Security to never fall away from the church? Here it is.


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2 hours ago, skalenfehl said:

I don't believe I said the Holy Ghost will guide you in all things. I do believe, however, that all the things the Holy Ghost tells you to do, you should do. There is a distinction between the two. 

Im sorry, what I was simply suggesting Was that there is more to it than simply doing what the Holy Ghost tells us. Here is my source.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks_revelation/

 

40 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Unbelievable. I will keep things to myself I guess.

Please continue to speak up! We, here at Mormon Hub, can be pretty brutal to eachother. A few of us, including myself, can get rather opinionated and cause offense. We aren't always tolerant or respectful of the thoughts someone posts online. I'm sorry for anything I have said, said, and may say in the future. 

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9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I copied this post from someone. It literally proves the point-

"I struggled for years before I finally left the church and for about a year before I did decide to leave, I was all in. I was preparing for the temple. I was not just reading the Book of Mormon, I was studying it and writing journal entries about what I felt. I was going to church and praying for my doubts to disappear and to be able to overlook all the hurtful things that the GAs were doing and saying. And you know what happened? Not a damn thing.

Was it because of a character flaw that I didn't get the "right" answer to my prayers?"

 

Had this person not had hurtful feelings with the prophets they wouldnt have fallen away. They were not obedient in their faith.

As opposed to people who leave their childhood religion for Mormonism? Similar stories, in the context of the particular religion that was left, are told by now-Mormons...on this very forum.

People act according to their conscience, for the most part, when leaving, joining, or participating in religion. I stopped, ages ago, trying to figure out the reasons. It just is. 

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18 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

On a debate on a different board I have been debating with those who fall away or are in the process of it. Three things are always disregarded in a persons decay away from the church into inactivity or leaving the church. Here they are

1. Complete support for the prophets and their counsel

2. Obedience to the commandments

3. Serving your neighbor always, whoever it may be with the pure love of Christ

Any lack or slack of one or combination of those three will always lead to falling away from the church. No person, having perfect faith and obedience to the prophets and commandments while serving others with the pure love of Christ, has ever fallen away from the church.

This reminds me of the Lord's words in scripture through Alma, "And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works." (Alma 7:24) If we are always abounding in good works, we will never fall away, because all things "good" are from God, especially if we are abounding in true faith, hope, and charity.

This statement also reminds me of the first two great commandments. If we truly love God, putting him first (highlighting the first two points), and then loving our neighbor as ourselves (third point), we will never fall away. The gospel is really this simple.

We are taught disregarding prophetic counsel is one of the main signs toward the road to apostasy. We see this throughout scripture. If we fail to learn from scriptural history we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes and the same mistakes in the Book of Mormon, meant for our day, are occurring today.

This also reminds me of the following verse of scripture, "For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;" (Moses 6:60) Through keeping the commandments (baptismal covenant-love of God-love thy neighbor), our actions are justified and we will always have his Spirit to be with us (ultimately obtaining a more sure word of prophecy), and we receive the blood that sanctifies (atonement-second comforter). I love how verses of scripture so nicely weave themselves together. If we honor this scripture, one will never fall way either.

Edited by Anddenex
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This life is a test to see if we will "Choose to do all things"

So ultimately the reason someone stays or goes boils down to "They choose to."

Now I know that there will be many that stay and recite stories about people never choose... it just sort of happened, and there was not a singular choice.  I would point out that not all of our choices are major.  Most are very minor, they are a singular drop of water in the ocean or a singular grain of sand on the beach.  Unimportant and unremarkable.

But these "unimportant and unremarkable" choices add up over time.  If you change enough of the drops of water you can change the nature of the ocean.  If you change enough of the grains of sand you change the nature of the beach.  Same with us we can change our nature not just with big important choices but with the cumulative effect of all our little choices.

This cumulative change can be hard to notice.  Some times an outside event can call our attention to it, bringing everything crashing down.  In those cases we like to "blame the event" as the cause, but it is not really so.  Other times we do notice and it takes us by surprise and leaves us confused by how we got here, because we did not make a "Choice" to be here.

So it seems to me the way to be secure is to ask ourselves are all our choices, Godly choices, even the ones we think are unimportant?  And then choose to change that which is not.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, NightSG said:

In large part because it's so rarely asked outside the context of "help me understand how to tell you you're wrong."

No, I don't agree.  Now, let me tell you why you're wrong.;)

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12 hours ago, MormonGator said:

The issue is that we members rarely if ever get to know why someone fell away. We prefer to put them in little boxes because it makes us feel better about ourselves and the church. 

The implication here is that our determination to understand why some fall away is about putting others down so we can build ourselves up -- related to pride and looking down our noses at others.

Whereas I wouldn't contend that is NEVER the case, I do not believe that is the primary motivation why faithful members, in general, seek the why of apostasy.

I, for example, what to quantify the why of it to protect myself from doing the same. If we accept agency then it follows that falling away, ultimately, is a choice (or, perhaps, a result of choices). So knowing what choices lead to this is important in order to protect ourselves. I would expect that this is @Rob Osborn's point ultimately. Nor do I think the general response that the idea is tautological is valid. If so then Christ was tautological too. In essence, the OP's contention is that faith, obedience and service are key. I might debate the idea that service is distinct from obedience...but that's not really important.

Edit: I do think the conclusion that imperfection in these matters guarantees falling away is mistaken. As @Vort said, if that's true, we're all doomed.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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An extreme example but an example nonetheless-

Had a neighbor who started to fall away, started blaming all of church history for why they werent coming anymore. Turns out he was secretly a transexual who then came out. He claims his life is so much better now. But, I saw him and his wife in the restaurant and we talked and the light of Christ was faded, their language was obtusive and hurtful, their overall body language was tired and old looking. The problem is, just like the frogs in the boiling pot, they had got themselves into this one small step at a time and they honestly believed they were so much more happy now. The sad part is, they use things like church history, polygamy, etc, as an excuse for why they left. They all seem to do so. Thats kind of my point in this post is that it is disobedience that opens the door to doubt, and once open, that doubt justifies one further in their sin, they slip into that pot of water with the other frogs not knowing their demise.

The last time I started falling away I started taking my family out on Sunday to the movies, to dinner, etc. After a while it was like- "who is the prophet to tell me what I can or cant do on Sunday". Lucky for me we soon moved to a new ward where service work was in abundance and an aggressive bishop who welcomed us with open arms and put us to work. Its caused me to go in search of why people leave. Its not the history, not the polygamy, or the way Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, no, its those acts of disobedience that opens the door of doubt.

 

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30 minutes ago, NightSG said:

In large part because it's so rarely asked outside the context of "help me understand how to tell you you're wrong."

I totally agree, and it's on both sides. The "fallen away" LDS wants to tell all active members why they are mindless sheep and the active LDS wants to save the souls of those who have fallen away. Do you really think you'll get an honest and open dialogue between the two? Really? 

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37 minutes ago, NightSG said:

In large part because it's so rarely asked outside the context of "help me understand how to tell you you're wrong."

If one knows the gospel is true and another that the one loves has abandoned that truth, why would one approach those they love with any other approach than to make their best effort to help the person they love find the truth again (which, ultimately, equates to leaving the wrongness of their path away from the truth)?

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

I totally agree, and it's on both sides. The "fallen away" LDS wants to tell all active members why they are mindless sheep and the active LDS wants to save the souls of those who have fallen away. Do you really think you'll get an honest and open dialogue between the two? Really? 

I don't follow how these two things must lead to mealy-mouthed dishonesty.

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11 hours ago, Vort said:

The first rule of Tautology Club is the Tautology Club's first rule.

This literally made me laugh out loud. 
(I'm still chuckling about it a few minutes later. Awesome) 

Edited by MormonGator
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5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If one knows the gospel is true and another one loves has abandoned that truth, why would one approach those they love with any other approach than to make their best effort to help the person they love find the truth again (which, ultimately, equates to leaving the wrongness of their path away from the truth)?

How do you feel if a bunch of Southern Baptists constantly did the same to you?  Showing up on your doorstep at least once a month, catching you in the grocery store, etc.

Remember, every devout follower of any religion knows that their path is the true one.  Many, from every religious group I've had any significant interaction with, including those outside Judeo-Christianity, have personally witnessed miraculous occurrences to back it up.  

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8 minutes ago, NightSG said:

How do you feel if a bunch of Southern Baptists constantly did the same to you?  Showing up on your doorstep at least once a month, catching you in the grocery store, etc.

Remember, every devout follower of any religion knows that their path is the true one.  Many, from every religious group I've had any significant interaction with, including those outside Judeo-Christianity, have personally witnessed miraculous occurrences to back it up.  

You know that's not a fair comparison.  There is harassment and there is earnest effort.  There is Gay-bashing and there is preaching that homosexual activity is a sin.  It's more a question of diplomacy than the topic or position.

Edited by Guest
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6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You know that's not a fair comparison.  There is harassment and there is earnest effort.  There is Gay-bashing and there is preaching that homosexual activity is a sin.  It's more a question of diplomacy than the topic or position.


LDS are in a catch-22 sometimes. If they don't interact with you, they don't care about you. If they visit you more than once a month, they are harassing you. 

And I agree, "harassment" is a very harsh term. 

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2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

This reminds me of the Lord's words in scripture through Alma, "And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works." (Alma 7:24) If we are always abounding in good works, we will never fall away, because all things "good" are from God, especially if we are abounding in true faith, hope, and charity.

This statement also reminds me of the first two great commandments. If we truly love God, putting him first (highlighting the first two points), and then loving our neighbor as ourselves (third point), we will never fall away. The gospel is really this simple.

We are taught disregarding prophetic counsel is one of the main signs toward the road to apostasy. We see this throughout scripture. If we fail to learn from scriptural history we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes and the same mistakes in the Book of Mormon, meant for our day, are occurring today.

This also reminds me of the following verse of scripture, "For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;" (Moses 6:60) Through keeping the commandments (baptismal covenant-love of God-love thy neighbor), our actions are justified and we will always have his Spirit to be with us (ultimately obtaining a more sure word of prophecy), and we receive the blood that sanctifies (atonement-second comforter). I love how verses of scripture so nicely weave themselves together. If we honor this scripture, one will never fall way either.

Do you realize you got Rob and me to both agree on something?

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14 minutes ago, NightSG said:

How do you feel if a bunch of Southern Baptists constantly did the same to you?  Showing up on your doorstep at least once a month, catching you in the grocery store, etc.

I thought we were talking about listening with an eye of showing someone that they're wrong. What does the grocery store have to do with it?

16 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Remember, every devout follower of any religion knows that their path is the true one. 

And, accordingly, I would expect them to listen with that same eye of showing me that I'm wrong.

17 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Many, from every religious group I've had any significant interaction with, including those outside Judeo-Christianity, have personally witnessed miraculous occurrences to back it up.  

And yet, as you should well know, we plainly teach that miraculous occurrences are not a reliable means to know the truth of the gospel.

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8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You know that's not a fair comparison.  There is earnest effort and there is harassment.

How is a Southern Baptist genuinely concerned for your soul stopping by monthly any less harassing than HTs, VTs, missionaries, the bishop and a random deacon, etc. each showing up on your doorstep once a month?  The only real difference is the Baptist is likely doing it of his own volition rather than being assigned to do it.

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There is Gay-bashing and there is preaching that homosexual activity is a sin. 

At what point does repeatedly bringing up the same topic go from "preaching" to "bashing?"  Most would be inclined to say it's at the point where the audience clearly no longer cares to hear it, which is pretty much the second or third time it's brought up in nearly every case.

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4 minutes ago, NightSG said:

How is a Southern Baptist genuinely concerned for your soul stopping by monthly any less harassing than HTs, VTs, missionaries, the bishop and a random deacon, etc. each showing up on your doorstep once a month?  The only real difference is the Baptist is likely doing it of his own volition rather than being assigned to do it.

Anyone who considers their fellow Mormons to be harassing them has two simple ways to stop them.  It's possible the missionaries won't know these have been done, but missionaries are easy to get rid of.

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18 minutes ago, NightSG said:

How is a Southern Baptist genuinely concerned for your soul stopping by monthly any less harassing than HTs, VTs, missionaries, the bishop and a random deacon, etc. each showing up on your doorstep once a month?  The only real difference is the Baptist is likely doing it of his own volition rather than being assigned to do it.

It isn't.  Why would it be?  If a Southern Baptist wants to come to my house each month and drop off a message, I'll listen.  We have a couple of JWs who come to our home a couple times a month.  They're pleasant, and we listen.  If they get rude, I'll boot them out physically if I have to and threaten additional bodily harm if they ever try it again.

And I disagree with your assessment of a SB being sincere any more than a home teacher.

18 minutes ago, NightSG said:

At what point does repeatedly bringing up the same topic go from "preaching" to "bashing?"  Most would be inclined to say it's at the point where the audience clearly no longer cares to hear it, which is pretty much the second or third time it's brought up in nearly every case.

I would agree.  So, what's your point?

If someone repeatedly brings up a topic I don't wish to discuss -- ANY topic, be it religious, political, sexual, or anything else -- I make sure I let them know in no uncertain terms that I don't want to hear it anymore.  And if they persist, I can take further steps including legal action.

In the case of a home teacher, bishop, etc... If you feel that badly about it, why haven't you sent in your letter of resignation?  They'll stop bothering you.  As long as you're on the records of the Church, you have a recorded, established relationship with the Church.  This gives them the motivation to keep trying.  

Words are words.  Action is action.  If their words are getting to the point of harassment, then that is an action.  You need to take action against it if you find it objectionable.

Edited by Guest
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3 minutes ago, zil said:

Anyone who considers their fellow Mormons to be harassing them has two simple ways to stop them.  It's possible the missionaries won't know these have been done, but missionaries are easy to get rid of.

And most are really polite about it too. If you tell them, "Not interested." 99% won't follow you around throwing Books of Mormon at you. They'll say "Thank you, you are in our prayers." 

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18 minutes ago, MormonGator said:


LDS are in a catch-22 sometimes. If they don't interact with you, they don't care about you. If they visit you more than once a month, they are harassing you. 

And I agree, "harassment" is a very harsh term. 

And if we are going to be hated and condemned by them for what ever action we take... Why shouldn't we then focus on doing what we feel it right?

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6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And if we are going to be hated and condemned by them for what ever action we take... Why shouldn't we then focus on doing what we feel it right?

I don't go that far. Most non-members don't hate LDS, even if they don't understand them. The response I've most seen/heard is "Nice people, want them as my neighbor but no interest in joining." 

 

The other issue is that if you are convinced people will hate you, you generally act in ways to give them reasons to legitimately hate you. I speak from personal experience on this. 

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