting individually and not within their calling, the ones who are hurt are most often the wicked/guilty who take the truth to be hard.  One huge problem is that many lie to themselves or lead themselves to believe they are truly 'all in' just because they are studying their scriptures the right way like they hadn't done before; that's not enough.

With that in mind, it is also true that it's not always that simple.  Often those who are taking offense are offended by their interpretation of actions/statements rather than the actual thing that was done/said and the true meaning/intention.  In the end, in this persons case, they really weren't 'all in', because they didn't adequately seek additional interpretation of what was said/done, nor appropriately reevaluate their own opinion on the matter to determine that the GA's were right and they were wrong.  Now what the reason is behind why they weren't doing that is what is left for discovery.

Either the Church is true, or it's not, it is that simple (conceptually).  If it's not, one then must determine how important that is to their ideals of religion and the universe, and act accordingly.  If it is, then one must figure out what is wrong with themselves, and change.  Too many people believe it is true but do not change, or refuse to; those people are not 'all in' either.

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6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

On a debate on a different board I have been debating with those who fall away or are in the process of it. Three things are always disregarded in a persons decay away from the church into inactivity or leaving the church. Here they are

1. Complete support for the prophets and their cousel

2. Obedience to the commandments

3. Serving your neighbor always, whoever it may be with the pure love of Christ

Any lack or slack of one or combination of those three will always lead to falling away from the church. No person, having perfect faith and obedience to the prophets and commandments while serving others with the pure love of Christ, has ever fallen away from the church.

These aren't a list of things to do to stay in the church, this is a list of things that people do if they ARE fully active in the church x)

I do, however, agree 100%, but we should be careful in making it a list. I think things like "continually progress", and other things of the such should be on there too... but again, lists and todo lists for gospel success are never perfect.

i can think of situations where one who does these things can still fall away. If one is doing the 3 things, but is not converted himself through pondering, study and serious searching, holding on to those 3 will become difficult and exhausting. Understanding the doctrine as to WHY see di these things takes away the exhaustion of doing them.

Elder David A Bednar gives a fantastic talk called "The Doctrine is the Answer"... but I can't find it so here is a link to someone making a similar statement and referencing Elder Bednar.

http://oneclimbs.com/2013/08/01/what-are-doctrines-principles-applications/

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Rob makes a great point in saying 

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

And how do they get there? My point is that someone truly faithful has no reason to worry whereas someone that neglects his neighbor, views porn occasionally, etc, is already on that road to apostacy and they may not even know why, when some random topic comes up and shakes their testimony and they claim "I went to church, I paid my tithing, I did my home or visiting teaching.

I personally have done this in the past when I have faced struggles or promised blessings were not met... I simply cannot take someone's word when they say "I did everything right and I still fell away". There is just TOO MUCH to consider in that phrase and only the person making the statement and God know for sure.

And when we talk about being "100% in", we are talking about the physical application of principles and not the personal understanding and conversion to the doctrines and principles. That is just as important as the application.

3 hours ago, skalenfehl said:

2. Take the Holy Spirit only for your guide (2 Nephi 32)

3. Be not deceived (prophets have been deceived from the Old Testament to D&C, including Joseph Smith who lost the 116 page manuscript).

If you have the Holy Ghost and do whatsoever it tells you, you will never be led astray. If you take the Holy Ghost only for your guide, you will discern deception from anyone. And you will abide the day of the Lord's coming. The following witness is from Nephi:

Be ye therefore wise

The Holy Ghost is not going to guide you in all things. Part of this life is to learn how to choose good over evil on our own. We are to be like Heavenly Father and he doesn't need to pray to find out what is good or evil. He has learned himself and we should too. A combination of the holy ghost and "be ye ptherefore wise" as you mentioned is essential.

I don't think we should put a pin in something that keeps someone in or drags someone out of the church. It is just too broad if a topic with far too many variables.

Edited by Fether

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17 minutes ago, Fether said:

The Holy Ghost is not going to guide you in all things.

Quote

Nephi: 5. For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

 

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4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Rob, I think your post is interesting, but I agree with Wade. It's just not that simple.

Actually it really is that simple.  But it just isn't so simple.

What I mean is:  His list essentially says: If you make sure you never fall away, then you'll never fall away.  Well, duh-uh.

EDIT:  oops.  I guess Wade beat me to the punch.

Edited by Carborendum

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Actually it really is that simple.  But it just isn't so simple.

What I mean is:  His list essentially says: If you make sure you never fall away, then you'll never fall away.  Well, duh-uh.

The issue is that we members rarely if ever get to know why someone fell away. We prefer to put them in little boxes because it makes us feel better about ourselves and the church. 

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

The issue is that we members rarely if ever get to know why someone fell away. We prefer to put them in little boxes because it makes us feel better about ourselves and the church. 

This is absolutely true.  We really don't.  The sad part is that they don't know either.

The sad truth is that of those that I knew well (and I've known very well more than a few who have left) the seeds of discontent were so subtle, so long term, and so pervasive that they themselves didn't even know why they were leaving.  They felt the discontent long before they ever left.  When they finally do leave, they don't even see the real reason why they left.  They think it was for a completely different reason.  They blamed it on something fairly obvious.  But the signs I saw were there before the obvious was ever around.

Anyone who thinks they're immune just doesn't know how the subtle works of the devil are.

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9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This is absolutely true.  We really don't.  The sad part is that they don't know either.

The sad truth is that of those that I knew well (and I've known very well more than a few who have left) the seeds of discontent were so subtle, so long term, and so pervasive that they themselves didn't even know why they were leaving.  They felt the discontent long before they ever left.  When they finally do leave, they don't even see the real reason why they left.  They think it was for a completely different reason.  They blamed it on something fairly obvious.  But the signs I saw were there before the obvious was ever around.

Anyone who thinks they're immune just doesn't know how the subtle works of the devil are.

Those falling away are never those who support the prophets and are diligent in being obedient to the prophets counsel and serve others.

I fell away several times and each time I can trace it back to those things. Of those whom I know who have fallen away its always the same. Never are they true saints or acting like it.

Edited by Rob Osborn

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