Security to never fall away from the church? Here it is.

[priesthoodpower]

On 5/11/2017 at 3:15 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

@priesthoodpower you seem to be confusing testimony and faith. They are not the same thing AT ALL. A testimony is, literally, the testifying of something that one has witnessed. It has nothing to do with faith. Take Laman and Lemuel. They could testify that an angel had appeared to them. They could testify that they were shocked by the power of God. They had testimonies. They did not have faith. This is another point behind the idea that faith is NOT belief.

So are you saying that all the members that get up in church and say "I testify that Jesus is the Christ and JS was a true prophet of God" literally saw JC and JS? They obviously did not so it is based on their belief and faith that they testify and according to dictionary.com belief and faith are similar.

Faith:

1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2.belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3.belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

4.belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

5 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

 

I have recently learned to not be so pessimistic about the eternities or the salvation of others because NO ONE knows the intricate details.

 

I agree.  According to Elder Oaks' classic talk on judging, that is precisely the kind of judgment we are commanded not to make.  

[The Folk Prophet]

12 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

So are you saying that all the members that get up in church and say "I testify that Jesus is the Christ and JS was a true prophet of God" literally saw JC and JS?

No. I am saying that when you testify that Jesus is the Christ what you are witness to is the Spirit having told you so.

Obviously.

Edited May 15, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

Truly, here is the scriptural basis as to what we need to do to never fall away, as well as the scriptural basis for how to fall away:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/4-ne/1?lang=eng

Edited May 15, 2017 by Guest

[priesthoodpower]

8 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No. I am saying that when you testify that Jesus is the Christ what you are witness to is the Spirit having told you so.

Obviously.

In the LDS church testimony and faith are the same thing, why? because half the membership (mostly everyone under the age of 20) dont know what the spirit feels like and are baring their testimony on faith and belief. You were fortunate enough (as you mentioned in other posts) to have a distinct revelation from the spirit of the divinity of JC, so you can categorize your "testimony" as 100% fact but not everyone is like you.

[The Folk Prophet]

14 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

In the LDS church testimony and faith are the same thing

Okay...you just keep thinking that.

[Anddenex]

22 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

In the LDS church testimony and faith are the same thing...

This would be incorrect. A testimony is what we have learned through our faith, or a declaration of what an individual has come to know. I believe @The Folk Prophet has shared proper distinctions between faith and testimony.

Laman and Lemuel could bear testimony of an angel visiting them, yet they did not have the faith to exercise, as did Nephi, regarding the words of the angel regarding Laban. Nephi had faith and testimony. Laman and Lemuel could only testify, as they did not have the faith and were not faithful.

[Guest]

On 5/15/2017 at 6:27 PM, priesthoodpower said:

half the membership (mostly everyone under the age of 20) dont know what the spirit feels like and are baring their testimony on faith and belief.

I have a different take than my brethren here.  But I still don't agree with the statement that they are the same.What you are describing here is:

Quote

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

D&C 46:13-14

This may be semantics, but I don't think Laman and Lemuel had a "spiritual testimony".  It is the difference between the "testimony" of the 8 Witnesses vs the 3 Witnesses.

It is impossible to have a testimony except through the Holy Ghost.  What the D&C reference above refers to is that some don't get the "ah-hah" moment to know that Jesus is the Savior.  But they do get a spiritual confirmation that when a parent, or teacher, or Prophet is giving their testimony of the Savior, that they know they are hearing the truth.  Yet, this is only a preparatory gift.  You can't remain in this state forever.  You eventually need to move on to the level where you know of yourself that Jesus is the Christ.

Yet, all these things are gifts of the Spirit.  We can seek them.  We can pray for them.  We can be dedicated to doing good works.  But at the end of the day, we don't necessarily "earn" these gifts any more than we "earn" salvation.  They are gifts of God just as salvation is.

We know we need to pray with all the energy of soul to be blessed with Charity.  Don't we also need to pray with all the energy of soul to receive any Gift of the Spirit? 

Quote

... the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Cor 12:7

 

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yet, all these things are gifts of the Spirit.  We can seek them.  We can pray for them.  We can be dedicated to doing good works.  But at the end of the day, we don't necessarily "earn" these gifts any more than we "earn" salvation.  They are gifts of God just as salvation is.

 

Excellent and insightful statement.