Security to never fall away from the church? Here it is.

[Anddenex]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Do you realize you got Rob and me to both agree on something?

[estradling75]

Just now, MormonGator said:

I don't go that far. Most non-members don't hate LDS, even if they don't understand them. The response I've most seen/heard is "Nice people, want them as my neighbor but no interest in joining. 

 

The other issue is that if you are convinced people will hate you, you generally act in ways to give them reasons to legitimately hate you. 

But that not what you said...  You said they will condemn us if we don't act, and condemn us if we do. 

The logical conclusion is if our actions(or lack there of) aren't going to change their response... then why should their response be considered a factor in what action we choose to take?

 

[NeuroTypical]

One of my top five enjoyable church experiences, is when I went on splits with the bishopric to go visit the Do-Not-Contact people.  

Frustrated people, totally unwilling to lift a finger to ease their own frustration.   

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

But that not what you said...  You said they will condemn us if we don't act, and condemn us if we do. 

The logical conclusion is if our actions(or lack there of) aren't going to change their response... then why should their response be considered a factor in what action we choose to take?

 

You are aware I was defending LDS, right? 

[estradling75]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You are aware I was defending LDS, right? 

I am... and I expanded on your statement... and then you went off on hating

 

If we can make a difference in peoples lives we should.  It is the Christ-like thing to do.

If we can't make a difference then why should their hostility be a factor in our choice?  We should still do what we think Christ would have us do.

Now we can't really know if we will make a difference. But as we see from the two statements above this lack of knowledge about their response does not change what our actions should be.

 

 

 

[Blueskye2]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

And yet, as you should well know, we plainly teach that miraculous occurrences are not a reliable means to know the truth of the gospel.

I just went wut?

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

I just went wut?

That's because you don't know LDS doctrine or the teachings of scripture.

[Blueskye2]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

I, for example, what to quantify the why of it to protect myself from doing the same.

FWIW, I was an atheist for the majority of my life. After my conversion to Catholicism, I had a fear that I would revert to atheism. My "antidote" was prayer. I prayed often for Jesus to keep me with Him, and the answer is abide in Him. After a few years, that fear left me, I never feel that way now. In faith, I found confidence that God keeps me with Him, through thick and thin, and all the mistakes I make and things I do, or fail do to do. 

It is a choice, but the world is full of compelling reasons to not abide in Him. Full of people who focus on the sin and mistakes of others, and not on showing genuine love for the person, with respect for the dignity in which God has made them. Which includes the gift of rational thinking and free will.

I see many people come into the Catholic Church, I see many of them don't stick around. Someone recently asked me if I make a guess, in my mind, of who will come and who will go. No, is my answer to that. God is with them, no matter where their journey takes them, and I pray their path leads them to the love of God. My prayer now, is that God keeps all the faithful with Him...that includes you.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Blueskye2

[Blueskye2]

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

That's because you don't know LDS doctrine or the teachings of scripture.

Surely, a Mormon testimony has a miraculous aspect to it, no?

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Surely, a Mormon testimony has a miraculous aspect to it, no?

If I understand you correctly, my answer is yes. A testimony is a revelation from God, and thus a "miraculous" event. But in general, miraculous occurrences per se do not and cannot reliably confirm gospel truths. Revelation from God, including testimony, can do that, but not general "miraculous occurrences". Witness a miraculous healing? Come out of a seemingly unsurvivable accident without a scratch? Get visted by and physically interact with an angel? These and many other plainly miraculous events have failed to give an enduring belief in the truthfulness of the gospel to armies of people who received them.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

That's true - Jesus Christ never fell away from the church.

The rest of us are at risk.

Exactly. We are. That was my point as well. @Rob Osborn the reason I said you are oversimplifying is because many who leave the church start with doubts.

Doubt is not something you chose like which outfit to put on in the morning. It just happens. It's part of living with a veil between us and Father.  

For example, what if you sit through a life time of talks/lessons/testimonies on tithing blessings...people getting miraculous financial help  BUT then you fall into economic hard times....lose a business, get a job, get laid off, get another job get laid off, all these in a span of about 3 years.  And you have health challenges too, along with a couple thousand dollars of health bills. 

But no worries cause you pay your tithing. No worries, but the strain continues until you find yourself in the Bishops office getting help. You do get help, but it's not the tithing miracle that you thought would happen. It makes you wonder and doubt a bit.....hopefully you can work through it.

What if you are gay, and you read Miracle of Forgiveness and see that Pres. Kimball called you an abomination. That hurts. And it makes you feel deep shame over something you cannot control (I mean your feelings not your actions) and/or it makes you begin to  question your leaders. Why did Pres. Kimball say that and the Leaders speak differently today? One might begin to doubt the Leaders. Hopefully they will work through it.

Doubt is not a choice. It's part of this life something we all have to deal with from ti.e to time and hopefully in the end we kept ourselves in the church. That's why our Leaders counsel us to read our scriptures and say our prayers daily to give us strength to overcome these doubts and trials when they come to us.

I agree with @MormonGator that we judge harshly those who fall away because of our own fears that we will fall away. But that is not the Savior's way. He would have us strengthen ourselves by seeking the lost sheep and loving them, not by watching them walk away then telling ourselves "they made bad choices."

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

One of my top five enjoyable church experiences, is when I went on splits with the bishopric to go visit the Do-Not-Contact people.  

Frustrated people, totally unwilling to lift a finger to ease their own frustration.   

NeuroTypical, I usually agree with you, but I have to disagree on this one.  I hate it when people show up at my door unannounced. Absolutely hate it. 

Then to add insult to injury, if the unannounced visitor is someone from that church that I Asked To Leave Me Alone....how agreeable do you think I'm going to be?  If I don't flat out slam door in their face, they'll be lucky. 

If I do talk to them, I will likely be extremely disagreeable. I will NOT believe at all that they actually care about ME. Nope, cause I've been in yourh presidency meetings where we are are told to visit the less actives.  Now as one of those less actives, I feel like a box to be checked. You aren't visiting me for me, out of love,  but out of duty.  

If I were less active...the best way to get me to listen would be to truly become my friend and that takes time (like friendship, visiting and home teaching) not a visit out of the blue by stangers.

[mordorbund]

3 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

You aren't visiting me for me, out of love,  but out of duty.

I've been married long enough to see a large overlap between the two.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

4 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I've been married long enough to see a large overlap between the two.

I like that. However, I'm an active,  temple recommend holding member,  so I'm not the one that needs convincing. I'm just passing on what I have gleaned learned from less active friends.

[Rob Osborn]

49 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Exactly. We are. That was my point as well. @Rob Osborn the reason I said you are oversimplifying is because many who leave the church start with doubts.

Doubt is not something you chose like which outfit to put on in the morning. It just happens. It's part of living with a veil between us and Father.  

For example, what if you sit through a life time of talks/lessons/testimonies on tithing blessings...people getting miraculous financial help  BUT then you fall into economic hard times....lose a business, get a job, get laid off, get another job get laid off, all these in a span of about 3 years.  And you have health challenges too, along with a couple thousand dollars of health bills. 

But no worries cause you pay your tithing. No worries, but the strain continues until you find yourself in the Bishops office getting help. You do get help, but it's not the tithing miracle that you thought would happen. It makes you wonder and doubt a bit.....hopefully you can work through it.

What if you are gay, and you read Miracle of Forgiveness and see that Pres. Kimball called you an abomination. That hurts. And it makes you feel deep shame over something you cannot control (I mean your feelings not your actions) and/or it makes you begin to  question your leaders. Why did Pres. Kimball say that and the Leaders speak differently today? One might begin to doubt the Leaders. Hopefully they will work through it.

Doubt is not a choice. It's part of this life something we all have to deal with from ti.e to time and hopefully in the end we kept ourselves in the church. That's why our Leaders counsel us to read our scriptures and say our prayers daily to give us strength to overcome these doubts and trials when they come to us.

 

Doubt comes because of a lack of faith. Lack of faith comes through disobedience. As we obey the commandments, follow and completely support the prophets and devote our energies to serving our neighbors the door of doubt never opens.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[Guest MormonGator]

51 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 

If I were less active...the best way to get me to listen would be to truly become my friend and that takes time (like friendship, visiting and home teaching) not a visit out of the blue by stangers.

AMEN. Perfectly said. 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

If I were less active...the best way to get me to listen would be to truly become my friend and that takes time (like friendship, visiting and home teaching) not a visit out of the blue by stangers.

That's fine.  But how do you spend time with someone who has said,"Don't visit me"?

Edited May 10, 2017 by Guest

[Blueskye2]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I was expressing my exasperation with the LDS family who just wouldn't leave me alone. Another family member told me that our LDS family see me like a toddler, who is sitting in the middle of a busy road, and who would just let a toddler sit there in the middle of a busy road? Of course, they're going to run out there and rescue me.

From the view of someone who left, there are times when personal boundaries are crossed. It's something that people have to learn to deal with, really. The above story, while condescending as all heck in some ways, helped me to deal. Because really, I love my family, and I know deeply in my soul, that me leaving the LDS Church is still painful for them. Still, decades later. I don't feel it is necessary to view their reactions and actions as dirty deeds. They are acting as who they are, and who they are, is who I love. Doesn't mean that sometimes, I just want to scream, but hey, that is what family is for.

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Blueskye2

[Anddenex]

40 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I like that. However, I'm an active,  temple recommend holding member,  so I'm not the one that needs convincing. I'm just passing on what I have gleaned learned from less active friends.

Less actives also need to allow people who are acting out of duty to become their friend. Recently I was assigned HT to a less active family. I knew they weren't interested, at this time, in a lesson so I would stop by to see how the family was doing. The father carried the stereotype on his shoulder that "ALL" home teachers only come out to duty. He never opened up although I was sincerely trying to become his friend. His daughter went to the same guitar lessons as my son, and I went early to watch his daughter play, not out of duty but to seek to be a friend. His stereotype of "ALL" home teachers was apparent. He wasn't interested in becoming my friend, because he only allowed himself to see my actions as a "dutiful home teacher."

I have another experience with a family that I was the only one able to get into the home. I am not sure why he opened the door to me, so willingly, but he did. Overtime, we became friends. I went ice fishing with him and did other things with the family. After I left, the EQP told me how they wanted home teachers now. When we put people in a "box" that includes less actives putting "ALL" home teachers within in "duty" not "sincere" care, they don't progress.

I am grateful for the opportunity to home teach, even out of duty, because out of duty I have made new friends that I would have never met because they were less active. I am also passing on from what I have experienced from less active friends, and less actives who were unwilling to become my friend because they only saw what I was doing as "duty."

[Maureen]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

...Its caused me to go in search of why people leave. Its not the history, not the polygamy, or the way Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, no, its those acts of disobedience that opens the door of doubt.

If LDS members were robots that might be a reason but they're not. Those who leave have as many diverse reasons as those who stay. If you really want to know why they leave, ask them.

M.

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's fine.  But how do you get to know someone who has said,"Don't visit me"?

You find some way to interact, some other person to visit, etc.

Reminds me of a neighbor who have fallen away and want nothing to do with the church. But, my wife came to know them through her job and became close friends. So, my wife requested to have her put on her visiting teacher list. I call it a type of miracle, things happen for a reason (why they moved there, why we moved there, why my wife got a job there, etc)

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's fine.  But how do you spend time with someone who has said,"Don't visit me"?

Very good question. To me, it's like saying "How do I make someone trust me again after I cheated on them?" Well, the best way to do that is don't cheat on them in the first place. Work on relationships so that you don't get to that point. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Maureen said:

If LDS members were robots that might be a reason but they're not. Those who leave have as many diverse reasons as those who stay. If you really want to know why they leave, ask them.

M.

In every case, that I have found, and I do ask and seek the "real reasons" for them leaving the church, it invariably comes down to that person or persons not willing to put forth the effort of obedience to basic commandments, faith in the prophets counsel, and diligence in serving others. Sadly, they always blame it on other reasons like church history, polgymay, the priesthood, patriarchy, etc. But, I have found that in every case you can see multiple areas where they have basic acts of disobedience in their lives.

We all have faults and all have issues we are working on, but, there is a line that is easily seen when living righteously where it stands and how to avoid it. 

[Blueskye2]

9 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Less actives also need to allow people who are acting out of duty to become their friend. Recently I was assigned HT to a less active family. I knew they weren't interested, at this time, in a lesson so I would stop by to see how the family was doing. The father carried the stereotype on his shoulder that "ALL" home teachers only come out to duty. He never opened up although I was sincerely trying to become his friend. His daughter went to the same guitar lessons as my son, and I went early to watch his daughter play, not out of duty but to seek to be a friend. His stereotype of "ALL" home teachers was apparent. He wasn't interested in becoming my friend, because he only allowed himself to see my actions as a "dutiful home teacher."

I have another experience with a family that I was the only one able to get into the home. I am not sure why he opened the door to me, so willingly, but he did. Overtime, we became friends. I went ice fishing with him and did other things with the family. After I left, the EQP told me how they wanted home teachers now. When we put people in a "box" that includes less actives putting "ALL" home teachers within in "duty" not "sincere" care, they don't progress.

I am grateful for the opportunity to home teach, even out of duty, because out of duty I have made new friends that I would have never met because they were less active. I am also passing on from what I have experienced from less active friends, and less actives who were unwilling to become my friend because they only saw what I was doing as "duty."

Sorry, it's seen as out of duty, because there is no interest in friendship, at all, until duty calls. Your own example, shows that you did not seek friendship until you were assigned to do so.

[NightSG]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's fine.  But how do you spend time with someone who has said,"Don't visit me"?

Well, if you're my last couple of bishops, you put a light pencil line through their names on the list, rather than blacking them out completely with Sharpie like the ones who have specifically threatened or actually obtained criminal trespass warnings.

Because, you know, not respecting someone's specific request to leave them alone unless they threaten criminal charges is such a great way to show how much you care.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Blueskye2 said:

Surely, a Mormon testimony has a miraculous aspect to it, no?

 

1 hour ago, Vort said:

If I understand you correctly, my answer is yes. A testimony is a revelation from God, and thus a "miraculous" event. But in general, miraculous occurrences per se do not and cannot reliably confirm gospel truths. Revelation from God, including testimony, can do that, but not general "miraculous occurrences". Witness a miraculous healing? Come out of a seemingly unsurvivable accident without a scratch? Get visted by and physically interact with an angel? These and many other plainly miraculous events have failed to give an enduring belief in the truthfulness of the gospel to armies of people who received them.

To be fair, "miraculous" is in the eye of the beholder. And it is NOT in any regard validation of truth. What we consider "miraculous" are things we see that are beyond our understanding. If we traveled back in time with a flashlight or the like everyone would think it miraculous that we could create light out of a magic stick. Use a flashlight now and no one thinks "a miracle!". Moreover, deception can create the illusion of the miraculous. And, even more important, because we do not understand the "spirit" existence of Satan and his minions, if he interacts with us it is, by our understanding of natural events, miraculous.

The miraculous-ness of a revelation from God is irrelevant. It is, indeed, miraculous. But it is not the miracle of it that validates truth. It is God telling us what can only come from God.

Edited May 10, 2017 by The Folk Prophet