Security to never fall away from the church? Here it is.

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Very good question. To me, it's like saying "How do I make someone trust me again after I cheated on them?" Well, the best way to do that is don't cheat on them in the first place. Work on relationships so that you don't get to that point. 

I am not sure this is the best analogy. The Church didn't "cheat" anyone. The relationship is already at this point, so not getting the relationship to this point is already past. The question is when the relationship is now at this point, how do you spend time?

Although I fully agree with the following, "Work on relationships so that you don't get to that point," and that is a key and something the Church is trying to help the members understand, and yet at the same time, people are responsible for their salvation, and when someone wants a relationship to break, no matter the actions to keep, they will estrange themselves with any excuse that allows their conscience to feel peace in their decision.

This is why your previous comment nails a hard aspect regarding a catch 22. We don't care if we don't try. If we try we are harassing. Been there.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I am not sure this is the best analogy. The Church didn't "cheat" anyone. The relationship is already at this point, so not getting the relationship to this point is already past. The question is when the relationship is now at this point, how do you spend time?

Although I fully agree with the following, "Work on relationships so that you don't get to that point," and that is a key and something the Church is trying to help the members understand, and yet at the same time, people are responsible for their salvation, and when someone wants a relationship to break, no matter the actions to keep, they will estrange themselves with any excuse that allows their conscience to feel peace in their decision.

This is why your previous comment nails a hard aspect regarding a catch 22. We don't care if we don't try. If we try we are harassing. Been there.

One, thank you for the compliment about my catch-22 comment. 

Two, no, the church doesn't cheat anyone. I was trying to explain how it's often times easier to prevent an issue than to cure it. 

Three-I agree with you completely that the people are responsible for their own salvation, for sure and if someone wants a relationship to break, no matter what, it will break. 

[Anddenex]

16 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Sorry, it's seen as out of duty, because there is no interest in friendship, at all, until duty calls. Your own example, shows that you did not seek friendship until you were assigned to do so.

False, and clearly false. Moving forward out of duty does not mean there is not interest in friendship. Completely and totally false, my own life experience proves your statement a fallacy.

When duty calls because of a disaster to a "stranger" I assume my intent is not sincere and no interest in being sincere. Please, review your thoughts more closely as you are completely and utterly wrong.

EDIT: Then how did I become a friend with the second experience if there was "no interest" in becoming a friend because I initially acted in the duty and office I have been called? Hmmm... Ya, you are completely wrong.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Anddenex

[The Folk Prophet]

So God has commanded us not to doubt (repeatedly), and He has also plainly stated that He gives no commandment save He shall provide a way to fulfill it, and yet we have no choice in the matter as to whether we doubt?

Makes sense.

[Blueskye2]

Just now, Anddenex said:

False, and clearly false. Moving forward out of duty does not mean there is not interest in friendship. Completely and totally false, my own life experience proves your statement a fallacy.

When duty calls because of a disaster to a "stranger" I assume my intent is not sincere and no interest in being sincere. Please, review your thoughts more closely.

Mormons are weird! Sorry, that's all I can say to viewing friendship as akin to helping a stranger with disaster relief.

[NightSG]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

One of my top five enjoyable church experiences, is when I went on splits with the bishopric to go visit the Do-Not-Contact people.  

Frustrated people, totally unwilling to lift a finger to ease their own frustration.   

You know, when my ex girlfriend from way back texts me wanting to get back together after I've told her to lose my number, I get frustrated too.

Though in their shoes, I'd be far more inclined to lift a couple of busybodies who can't take simple instructions over the porch rail.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

29 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Doubt comes because of a lack of faith. Lack of faith comes through disobedience. As we obey the commandments, follow and completely support the prophets and devote our energies to serving our neighbors the door of doubt never opens.

It helps you to think of it that way, doesn't it?  Then if you just have enough faith you'll be fine.  PHEW.  Only what is "enough faith".  I don't think anyone on this board is moving any mountains any time soon, so we ALL lack faith, every single one of us.  Yes, that's why we are counseled to obey the commandments etc as you said, but that doesn't make us bulletproof.  A lifetime of exercising faith, and overcoming doubts is what makes us bulletprooof.  

If you want to be safe, to be sure YOU won't be the one to fall away, the best advice I have is to be HUMBLE.  Rely upon the Lord, not yourself. 

23 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's fine.  But how do you spend time with someone who has said,"Don't visit me"?

MG and Rob had great suggestions.  Also, BOUNDARIES, if they say, "don't visit me" then don't visit. Pray for them and ask the Lord to open up another way, but respect their boundary.

20 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Less actives also need to allow people who are acting out of duty to become their friend. Recently I was assigned HT to a less active family. I knew they weren't interested, at this time, in a lesson so I would stop by to see how the family was doing.

But Anddenex, you can only change yourself, not them.  My point was only to give another point of view.  Do you become friends with every Jehovah's Witness that comes to your door?  Invite them in, offer them milk and cookies, and truly listen to their message.  No, I don't either.  Because we have our religion and we are content.  Why should that less active family allow you to become their friend?  I mean what motivation do THEY have?  We know why we visit them, but that doesn't not obligate them to accept the gesture of friendship.  Don't misunderstand me, I have a good friend who was reactivated by visiting teachers.  So I know it can and does happen, and I'm grateful for that.  However, visiting and home teachers visited my mom all of her life. Some of them she truly became friends with some not. But she never came back to church.  Sometimes that happens too.  The best we can do is love people and respect their agency to make their own choices. 

[Anddenex]

Just now, Blueskye2 said:

Mormons are weird! Sorry, that's all I can say to viewing friendship as akin to helping a stranger with disaster relief.

It appears simple truths pass your understanding. Roman Catholics then must be weird!

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, LiterateParakeet said:

Then if you just have enough faith you'll be fine.

Well...yeah.

[NightSG]

5 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I don't think anyone on this board is moving any mountains any time soon,

I moved part of a hill with a skid steer a few weeks back, does that count?

(Most of the earnest praying was done by the folks who had to be anywhere near me, though; that machine is really touchy and not the control layout I'm used to.)

Quote

Then if you just have enough faith you'll be fine.

We're back to tautology club again.  If you always have lots of extra money, you'll never be broke, either.

Edited May 10, 2017 by NightSG

[Blueskye2]

Just now, Anddenex said:

It appears simple truths pass your understanding. Roman Catholics then must be weird!

It appears to me you're full of yourself.

 

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, LiterateParakeet said:

But Anddenex, you can only change yourself, not them.  My point was only to give another point of view.  Do you become friends with every Jehovah's Witness that comes to your door?  Invite them in, offer them milk and cookies, and truly listen to their message.  No, I don't either.  Because we have our religion and we are content.  Why should that less active family allow you to become their friend?  I mean what motivation do THEY have?  We know why we visit them, but that doesn't not obligate them to accept the gesture of friendship.  Don't misunderstand me, I have a good friend who was reactivated by visiting teachers.  So I know it can and does happen, and I'm grateful for that.  However, visiting and home teachers visited my mom all of her life. Some of them she truly became friends with some not. But she never came back to church.  Sometimes that happens too.  The best we can do is love people and respect their agency to make their own choices. 

Yes. I invite any religious person into my home and listen to their message, as I don't want to be like the many people on my mission I met. The last JW that knocked on my door didn't want to come in although I invited them into my home. I want my family to experience other religions and what they teach and to witness the sincerity of their beliefs. One of my fondest memories on my mission is from a Methodist who noticed two missionaries in 120 degree summer weather who invited us into their home. His first statement, "I am not interested in your message Elders, but I fully respect your dedication. We have some water and in about 5 minutes we will have a cake." We declined the cake and to this day I wish I hadn't, because after we left I realized they had noticed we were knocking doors and soon would be at their house. The cake was for us. Two missionaries, not of their faith, but they acted in great respect and love. They taught me a wonderful and valuable lesson.

Why shouldn't the less active allow people to become their friend? I have become friends with many less actives, those who I don't home teach who are my neighbors, and those I have been assigned to home teach. I love my next door neighbor, one of which is less active. He and I will go fishing and we will have BBQs. He and his wife are the best neighbors and they spoil my children like they are their grandchildren.

 

[Guest Godless]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Exactly. We are. That was my point as well. @Rob Osborn the reason I said you are oversimplifying is because many who leave the church start with doubts.

Doubt is not something you chose like which outfit to put on in the morning. It just happens. It's part of living with a veil between us and Father.  

For example, what if you sit through a life time of talks/lessons/testimonies on tithing blessings...people getting miraculous financial help  BUT then you fall into economic hard times....lose a business, get a job, get laid off, get another job get laid off, all these in a span of about 3 years.  And you have health challenges too, along with a couple thousand dollars of health bills. 

But no worries cause you pay your tithing. No worries, but the strain continues until you find yourself in the Bishops office getting help. You do get help, but it's not the tithing miracle that you thought would happen. It makes you wonder and doubt a bit.....hopefully you can work through it.

What if you are gay, and you read Miracle of Forgiveness and see that Pres. Kimball called you an abomination. That hurts. And it makes you feel deep shame over something you cannot control (I mean your feelings not your actions) and/or it makes you begin to  question your leaders. Why did Pres. Kimball say that and the Leaders speak differently today? One might begin to doubt the Leaders. Hopefully they will work through it.

Doubt is not a choice. It's part of this life something we all have to deal with from ti.e to time and hopefully in the end we kept ourselves in the church. That's why our Leaders counsel us to read our scriptures and say our prayers daily to give us strength to overcome these doubts and trials when they come to us.

I agree 100% with this. I ultimately left the church because I came to the realization that I didn't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, but that's nowhere near where my journey to apostasy began. It started with small doubts. I was going beyond just checking off boxes, I genuinely wanted to believe and have a strong testimony. I adhered to the church's commandments to the best of my ability. I gladly participated in any service opportunities I could. I had myself utterly convinced that it was all true. But I didn't feel it on a spiritual level. That's how the little doubts crept in, eventually leading to bigger doubts, and ultimately leading me to the conclusion that I had been fooling myself all along. 

I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again for the benefit of some of our newer members. For many apostates, especially those like me who were born and raised in the gospel, losing a testimony is the hardest and most terrifying experience imaginable. It's no small task to walk away from a worldview that you've known and accepted since you were a small child, not knowing what you're going to replace it with. In my case, my desire for spiritual confirmation went from a yearning to strengthen my testimony of things I had learned to a desperate attempt to cling on to something familiar rather than giving in to the unknown. 10+ years later, I regret nothing. I've reshaped my worldview in a way that makes sense to me and leaves me free of doubt or spiritual thirst. 

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

NeuroTypical, I usually agree with you, but I have to disagree on this one.  I hate it when people show up at my door unannounced. Absolutely hate it. 

Then to add insult to injury, if the unannounced visitor is someone from that church that I Asked To Leave Me Alone....how agreeable do you think I'm going to be?  If I don't flat out slam door in their face, they'll be lucky. 

If I do talk to them, I will likely be extremely disagreeable. I will NOT believe at all that they actually care about ME. Nope, cause I've been in yourh presidency meetings where we are are told to visit the less actives.  Now as one of those less actives, I feel like a box to be checked. You aren't visiting me for me, out of love,  but out of duty.  

If I were less active...the best way to get me to listen would be to truly become my friend and that takes time (like friendship, visiting and home teaching) not a visit out of the blue by stangers.

I've always been patient with missionaries, EQPs, and HTs. I understood that they were just checking off their boxes, just like I used to do. Sometimes I'd even pour myself a beer and let them say their piece. I had been immersed in that culture my whole life, so it didn't bother me much. My wife is less patient. She didn't grow up in LDS culture, she married into it. And somehow they suddenly stopped coming by when I was home the moment she moved in, so she was always the one dealing with them (and she slammed the door on them more than once). We agreed to put a stop to it since they weren't having any contact with me personally at that point and I really wasn't interested in having any continued attempts to be contacted. When we asked to not be contacted anymore and they kept calling and stopping by (which at that point became harassment), I sent a letter to the EQP explaining my reasons for staying on the books (family) and made it clear that I would resign from the church if the harassment continued, though I would prefer not to go that route. We haven't heard from them since. 

Another interesting/alarming practice that we learned about when my sister was on her mission was "love-bombing". She explained it, to our horror, in one of her P-day emails. I don't recall if they were tracting or trying to reach an inactive member, but either way they were knocking on a door and heard movement inside, so they knew someone was home. They came back later and covered the front door with paper hearts with gospel messages written on them. I don't know about you, but I would be hunting down the mission president with a restraining order if that happened to me.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I have to get off the computer and tend to other life business for awhile.  But first!  I recommend this talk by Pres. Uchtdorf:  Come, Join with Us.  I love his loving approach, and his gentle understanding.

To the question why would someone leave he says:

Quote

Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

It's not that simple...hmmm, I think that has come up in this thread, LOL

About having questions:

Quote

In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth.

Regarding church history:

Quote

 

We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history—along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events—there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.

Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience.

 

I love that he is so understanding and acknowledging that, yes, there are things that could cause questions.

This is what he says about doubt:

Some might ask, “But what about my doubts?”

Quote

 

It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true.7

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.8 We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Notice he said "It's NATURAL to have questions.  It's part of honest inquiry! Then he gives some advice how to work through it.  And all so lovingly.  Pres. Uchtdorf is awesome.  I recommend this whole talk.  
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

Edited May 10, 2017 by LiterateParakeet
edited to add a link to the talk

[Anddenex]

4 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

It appears to me you're full of yourself.

 

This coming from the individual stating "Mormons are weird." This is what is called projecting. You are projecting yourself and your own thoughts and actions upon me. Nice try though.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, NightSG said:

We're back to tautology club again.  If you always have lots of extra money, you'll never be broke, either.

How is "faith leads to salvation" the same idea as "having money means you're not being broke"? The comparison implies that faith is merely another word for salvation.

[Maureen]

31 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

In every case, that I have found, and I do ask and seek the "real reasons" for them leaving the church, it invariably comes down to that person or persons not willing to put forth the effort of obedience to basic commandments, faith in the prophets counsel, and diligence in serving others. Sadly, they always blame it on other reasons like church history, polgymay, the priesthood, patriarchy, etc. But, I have found that in every case you can see multiple areas where they have basic acts of disobedience in their lives.

We all have faults and all have issues we are working on, but, there is a line that is easily seen when living righteously where it stands and how to avoid it. 

So, what you're saying is that you don't believe the reasons people have told you for them leaving. You can't accept the real reasons so you rationalize with other reasons to help it make sense to you.

You can rationalize all you want; but that doesn't make it real.

M.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Godless said:

I agree 100% with this. I ultimately left the church because I came to the realization that I didn't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, but that's nowhere near where my journey to apostasy began. It started with small doubts. I was going beyond just checking off boxes, I genuinely wanted to believe and have a strong testimony. I adhered to the church's commandments to the best of my ability. I gladly participated in any service opportunities I could. I had myself utterly convinced that it was all true. But I didn't feel it on a spiritual level. That's how the little doubts crept in, eventually leading to bigger doubts, and ultimately leading me to the conclusion that I had been fooling myself all along. 

I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again for the benefit of some of our newer members. For many apostates, especially those like me who were born and raised in the gospel, losing a testimony is the hardest and most terrifying experience imaginable. It's no small task to walk away from a worldview that you've known and accepted since you were a small child, not knowing what you're going to replace it with. In my case, my desire for spiritual confirmation went from a yearning to strengthen my testimony of things I had learned to a desperate attempt to cling on to something familiar rather than giving in to the unknown. 10+ years later, I regret nothing. I've reshaped my worldview in a way that makes sense to me and leaves me free of doubt or spiritual thirst. 

This doesn't address whether doubt is a cause or a result.

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Maureen said:

So, what you're saying is that you don't believe the reasons people have told you for them leaving. You can't accept the real reasons so you rationalize with other reasons to help it make sense to you.

You can rationalize all you want; but that doesn't make it real.

M.

Its that I truly seek out the real reasons, not the excuses.

[SilentOne]

In regards to the duty vs. friendship discussion:

I am largely motivated by duty. One thing that I have noticed is that when I decide to do something for my family, it is because I feel it to be my duty. For example, when my grandmother was doing poorly and my family was all taking turns staying with my grandparents to help watch her, I took my turn out of duty, not because I wanted to and not out of some overwhelming feeling of love for her. Was that because I don't love my grandma? For a while, I wondered if that was the case myself.

[zil]

20 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Sorry, it's seen as out of duty, because there is no interest in friendship, at all, until duty calls. Your own example, shows that you did not seek friendship until you were assigned to do so.

Every friendship on the planet was initiated by an external force (e.g. duty calls), not by the willful determination of one or both parties independent of all external forces.  The problem is, people have selected specific external forces as being unacceptable.  Several examples to demonstrate:

1. Parents have children in the same school participating in the same activity.  Parents are present for their children.  Parents strike up a conversation between themselves.  Repeat until friendship ensues.  Were it not for the fluke of school districts and children's ages / interests, this would never have happened.  But this external force is "approved".
2. Two people end up employed at the same company.  Maybe they're in the same department.  Maybe they end up having lunch at the same time.  Whatever.  Their employment triggered interaction which leads to friendship.
3. Two people hang at the same bar / gym / cafe / park / church / etc.  Repeated recognition leads to interaction leads to friendship.
4. People are stranded in the airport while their flight is delayed, or seated next to each other on a long flight, or similar forced encounter.  Sometimes, friendships are made.
5. A delivery person has the same route for years and years.  Engages with some of the people on that route.  Friendships ensue.
6. A person moves into a new house.  They interact with their new neighbors.  Some friendships ensue.
7. A person is assigned as a VTer or HTer.  They interact with new people.  Sometimes, if people's density doesn't prevent it, friendships ensue.

It's very popular in the church to dislike the external force of VT and HT assignments.  I say some people are dense.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Maureen said:

So, what you're saying is that you don't believe the reasons people have told you for them leaving. You can't accept the real reasons so you rationalize with other reasons to help it make sense to you.

You can rationalize all you want; but that doesn't make it real.

M.

Why would one trust the say-so of the apostate over the words of Christ?

You can call it rationalization all you want but that doesn't make it real.

[NightSG]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its that I truly seek out the real reasons, not the excuses.

Well, then tell us how it is with this gift to see so perfectly into the hearts of all men, you haven't brought them all back into the fold?

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Very good question. To me, it's like saying "How do I make someone trust me again after I cheated on them?" Well, the best way to do that is don't cheat on them in the first place. Work on relationships so that you don't get to that point. 

I'm not talking about the active person who has been disaffected by the ward.

I move a lot.  I move into a new ward and am given an inactive household on my home teaching route.  How do I get to know that person without being artificial if I don't know who they are and they don't know who I am?

Check out this video that FP posted: https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/57091-pure-religion-lift/

 

Sometimes "'being assigned" is the start of something real.  But the "assignment" can only progress if it is accepted.  Once both sides accept it, then the love and relationship develop.

[Guest Godless]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This doesn't address whether doubt is a cause or a result.

I think it can be both, depending on the individual. In my case, everything started with doubt. For others, the doubt may be come later as a result of something else, whether it's offense from a leader or fellow member, failure to morally reconcile a church teaching, or any number of other things.